Is it the norm to show dogs even if they have faults what are unwonted in the breed standard?

While on the internet looking at photos of dogs who have been placed in shows and past champions in books, i can see obvious faults, so how come they get placed especially if they are going to breed the next generation of pups, with these obvisous faults.i do know that know dog is perfect but surely to god they should be as close to the standard as possible and i'm know where near to qualifing as a judge(in a dream maybe) but i can spot them.  Any opinions welcome.

Warm regards Susan

All dog will have faults and failings.  Some will be serious enough, or very heritable, and these are the kind that would preclude a dog from bieng bred form if there are better animals to choose from.

Breed standards were generally drawn up with the ideal in mind, and what the stock that the breed founders started with may have been way off the mark, but they strove towards it.

There are cosmetic faults that are easy to pick out, but if the amunal is excellent in all other departments even this can mean they shoudl be used for breeding as the mismark or what have you may be once of the ose chance things, or at least one would hope that you could breed one as good with the luck not to have the cosmetic failing.

On the other hand some structural faults should not be bred from, as they will affect the dogs quality of life or fitness for the breeds purpose.

If you read the UK standards you will find there are no disqualifying faults just a statement that they should be taken into account accordign to their degree.

In some other countries there are faults for which a dog will be disqualified.  In my breed for example any dog more than a certyain amount over or under ideal height would be disqualified.

Thanks Brainless for your answer, whats your views on a straight stifle?  Also in your breed does the judge measure them on entering the class or do they just estimate.

Warm regards Susan.

You also have to bear in mind that a photograph, is but a moment in time, and may not catch the dog looking their best :-)

On the matter of stifles, some dogs in some breeds can 'straighten' themselves on the stand, whilst having an adequate bend when relaxed or on the move

dont forget it depends on who else is in the line up
the chosen dog may be the best of  a bad bunch ;)

Dont i know about photographs i've judged a few dogs on what they look like in a photograph and thought it wasn't my taste only to see it in the flesh and think wow.  Some food for thought ay.

Warm regards Susan.

The camera certainly can lie when it comes to dogs frank!! 
I've seen an awful dog looking brilliant in a carefully taken photograph, and a beautiful dog, caught by the camera looking like a growbag!!

In Norway all the dogs are measured and those too big or too small are excused from the ring.  Th rest are graded, and there is criteria for each grade. http://www.nkk.no/cmnkk/public/openIndex/view/page1.html?ARTICLE_ID=1097239019202  Only the Excellent or First Quality dogs are placed.

In the UK the exhibits are simply placed in order of merit.  The only quality judgement is made when choosing whether or not to award a CC.  The judge signs to say that the exhibit is in their opinion of such outstanding quality as to be worthy of the title champion.

Generally in the UK competition within breeds is strong enough for totally unworthy dogs not to win high awards as there are bound to be quality ones there.  In other countries where entries at shows may be much smaller the grading does at least ensure that even if a dog has no competiton it cannot if the quality is lacking.  It also confirms if a dog is a good one even if there is no competition for it.

Straight stifles for examples would be correct in a chow.  My own breed calls for little but definate bend at stifle and hock.  The hind foot when the dog stands with hocks perpedicular to the ground should only be just behind the root of tail.  In other breeds this would be considered too straight.  The kind of angulation required in say a Rottie would be wrong for my breed.

Brainless, you say that all dogs are measured in Norwegian showrings? Well, I am Norwegian, and whilst I do not know what is the case with Norwegian Elkhounds, that is generally not the case. In my breed (whippets), only occasionally do you see judges measure dogs, and quite a few oversized dogs have been awarded their championships. Still, the FCI system of judging is quite different from the KC. It allows the judge to more accurately describe the quality of each dog. Whether the system is always used to its full potential is a different matter. I do think some judges would find it hard to withhold the CC in numerically small breeds, even if the dogs entered at a show are of mediocre quality.

Sorry I did mean in my breed :D

Very interesting points. In our breed incorrect tails are now becoming common place in the show ring :( You are lucky if you get 1 or 2 dogs in a class of 10 - 12 which have a correct tail set. It completely changes the look of the dog.

This is where I feel that a judge should penalise a fault that is becoming entrenched harder than they would the same fault in another breed where it didn't occur often.  I feel that the degree of a fault applies equally to how comon it is in the entry as to how bad it is in an individual.  Or maybe I mean that dogs not displaying this fault should be placed higher (assuming they are as good in other points).

