I still have my problem with 6 month old Callie.

She was fully house trained by 12 weeks but I think I overdid the "out in the garden every 10 seconds" scenario :rolleyes:

Because now, at 6 months old, she is perfectly happy to ask to go out, whines, paces, claws at door and as a last resort jumps at my back, but will not go out in the garden on her own.

Admittedly, we moved when she was 4 months, so the routine changed a bit and as I didn't like the security of the garden (have refenced and gated now) I continued going out with her. But now, whenever I take her out in the garden between walks, she stands and looks at me, barks, and if I don't move out from the door will come in again. I tell her to go and do her business and she barks. It's like a stand off, and she's saying to me, "you'll give in first". Stupidly, because I have! :rolleyes: Rods and backs come to mind.

If I shut her out, she barks, climbs up the door, then eventually will wander off, I watch her from the window. Then she will either run around with anything she can find in her mouth, dig, do everything but do what she's out there to do. Then she'll come in after 5/10 mins and we go through the whole process again.

I know this is a problem of my own making, but it is really becoming a problem as she is so dependent in that department.

Up until a month ago, she went through the stage of not coming in when she was told, I remedied this by doing more recall work with her and using a long line. She now comes on  every recall when we're in the garden and house Touch wood, this has solved the problem but I am still not confident enough to rely on recall when we're out so I won't do it until we have had much more practice. To my detriment, have been down this road with Mm and have learnt from my mistakes.

I've never had this problem with the other dogs that I've had, as they were all quite happy to go off and do it when told, at this age.

Bearing in mind it's my fault, can someone give me a gentle nudge in the right direction as I really need to solve it now. I'm not after abandoning her for hours on end out there, but it would  be nice to do as I do with monsterman and open the door, let her out for quick business and then in. :)

This is simple.   Continue to go out with her to the garden.    Stop worrying about her having to go out on her own.   What the heck does it matter.  At least if you go out with her you will know when she has been.  

Seddie, the issue is not whether she has been or not, as I said in my original post, she was housetrained at 12 weeks! Her cleanliness in the house is not in question.

If I was happy to go out in the garden with her then it wouldn't be a problem and I wouldn't have posted. But I'm not happy to do this, Different strokes for different folks as they say, but all of my dogs have been capable of going for a wee on their own without needing me to hold their paws and I expect her to do the same.

This is an overdependence problem that I have created and simply must break!.

Hi HP,

I'm going through this to a degree with my youngster - who is twice Callia's age - and like you have only myself to blame :rolleyes: although even more so because my Manic Madam didn't have the upheaval that you and your family and dogs had to go through with flitting home!  Mine is basically just a spoiled brat :P  I'm currently persevering with not rising to every occasion that she decides she may need to go out and relieve herself (she's 100% house trained so soiling indoors is not an issue) - half the time she just wants to play but insists I come right on out there too.   I've been quite strict for 3 weeks now and only in the last four/five days she's showing signs of improvement so I'll let you know if it actually works or if I'm simply kidding myself on.

I can understand your frustration because having put all the time and effort into house training and making a successful job of it insofar as asking out was concerned, like you I'm wondering if I've over done it a bit this time - although her behaviour has only changed to this in the last say two months so I'm guessing there could have been mixed signals sent/received around that time or some event that I simply overlooked.

If I come up with any alternative suggestions that look promising I'll happily share and please feel free to do likewise!   Good luck, Teri :)   

It's good to know that it's not just me that has this problem Teri ;)

I have been analysing her behaviour and now realise that the problem lays slightly deeper. :(

Just before we lost Ella, I was cracking the "escort to the garden bit"  although she wasn't perfect, she was a lot better than she is now. After Ella, I think that I became the "overprotective mummy" because I was scared that she would somehow get out and suffer the same fate as my baby. She obviously sensed this and being the bitch that she is, has played on it because I have made it become the norm. :rolleyes:

We took a step further back this morning, OH took her out, (for a change he was actually here) and she wouldn't go until I went out, yet again I have mollycoddled her *slap myself round the head*

She is the second most perceptive bitch that I've had and she is picking up signals from me that I'm not even aware of giving out. ie, worry, insecurity over her safety.

