I have just mosied through the local paper and out of 14 ads for pedigree puppies, 8 of them said they had "excellent pedigree". Now this is a real bug-bear of mine....what the hell is excellent pedigree supposed to mean???? One day I am going to ring up one of these ads and ask them....i bet the answer will be hilarious! Does this annoy anyone else or is it just me?

You have a point Sam, I have always thought that pedigree meant ' the line of ancesters' and if it does then any animal who's forbearers are know could be said to be "a pedigree animal". But that is not what we mean when we speak of a Pedigree Dog. So although good or excellent pedigree means nothing at all in fact, we all probably know what is meant or implied by the term. Jackie H

I always love the term "Thoroughbred (insert breed) dog/puppy." Huh????? ;) ;) It's a common term in the US for some strange reason.
toodles

Difficult, as when we plan a mating we fel that it is an excellent pedigree! LOL :D

My thought exactly Barbara :-). My definition of 'excellent pedigree' wouldn't necessarily depend on how much red is on it, more on how much the breeder knows about the dogs in it, and their reasons for using that dog over that bitch.

Couldn't agree more Sharon, plus I like to check all the BVA records for the dogs in the pedigree.

Polly, my breed tends to be short lived, so I'm slightly obsessed by poring through pedigrees of putative breeding stock for long lived relatives and relative freedom from cardiomyopathy, osteosarcoma and bloat (in that order), and then looking out for relatives with PSS, OCD etc. I'll take a sound typical but unspectacular hound with aged relatives and few incindences of those conditions in the vertical and horizontal pedigree, above Ch.30 CCs (Phillipa's favourite :-)), any day.

There are many breeds which have problems, so I do always check. Flatcoats are known to have cancer problems as well as glaucoma, among the problems which I know have cropped up. I have been very lucky as apart from an accident, all my flatcoats have lived to 11 years and over, the oldest being 16+ years. There are many whose flatcoats which don't make it past their 9th birthday!
Another reason I study the pedigree's closely is because so many people do not understand breeding or pedigrees. At the moment in my breed you would be very hard to find a show dog with out Shargleam Blackcap in it's pedigree, and on the working side, Tarncourt Cavalier. Both were very, very good dogs, but as our gene pool was small to begin with, the constant close line breeding to these dogs is a worrying trend. It has been suggested by veterinary friends that if we don't use stud dogs & bitches with less of these dogs in the pedigrees we might be in need of out crossing to another breed in the next 15 - 20 years, as the lines we should be using now are disappearing fast. Understanding the pedigree, the health of dogs in that pedigree and what related dogs are like is the key to being a breeder with "excellent" pedigree dogs. You are very wise to check everything out.

Polly, I'm with you on the 'popular sire syndrome' (that's why Phil's Ch.30 CC's was invented :-)). In breeds with a small gene pool there always seem to be one or two Ch.30 CC's on the go, and excellent though they may be in themselves, if one turns out to be throwing problems down the line it can prove well nigh impossible to get away from him.

My definition of 'improving the breed' will probably raise a few eyebrows. Always providing that breeding stock is typical, sound and without grave departures from the standard, as far as I'm concerned, breeding towards healthy longevity and away from inheritable conditions rates far higher in improving the breed than does simple show ring success. In small gene pool breeds, I also think it important that future breeders are left with somewhere to go if the current Ch. 30 CCs turns out to have a problem, or if he (or his kennel) is/are used so much that he/they end up changing the breed.

Sharon, my eyebrows are in the same position as yours :) If only more breeders thought the same way. What on earth is the point of having a dog that is totally wonderful to look at, but has nothing else to go with it. Give me a sound minded, healthy happy dog anytime. I dont care if it is slightly of course for the breed standard, those things can be put right quite quickly, not so the severe breed health problems or bad tempers. If you can get the beauty as well and have a really wonderful show dog, then you should count your blessings, but to me, the beauty is only the icing on the cake.

Phil, added to which is the fact that breeding lines do not always mix well, and no matter how good Ch.30 CC's is he will have faults. If your lines don't 'gel' with his, and if his faults, especially the ones you can see coming right down his pedigree, echo the bitches (ditto), then you're probably on a hiding to nothing imo.

