From past experience...
In Junior Handling ive seen such bad losers, i can understand the younger ones getting upset... they are only kids and wont to win and dont see why they havent. But latley i saw a small boy get second in a class and beat some good handlers, ok maybe he shouldnt of beaten certain people but i couldnt belive it he came up to me later and said my parents said i didnt deserve it, they said i shouldnt of got anywhere! Luckily the boy wasnt to bothered but i thought people were ment to encourage their children!!

Also a while back at Crufts in the junior handling, a boy didnt get placed ok he wasnt the best handler in there and good handlers wun but he came out upset but then his (what i persume) dad came up to him and had a go at him for not gettin placed..isnt this a bad example for him to set his kids!! Then at a numerous other shows after that i heard him moaning that he should of wun the class!

Just thought id share that with you!

It is sad.  Must admit I used to get upset when younger (first starting) but now I'm fine! :D  If I got no where in the class I would never here the end of it.  :D  And boy the nember of times my parents have told me and my brother we didn't deserve a place (including at crufts and richmond!) but it's all done to remind us that our performance was rubbish on the day.  My dad used to watch carefully and pick up all our faults and make us do it again and again in training, but never once was nasty about it.  But he would tell the truth.  Well I can't complain can I when I now get paid to handle! LOL

year or two ago at richmond I got a place and my brother didn't even make the cut.

However younger handlers should be encouraged.  I'm now 17, my brother 15 and we do just fine being told our faults, when we were in the younger age group it was all encouragement!

Now speaking from the other side as a parent of a JH if my daughter doesn't try her hardest yes I do 'have words' especially iif shes been in the breed ring.I have given up handling because my daughter wants to do it but I still pay the £20 per class so I expect her to do her best.I have once gotten angry with her when she lost her temper(only mildly but enough to notice) and I will not have her losing her temper with the dogs.
I do agree....JH's should be encouraged...and encourage I do but also as in everything if things aren't right points need to be made.
I have never,and would never ,tell my daughter she didn't deserve her placing....if the judge see's fit then so be it...win or lose
Archer

The particular times i mentioned the kids tryed there hardest and were very calm and did there best.
When i was younger and slightly older! if my parents or family tried to tell me what i was doing wrong i would never listen i always thought i knew more then them! lol... i would only listen (and still do) to people that are top handlers, paid off thou as now i semi-handle for them and get paid!  (but i would still do it without the money as i enjoy it!!

I must admit to the end of my junior handling career i thought whats the point as most dont judge it on the handler who shows the dog to its best but at handlers who show themselves and there dogs can do fancy patterns! One breed i showed was to big to do all the swoping and changing. The other just wouldnt be tought to shadow!

Not in all cases but in alot the child should be told its faults but parents shouldnt get cross and angry if a child has tryed its best, that may put them off all together. I appreciate what your saying when it comes to £20 a breed class but handling is just a bit of fun at the end of the day and when i was in it i found it far to competative!

Dusty, JH can still be competitive.  I hate all this fancy work and juniors who show themselves.  If you ever saw my critique from either hitchin or henley then you will see I hated OTT handling.  Now don't get me wrong, I can do OTT handling and have two dogs who are well trained who are happy with this.  the rest I wouldn't take under that judge.

I was once asked to do an E with a dearhound (even worse judge though it was a wolfhound!!!!)  I think it was my worst E ever, the poor dearhound didn't know what was going on.  I had done some handling with him but noting stupid!  I did win the class.

Another point is junior handling is ever so facey.  Well it can be. 

My parents made me listen to them.  I couldn't argue with what was videod! LOL

I still know many of the handlers now and still follow it. I would say that at some of the little open shows you may find facey judges to a certain extent...for example putting up friends children. I must admit i did ust to handle over the top in handling under certain judges as i knew thats what they went for, and i wun for that reason! Then i found it stupid, people started asking why i was handling like that in handling classes so everytime i had to explain, then i stopped! lol the little things of showing!!!

The funniest thing that i saw was at a handling class at an open show earlier this year! The judge was no older then some of the ones at the top end of the class. Ok it was polite of her and she shoke hands with everyone as they went in. She then went over everyones dog and made them all do things such as 'T's and 'L's. While going over the dogs she asked the handlers things like where the stifle and hock are (yes they should proberly know but what does it have to do with whether you handle your dog well!!). Next she went round to everyone asking their names to give them certificates saying they took part (a nice thought) but ok she may of known a lot of peoples names but would you go round a breed class asking the competitors names?? Shouldnt the certificates be kept till the end?? She then made certain people do figures of 8 and put some to the back of the line, followed by chucking them out. When having cut it down to six she made them all swope dogs (although there were numerous people shouting at the ringside you werent aloud) she continued, eventually she told them to swop back. After gating to people up and down together she chucked one out kept the other and placed them. What i thought was wrong why should only these two gate together and one get chucked out, how does the judge know if any of the others could gate as well as the one chuked out if she didnt see???  Ok some of these things werent a big deal but the swoping dogs! if she is to judge she should know the rules!!!
I know they shouldnt of but i saw a number of handlers (even ones placed!) questioning the judge on things and telling her she should know the rules! One was told she didnt get placed higher as she didnt stand her dog all the way through the class (there were about 15 in there!) she simply said she is not willing to stand her dog for the hour (or more!!!) she was in the ring as it was not fair on the dog and insted of watching other dogs in the class she should be consentrating on the one shes going over!!
There were so many complaints about this judge and not all of them knew the had friends/family in the class they were just horrified in what had happened!!
Looking back it was quite funny, but simply the worst handling judging id ever seen!