>half the time she just wants to play but insists I come right on out there too.<  

Tell me about it :rolleyes: :P

I have started standing in the doorway and then progressing back to the hall and quitely shutting the door and then the little minx decides she's going to go out of sight round to the back of the house and then greets me at the kitchen window looking like something out of "nightmare on elm street" :D :D

Like you, if I find something earth shattering that works, I'll let you know :)

Hi,

If you want to make the situation work for you, I suggest you try the following.

I don't think Callie is behaving this way to make it difficult for you; maybe she simply doesn't want the toilet when she whines at the door but wants to go outside with you. If she doesn't like to be outside without you, then she is getting what she wants when you give in after 5 or 10 minutes and let her in. If I were you, I would wait by the window, even if you have to wait an hour, for her to relieve herself. As soon as she does, let her back in and give her lots of attention. Continue to do this again and again until she relates relieving herself to being let back in. Don't give in when she begins to dig or carry things around and make a general mess... this is giving her the message that destructive behaviour = being let back in. If you ignore this behaviour and reinforce relieving herself, she should begin to go to the toilet more quickly so she can come back inside to you faster.

There is a chance she enjoys this destructive behaviour, in which case the advice I have given won't work, but I doubt it as she whines to get back in rather than running enthusiastically to begin this behaviour immediately. More likely you have unintentionally reinforced this behaviour so that Callie thinks this will get her back inside faster. Help her to understand what is expected of her using her desire to re-enter the house as your reinforcer, and you should soon have a happy dog, and be a happy owner.

Good luck :)

Makes perfect sense..................thank you :) :) Sometimes when you are too close to a situation, you can't see "the wood for the trees".

You are right in that ignoring undesirable behaviour is the quickest way to stop it. My breed have a particular tendency to eat stones, mud and all kinds of cr*p and when I had my first one, I made a big deal out of it and he did it even more to get attention. With Callia, I have always ignored her and she stopped it very quickly ;) She's into "trophy carrying" and I was pretty disgusted when she presented me with a lump of fresh poo a few weeks ago as I was hanging the washing out (she didn't eat it, just paraded with it) :( But..............I ignored her..........and guess what........she's never done it since.

I should know that being firm and reinforcing with consistency will always win the day. Sometimes, it has to get worse before it gets better. Thanks once again :)

Glad I could help HP, let us know how it goes! :)

We only allow our pups into certain sections of the garden as most pups will end up eating rubbish or doing them selves some sort of harm if left unsupervised.Why don't you get your husband to wire off a suitable section with an enclosure gate.I could not cope with allowing my pups to run everywhere and anywhere in our garden,which admittedly is pretty large.

All dogs are different and I believe we humans should adapt to their needs instead of expecting every dog to adapt to ours.  Maybe you did exacerbate the problem because you were worried.  That is not your fault and anyone else would have probably done the same.  But that has happened and cannot be changed and I think that if your pup for whatever reason needs you to go in the garden then you should.   Maybe it is overdependence but it is still an emotional need and the pup needs to learn more independence gradually, and should be given time and support on this.   I am not criticising - my only reasons for posting on forums is to help people and their dogs live more harmoniously with eachother.

I'm not sure of everything that's happened, but it may be that she just associates you being with her and going to the loo - and in her mind, "needs" you there before she can go. So when you aren't there, she tries to get attention to get you out there. I'm not sure if I've explained that very well, it's still early :P but she seems to be wanting everything to be "right" for her to do her business, in her own mind. She doesn't now understand what is going on. If she was a human, maybe she'd be a Virgo star sign :P

I reckon in fact, you could gradually wean her off this, but it may need someone to look at what is happening first hand to offer advice :)

Good luck!
Lindsay
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Yes Lindsay, you have explained it very well ;)

I probably need to stand back and try and see it through different eyes.

She is quite capable of going on her own when she's playing with Murfee, she'll just stop and do what comes naturally. I've had dogs before (particularly bitches) where they won't go when they're out on the lead, so I made a point of always taking them out on the lead for a while so that they were desperate and had no choice.

