Hi everyone!
I am new to this forum but have been reading the fantastic forum topics over the last three weeks or so.  We have added a new addition to our family, Taffie, a sweet little shih tzu who is now twelve weeks old on sunday.  The question I have is how to effectivley socialise Taffie with other dogs.  We went to our local park today, for our first walk.  Taffie decided it would be better to just sit and watch all the other dogs and not budge one inch!! I was quite happy with that as I am letting him get the feel of being out of his comfort zone at home .  There was however a couple of really big dogs who were off the lead.  I was really concerned about the dogs rushing over to Taffie. I know nothing negative, hopefully, would happen ( although I am so shocked readinga bout poor little Tizzy the cocker's attack)but i found myself really anxious. i really need some advise as i would hate for Taffie to pick up some bad vibes from me!! May be i need the training?!! We also met up later with a friend who has a boxer puppy 16 weeks old.  There is a great difference in size and the fact that the boxer puppy is really quite easily excitable.  Taffie was really good, observing her from a distance.  The boxer pup was all over him.  Paws in the face, mouthing excessively and rolling or bundling Taffie to the floor and pinning him down with all her weight and with her mouth wrapped around his throat!. All normal behaviour I know, but Taffies reaction was to constantly nip her mouth eyes and ears as a defense method.  It got really exhausting! Is this normal behviour of two young puppies? Where do the boundaries lie? Boxer mum says let them work it out between them, but I am really worried they will hurt each other, should I consider not mixing the two puppies until a little older. I really don;t want to do the wrong thing by Taffie by allowing him to nip the head and face of boxer pup in fear he will think it accptable to do it to other dogs in the future.  Am I heading for trouble?!! All advise would be greatfully appreciated. Tams

Hi Tams,

Welcome to CD :)   The best way to socialise your new puppy is to take him to puppy training classes - your vet may be able to advise of classes in your area.  They usually last for around 6-10 weeks and help young pups get used to meeting other dogs of similar age but of course varied size, breed, character etc get used to one another in a controlled environment.  Good classes are well organised and also will help owners teach basic commands, overcome any house training or lead walking difficulties etc and generally assist both the owners and the pups to be more relaxed in what are every day situations.

If you don't have a puppy class near you (sometimes they are booked in advance) contact your local library and ask if there are any other training classes held in your area. Go along in advance - without your puppy - and see if you like how things are run.  That is no shouting or pulling around of the dogs - training should always be fun and based on motivation and reward, never harsh correction or force.  If you like what you see, have a chat to the trainer and ask if there is a suitable class for your puppy and explain your concerns.  Any good trainer will be happy to assist if they are able.  Good luck, Teri :)

Thanks Teri,
I have made enquiries about puppy training and there is a course starting on the 11th July so hopefully there will be some places left. Two friends will be taking their dogs one will be the boxer pup, the other a two year old setter who has found himself in his teenage years with the stroppiness that goes with it!!I hope this meeting yesterday will not affect the way in which Taffie behaves, I suppose time will tell? Tams

Hi again Tams,

In the meantime don't stop your puppy playing with his Boxer friend - this play sounds perfectly normal :)  Puppies are rough and if the Boxer puppy has him pinned down your little guy is playing back with him using the limited tactics he has in that situation :P  But it doesn't mean he'll suddenly develop this further and use it as a means to meet and greet every other canine.  The more supervised socialisation youngsters can get with puppies similar in age to themselves and quieter, calm and known to be patient adult dogs the better - go for it.  It is dogs which are given insufficient puppy socialising or inappropriate free access to dogs with poor temperaments who grow up not knowing how to behave themselves and that's what creates problems.

Regards, Teri :) 

Hi Tams

I take Oscar (13 week old Shih Tzu) to a puppy class where he meets puppies of different size etc. But I have the same worries as you about letting strange big dogs near him, they look so much bigger and one mistake could be a disaster.

We went to the beach on Saturday and a family with 5 Rotties came on and two of the Rotties went straight for Oscar who was asleep under my legs, I ended up wrestling two fully grown Rotties (one growling at me) to get them away from my puppy. The owner just swore at me and said " it deserves to die it's not even a proper dog" and then proceeded to let his 5 dogs cr*p all over the beach.

How do you keep little dogs safe?

That guy sounds like an a**hole!

Hi everyone,
Good advice, keep it coming!!! I have arranged to meet up with another friend with two berm. mountain dogs, one of which is  real laid back one and another younger more livlier one, both beautifuul temprements. So I hope this helps. I am also arranging for a friend with a collie to call on her evening walk to accompany us as Taffie doesn't seem to know what to do when we go out for a walk other than lie on the grass verge an not budge! It feels like I have a puppet not a puppy!! Caz I know what you mean about comments such as " Get a proper dog," it usually comes from men with what they think it a "Hard looking dog"! Overcompensating for being a complete A**hole. Ignore their ignorence, don't worry, your puppy won't!Taffie is also a 13 week old shih tzu.A real sweetie.x

You sound like you're doing really well with the socializing, Oscar is only mixing with dogs at his puppy class but he doesn't seem fazed by them. To be honest he seems to prefer our cat, who loves dogs and plays really well with him.

The most important thing for me is that Oscar is child proof and so far so good. The kids are constantly cuddling him and playing with him and strange kids at school are always handling him so I don't think I can be doing much more!

Hi Tams,

The age that your pup is at is really crucial.  If she has a bad experience now, she may remember it for the rest of her life.  It may cause her to be aggressive in response to other dogs (I'll get him first, before he's got a chance to get me), so be really really careful.

On the other hand, don't be over-protective because your pup needs to socialise with other dogs off lead - but these MUST be other safe dogs, with no aggressive tendencies and who don't play too roughly, if your pup isn't into rough play yet.