I fully agree - however tail set is considered minor compared to other parts of a dogs conformation so it is getting overlooked :( It is a great shame, though a few breeders are trying to maintain good tail set in their dogs along with good confrmation - these I applaud.

I would to Ice Cosmos, i believe confirmation is paramount for me, Hey Brainless i just had a sneaky peak on your site, as i haven't got a clue what Elkhounds look like, i like your site it's very professional and i bet people researching your breed would definitely seek you out for a pup, your dogs are lovely and it's great the way you've put their pedigree up with their health tests.  Definitely a trustworthy breeder.  I've looked on CD many a time about a thousand at bullmastiff breeders and i've never ever came accross a site like yours it's excellent, not many of them do health tests which is a shame.  Well you've gave me something to aspire to.  Your dogs look very healthy and happy also.

Warm regards Susan.

1st (prize): Typical and sound. A dog of pronounced merits with unessential faults. "A very good representative of the breed".

Well i've just learnt something new, i know this sounds stupid but i never new 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on had a little criteria to meet.  I just thought the 1st dog counted.  Also Brainless how come your junior dog classes start from 15 months old, in the Bullmastiff it starts from 12 months to 18 months, i'm going to have to go now my beds shouting me i'm supposted to be going to London tomorrow so i've got an early start, if i can get up that is.

Warm regards Susan

Susan
I own elkhounds too and our Junior classes are like everyone elses...dogs aged 6-18 months are elligible.
Archer

Yep if you read the post I posted th Link to Norwegian judging rules showing how they grade dogs.  then I comparted this with our system wher primarily numbers help sort the wheat from the chaff.

No these criteria are for QUALITY gradings used aborad, in this case Norwasy.  it is only after they have been graded that the FIRST quality dogs are placed in order of merit.

We don't do this in the UK the dogs are placed in order of merit regardless of quality, though a judge can withold 1st to third place for lack of merit, and if they do that then no other prize can be give, but a Best of Breed and Best puppy if there is oen still ahve to be declared.

Just potty about the dogs and the breed, no more than most of our breeders aspire to.  Maybe one of the few advantages of having a breed that is hardly known (though they have been ehr since the 1870's), we don't find too many puppy farmers find them worth breeding, thiough sadly a few still come through sold through large retail outlets.  It is nice that all breed club members test all the breeding stock.  Also give a much truer picture of the breeds health when around 20% of al pups born are hip scored and eye tested.

As many people have said all dogs have faults.  Some faults can be hidden with good handling, some faults can be made worse with bad handling, some cracking top dogs could look like a sack of potatoes with ultra bad handling!

With referance to straight in stifle, That could be the dogs only fault, but it could still move well, and possibly still work!

A little tip I'm sure you have already learnt, unless your putting your hands on a dog don't judge it, you wouldn't believe how many faults can be hid by grooming etc!  Think about poodles...a poodle in a "pants" trim (don't know what it's called) could have a straight stiffle, with grooming could look over angulated!!!!  (just an example of extreams!!!! :D )

Also don't forget past champions may be afew generations gone and back then they where the best!  The breed has just improved (which is what everyone hopes for!!!!)

As for photo's I have a photo on the cover of the breed club newsletter and the dog looks crap (went BIS at last open breed show and is a Sh.Ch.) Looked at another photo of him on the net and he looks wonderful (he is wonderful)

Another point is photo's can work both ways.  You can look at a photo and go "wow" and then you hear a little tip off that the photo has been digitally enhanced...It does happen, saw in a year book once, unfortantly someone wasn't the greatest on the computer... LOL

If you want to judge I say you shoudl start now.  GO on judging seminars of the breeds you are intrested in, if you don't pass then you know your not ready to judge yet!!!!!  Also talk to people, if you ahve any friends who judge, and see about getting an appointment at a companion dog show.  We do this for many people who are intrested in judging when we have already got appointments!

Thanks for the advice ice cosmos but i think i'll wait until i've been around the circuit a few times first, it's easy for me to compare in books and judge them at the moment but not the real thing, although it does get me going the thought of it, so i'll just see how i get on, it's all new to me at the moment showing that is.  I can't wait for Blackpool though on Sunday to see all the dogs what enter into the show.

Warm regards Susan

I know Archer i read that articule about two oclock last night and i was very tired, so i was just skim reading it.

Warm regards Susan