Sharon, Ch.30ccs, surely he has no faults at all!!! lol :)

That is the problem. People need to find a complemetary mate for their bitch, one would hope it would be a dog that has won well, as if it is a poor specimin then it won't do the breeder any good, but it doesn't have to be a world beater but should excell in some trait you want to improve in your own breeding. I don't mention Temeperament as as far as i am concerned it is a prerequisite!!!!!! If nothing really good comes out of the planned breeding, at least the Temperament and health should be be good!

Couldn't agree more about using the less popular sires. I have been saying we would be in this mess since the mid 1980's! I'd rather use an unknown and keep a line going than use the latest popular dog, which is what is happening in my breed. However, having done that and got only one puppy from the mating, which was a dog pup, only one person used him at stud during his lifetime, even though he won at CH. level and was a working dog on shoots! The reason being partly a smear campaign being put around by someone in the breed! They were peeved I am invited to work my dogs on the best shoots in the area, they can't get onto these shoots, so I discovered recently had spent the last few years phoning up the people who had booked him at stud, saying they worked with me on the shoots and that he was a badly trained nusiance, who was noisy, bad tempered, and hard mouthed! So why is it I never saw them picking up on these shoots? Mmmmmmm could it be their dogs were not considered good enough by the gamekeepers and shoot owners? It is not just the ignorant who are allowed to breed their dogs sadly, but also the stupid!

Polly, the petty jealousies of dogdom :-(. I suspect that the emphasis on using the latest popular sire may have got worse over the last decade or two. If it has, it might be because most of the big kennels have gone. Whatever you might say against them, the ladies who ran the big kennels were usually stock people to their finger-tips who had been in dogs forever, and as often as not were confident (or arrogant!) enough not to be influenced by passing fads. I also wonder about the wisdom of going for breed record numbers of CCs. Many of the big kennel owners didn't show a dog much after it had been made up because thay always had something new coming on. That way more good, if not always spectacular, dogs got 'exposure', and imo that can only be good .

I agree and will post another topic now re CC's would love your input!

I had always read these ads and never thought about that before ..hmm ...possibly a ploy to get inexperienced people to buy (because obviously and EXCELLENT pedigree is better)

:D

over the years ive rung up and asked exactly what the wonderful pedigree contains, its unbelievable, no-one known or heard of ,but they give you a tale, supposed if you didnt know any better you could be taken in by it all, !!

Yup...thats exactly what I would expect Dizzy....glad its not just me then!

What I find funny is when you talk to novice who has just bred first litter and you say , well what is the pedigree ,and they say she has papers as long,, stretching the arms out fully this .

I too ring up and ask what is excellent Pedigree and find mostly they dont know . Mari

I love the ones who say they are KC registered ,show quality and not one has been inside a show.

Some think KC means they have fought in WW2 or something..

I have seen some crackers of KC dogs Westies that could pass for boxers and labs that could pass for a dobes LOL you know what I mean..

All in fun..

Pam

Heres a good example, man rang an ad for akitas and asked if they were american type, the seller said no mate they are all british !

Hi, just to put the cat among the pigeons, I consider all my dogs to have an excellent pedigree!! :-) I have studied Westie breeding lines for years, watched what works (and does not work) for myself and other people, and both line bred and out crossed when I think it advantageous. I know every stud dog and nearly all the bitches in each of their pedigrees, for 7 or 8 generations back, the majority of whom are Champions or producers of Champions or have a breed point I want to improve on. Now I know that some people say that a red pedigree is not necessarily a good one, and its true if uncompatable dogs are put togther they will not produce good dogs, regardless of the colour of their pedigree. But surely a pedigree that contains many good winners/performers and notable "producers" of simaliar breed type, and probably a good smattering of Champions close up in the pedigree - it can be described as an excellent one. Due to poor health the last few years I have not been able to show much, but my dogs are still show quality, and would sell some as "promising for show", and good coats and mouths allowing, have confidence that they would do well if properly produced even if their mother had not been shown. I have recently sold a dog puppy that I expect to do well for his new owner, neither his mother or his grandmother has been shown, except in puppy classes, but IMO he is top class!! I have my riot shield up and ready!!