'Healthy' puppy play involves turn-taking.  This means that the other pup will chase her for a while, then run away and she will chase the other pup.  It is unhealthy and dangerous if either your pup is always chasing the other one (yours is learning to be a bully) or if the other one is always chasing yours (yours is learning that other dogs are bullies).  If you see play going in either of these directions, get your pup away asap.  If either pup makes a pained squealing noise, it's probably becoming too excited and physical and should be stopped - this is not to be confused with excited barking, which is a normal part of play.

There are a few other things: Try to avoid letting other dogs approach yours off lead.  This is very bad manners on the part of the other dog's owners - how do they know that your dog isn't vicious, for example?  The rule of thumb is that if you see a dog onlead, you should put yours on lead also, until you have spoken to the owner and asked if the other dog is safe for them to sniff each other and say hello.  Sometimes there's nothing you can do about it, and other dogs will come up to yours.  Try to stand between your pup and the other dog and eye-ball the other dog.  When the owner comes on the scene, say something about how you don't appreciate other dogs rushing up to yours off lead. 

If I were you, I'd try to avoid going to places where you know strange dogs will be until your pup is past the very impressionable socialisation period, maybe even as long as 6 months.  Your pup should get plenty of safe socialisation at training classes, and it's best not to risk what a strange dog's response will be....

Thanks for the adivce, It's exactly what I am worrying over. I am playing it cautiously at the moment as they are both puppies its hard to determine the boundaries of boxer pups having so much more energy than shih tzus therefore continuing to rough play for longer.  Boxer pup is playing submissively by laying belly up at times but poor Taffie has no where to escape to as she stands over himand is much much faster. We are off to puppy socilaisation class tonight at the local riding stables so he will mix with puppies older dogs already in class and some horses, should be interesting?!! He met with his brothers at the weekend ages 1, 2 and Taffie 13 weeks and had a lovely time with a very good relationship with both. Regards Tams x

Hi Tams

I think the difference in size of the pups, and 'play' style is important, and personally I wouldn't subject my pup to a boxer. I've nothing against boxers (before everyone gets their guns out), it's just that they are exuberant, athletic and totally OTT! If your pup can't escape, or get some respite, then it's not an enjoyable experience, and at his age they need totally positive experiences. I avoid a young boxer in the park with my pup, simply for that reason. I also am aware that my male GSD pup of 15 weeks is too much for example for a cavalier pup we meet, they're the same age - but same thing happens, my pup is in control and vastly outsizes the cav and the cavalier can't be enjoying it, so I don't let my pup play with the cav.

Kat

I can't agree more with chinablue!

I never allowed my dogs to mingle with anything toy sized unless they were on the lead, they just didn't realise their size and would most definitely play to what most would amount to 'rough' when its perfectly normal behaviour for a pup their size.

They can still have an enjoyable experience on the lead as they can off (all that bum sniffing but you are in control).

Well we went to have a look at the puppy training classes and also the intermediate classes. Taffie was brilliant, he greeted all the dogs with their owners permission positively. It was a really enjoyable time. I have signed up to classes starting on the 11th July, and boxer pup is booked in too.Hmmmm! As we were at the payment desk one of the trainers was aprehensive of Taffie approaching her GSD as he had negative experiences with litttle dogs nipping him, a worry that I am trying to avoid Taffie becoming, but he was fine with Taffie who plonked himself ( with op permission and guidence) next to the GSD. The principal trainer had just fininshed the class and could not believe that they were sitting comfortably next to each other, so much so that she took a photo !! Taffie has a really good gentle nature. Boxer pup is the only dog so far with an overwhelming desire to lick Taffie constantly over and above all the other dogs!! The funny thing is she will stand over Taffie as if guarding him or maybe to say He's my friend not yours. Is boxer pup behaving normally?? she seems a little possesive of him!!?? Taffie gives as good as he gets in the nipping depatment if she gets too much, but she does not seem to give up so I have to separate them to give Taffie some respite. I am still extremely worried about this situation, and as boxer pups mum is a good friend and we see each other alot. Suggestions of walking the dogs together more often has been made but Taffie can't walk as he is constantly bundled to the floor so I avoid it!! The other advise is let them work it out between them, I personally don't think this is a good idea as I am sure one of them will get hurt. Without offending my friend should I avoid getting them together?? !! We have met dogs of all shapes and sizes walking and playing with no social problems otherwise.  Any dog trainers advise greatly appreciated!Ta!

I would not avoid them being together only supervise as you ahve done and break things up if Taffie is getting tired. 

Also at this age they both only need about 15 minutes actual walking so this should be used by your freind to teach Boxer girl that she must not interfere with and jump on Taffie.

It is very much like supervising the play of a toddler with older siblings.  You would never ever not allow them to play together, but you would supervise and laso teacht eh older ones to go gently.

I ahve a medium size breed who are bold and energetic and very sociable and they are taught 'gently' and 'leave' from an early age.  As they are an independent breed and can be prone to selective hearing this at least ensures if they do go up to other dogs they do not over face them.  I have also foudn a 'walk on' command useful when meeting dogs on a path, as it allows for a quick polite sniff and hello but they can be quickly moved on so that the other dogt doesn't get worried. 

This is important in my case as I have five dogs, and I don't want them all saying hello at once to the dogs we meet.

Agree on the points Onetwothree made.   Just one further point - a socialisation programme must be geared towars the individual temperament of the puppy concerned.    A confident pup would need a different programme than one that was slightly nervous.     Confident pups need telling off by adult dogs, for example, whereas with nervous ones it is best that they aren't.  Never force any pup to mix with others if it does not want to.   Pups must be allowed to take things at their own pace.