I do think that it is partly a confidence problem, for eg, when we're out and about she sticks to my leg whilst on lead and is watching me constantly. But on the other hand, there is definitely a little devil aspect to her :P Attention seeking!

I agree with your last statement, I do need someone to look at what is happening first hand otherwise I'll have a harder job weaning her off the behaviour. :)

Would it be an option just to leave the door open for a while? If she's clean in the house she'll take herself outside when she actually needs to go.

Thanks for the suggestion Havoc :)

I tried this a few weeks ago, to start with she wandered out and came back in and then.........stayed in with me :(

Then when she wanted to go, tugged at my sleeve and went to the door and barked at me :P I shouldn't laugh and I didn't.......well not out loud anyway. I didn't go out with her so she kept on pestering until I pretended that I needed to go out there ( I went into the shed and then pulled some weeds up) low and behold, she went :rolleyes:

I still leave the door open on days that it's not raining, so........you never know, maybe given more time. :)

Trouble is, she holds herself for such a long time if I don't go out with her, I'm sure she's going to burst, this is why I always give in :(

>I pretended that I needed to go out there ( I went into the shed and then pulled some weeds up) low and behold, she went

Sounds very familiar to me :rolleyes: that's one of my tricks too!  I think we picked girls that are just too smart HP (and mine is unashamedly spoiled rotten so I have to hold my hands up to it being self inflicted)

I have been making slight progress by not dancing the same attention on her but I've a feeling she's just working me :D

Teri :P

Manipulation is Callies second name, Teri :D :D

There is something you could try ...depending on the normal set up. Does she expect you to be close to her, or does she associate you with a particular part of the garden whilst she "performs"?

You could try going out with her as normal, but gradually not going out as far, so go out almost to where she expects you, then maybe the same next day, then maybe 6 inches towards the house, and so on;  and it's possible that over a period of a few weeks, she would be able to go on her own. You could also try "capturing" the odd time you do see her going without you, and chuck her a treat out of the window or summat  (so don't actually go out to be with her <g>).

Alternatively, has she been scared by noises or fireworks? It's not unusual for dogs to get very worried about the whole garden thing if a bang has occurred whilst theyve been in the middle of "going"!

Teri, sounds like you're having fun  :D

Lindsay
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This worked for me, with my rescue dog.

Hi Lindsay,

>Teri, sounds like you're having fun <

You can probably tell that I don't reallyview anything the little madam does as a problem - she's so darn cute that she just makes me laugh and even when she being a pest I still say "but she's precious!"  :D  Guess the fact is I quite like my dogs being naughty and a touch eccentric  -  I'm sure we share some of the same DNA as they get more like me everyday :P 

Teri ;)

Hi Teri

I reckon I have a very similar relationship with Banya ;)
She's very much allowed her "say" in things and we sometimes disagree, but we have such fun together and i don't ever want the sort of dog which is an automaton. I like "character" and we all know BSDs have plenty of that :D I have a video of her in her first trial, kindly filmed by a friend, and she's bouncing along and barking like a mad dog during the last part of the heelwork because she was telling me it was jolly well time for her kong to appear - I hope to get her over this, as yoiu can lose marks in higher stakes for that; but I dont really "mind" if that makes sense!!

Lindsay
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This is something that I've considered Lindsay :)

And have kind of implemented, I've stood by the door and not moved instead of inching back towards the door. The little madam has then got fed up with me not dancing to her tune and virtually peed on my foot :P as if to say, "there, take it out of that"!!!

She associates me with a particular part of the garden whilst she performs, she's quite happy to wander off into her corners and get on with it, just as long as I'm standing there like a statue for her :rolleyes: I feel like I'm part of the garden furniture now.

As far as I know, she's never been scared by bangs or fireworks as the 2 homes that we've lived in are totally isolated, apart from sheep and tractors!

yesterday/today I've been putting her out and closing the door and as I can see her from most windows, I've never really worried, but this morning, she found a big tree that I can't see behind.............and stayed there (laughing at me) :D  oh well, back to the drawing board, but I'll implement your suggestion to the letter now and see if I can crack it :)

Thanks for all the suggestions :)

Well, good luck! Hope it goes well :)

Lindsay
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