Ahh ..but therein lies the rub WestieLover ...to quote you :

I have studied Westie breeding lines for years, watched what works (and does not work) for myself and other people, and both line bred and out crossed when I think it advantageous. I know every stud dog and nearly all the bitches in each of their pedigrees, for 7 or 8 generations back

Therefore you KNOW that your dogs have an excellent pedigree , and if necessary , can prove it. I would accept the description of *Excellent Pedigree* from you because of that fact.

How many of the advertisers can say as much? If I were to ring one of those advertisers up and ask ..What makes this dogs pedigree excellent? what is the bets they will not know , or at most say ..well there are Champions in the pedigree?

:D

heres my interpretation of 'pedigree as long as yer arm'

Here endeth the lesson.
(G Fryer)

I was talking to a man one day,
and here is what he had to say
You should see my dog,you really should,
her pedigree its really good
A Pedigree as long as your arm
And so began the familiar yarn.
A good pedigree how can you tell?
Cos theres names on it that I cant spell !
and so it must be really good
I think Ill put her to a stud.
Well When I saw that man again
I asked about the mating game
Oh that? its really not for me
I couldnt sell the pups you see
I had to give them all away
The bitch,she's going too! Today !!!

:( :( :( :( :( :( :(

An all too familiar tale :( :(

Fiona
x x x

I agree with you Mandy 100%.

I think it is the people who not only know nothing about their breed but know nothing about their line which pose the problem.

I think I told you that just recently I met a lady whilst walking my 2 and we idelly chatted she told me she was a breeder and enquired where I got my 2 and so in..

We got on the subject of grooming and I was telling her my wee bitch had been very hard work as she had been very soft coated but that I had stripped her fully out about 3 times and it had improved.

Well I nearly fainted and her reply she said that is was an old wives tale and the Wesites should not be stripped.. I asked how many Wesites she had and how may litters she had bred . I can remember how many she has but she had bred 5 litters..

It is not only a shame for pups ( They are sold with the wrong advice etc) but a shame for the breed..

but I guess this is not new nor will it be the last.

bfn Pam

Who is Mandy?

:D

Melody

Westie Lover! or Schip!

Opps sorry, I ope it doesn't matter but it was mandy..sorry WL...

See me and the things I do...this is mild.

Pam

Hey, Westie Lover, I hope thats my precious "Cookie" you are talking about, he has a super coat, been stripped out twice, coat coming in nicely now at 4 months old (already) typical terrier, typical puppy into everything, very loving, gives kisses most of the time ah!!!! looking forward to getting him into the show ring, then we shall see !!!!!!!!! Like his name everyone, Cookie, is named after Miss Freda Cook of the famous Famecheck kennel as his sire is last of the Famecheck Champions. so heres hoping !!!!

Hi Irene, yes I was referring to the wonderful Cookie, the apple of our eyes!! Hope you dont mind me talking about him "in public". I was just making the point that just because a puppy's mum and granny had barely been in a show ring, didn't mean that it couldn't be show quality. I have hardly shown since the early 90's but have been beavering away quietly, and hopefully improving generation by generation. I do know what other posters meant though re: excellent pedigree, the term is bandied about and I also see annoying adverts that portray a puppy as better quality/potential than it really is/has. But it has been known for a star to come from an inexperienced breeder who has good luck with thei r first mating, its not only the CH, show judges that breed stock worth having. Although I have been "in" Westies a while, am not very well known really, but hopefully still produce good stock, even though few people have actually seen them lately!! I just wish the NHS would get their finger out (!) and get me better, then there would be no stopping me! Cookie will start his show career soon, and I wish you all the luck in the world Irene, I'm so glad that you have got him and know you will produce him as well as he could be. I just wish I could breed a bitch to keep for me - seems to be dogs, dogs, dogs lately!!! Do others find its easier to breed a good dog than a bitch?