I didnt realise swopping dogs was against the rules, I remember when I was younger doing a JHA class and we all had to swop dogs - I got a little bedlington terrier :)

There was a time you were aloud.... i got told from many different sources that the rules have changed. One the only places your aloud to is in the handling finals.
But to be honest is there really a need at a little open show? (well thats my opinion) its not fair on the dogs. What if the dog doesnt belong to you? the owner my be hiding out the way and you might not know if your aloud...what are you ment to do?

I am afraid in our house we are all honest with each other.  I have told my husband he didnt deserve to win and also told him he should have done better.  I have also told my daughter things she has done wrong and although she gets stroppy she does listen ready for next time.  I dont think there is anything wrong with that.  If she wants to succeed there is no point me telling her how well she did if she hasnt.

I have also shown my pedigree dog who has a lot of firsts at champ shows as I have been trying to get his confidence back since he was jumped in the ring and lost his confidence the same as I have my puppies to gain experience of the ring when they are first starting.  I have also taken my daughter to exemption shows as she has recently started handling and deserves a chance to do practice although quite honestly I have found them all to be a waste of time as most judges are not JH trained so havent got a clue what they are supposed to do.  The thing which I find very disturbing about some of these shows is the parents who allow a not very well behaved big dog in the ring with a small tot who cant handle it and I have also seen this happen at two opens recently.  I felt very sorry for the serious handlers at the opens as the dogs were everywhere.

I am surprised that people say JH is facey.  One of my closest friends threw my daughter as she wasnt good enough quite rightly in my opinion when we tried her handling one of the dallies. 

TTS, like the breed, you could go under best friend number 1 and get thrown out but go under best friend number 2 and win BOB!!

I have experianced a fair bit of facey judging, and also "lets put up the handler who has done all the winning"

More or less there isn't much faceiness but it is their. :(

Forgot to say, about the facey judging, it is extremly rare i personally have not come across it just been told once about someone putting up there friends daughter when she didnt deserve it.
Roxanne when you say some judges just place the ones that have been winning, well to be winning they have to be a good handler in the first place (to constantly win) so a judge should not put them up as they have been winning (they are winning for a reason).

So 99.9% of the time i agree handling is not facey.

SO when a dog wins and wins and wins but has an off day and still wins it deserves it?

I have come acroos facey judging both ways.  I will admit I went under one judge, didn't relise on entry, went in and saw who he was and though "Sh1t" Because I knew he would but me up, and he did!

I have also seen boyfriends putting girlfriends up and visa versa!  IMO didn't deserve it!

Sorry Dusty but I believe their is no rule against swopping dogs still.  However it is not the done thing.  In a way it is an unwritten rule, but you can still do it.

I think some of these things you are moaning about the judge doing is wrong and I disagree (I also agree with some things ou said she did are not good practise in judging!)

I do ask atomy questions when judging if I want to split handlers.  A good handler SHOUlD know about the dog.  Even more so what a judge looks for when looking at their dog (A good handler MUST know these things in order to know their dogs faults and possible try to hide them! and also to read their critique on their dog.)  On sunday my dad had 4 handling classes (2 juniors, 2 adults)  He couldn't split his two best adult handlers.  Both were very good handlers so he asked each of them for withers, stifle and when a judge is going over your dog what is ment by lay of shoulder.

One of the handlers knew all of these and won BAH, She knew about her dog.  As should a handler know the breed, the group and other breeds in that group.  (Maybe we won't expect the younger age group to know all that, but the older age group and the adults should!!!)

If she had cut to 6 and needed one more to go, only making the two people who where batteling out 5th place, surely why waste time when you know who's getting the other places.  A large handling class of 15 takes a long time anyway, doing patterns that are not nessercary are uncalled for IMO :)

But I 100% agree with you shouldn't expect handlers to keep their dog standing any more then needed due to it is tireing and is it fair on the dog?  As a judge I would however expect to see the dog and handler ready to present, none of this both dog and handler layinig on the floor! :) (They might fall asleep :D :D :D )

People which have told me about rules on swopping dogs are and were top junior handlers, and i would of thought all there sources to be reliable. But one thing that was also wrong she didnt ask the junoirs if there dog would be ok with some one else, one dog was very spooked about it all.  The overall judging of it was appalling, but to understand you proberly would of had to be there, then again Roxanne your family do take handling very seriously and agree with the 'JHA' way of judging (im not saying this in a bad way! lol)

She was asking anatomy questions in the younger class and some were nearer towards the lower end where age is concerned. I agree with you saying that a handler SHOULD know these things (i knew them from a young age) but i dont thjink it is definatly needed to show a dog well, i knew a girl when about 13/14 if someone said the way the dog was standing had no angulation she knew exactly what to do to make it look like she had and she could make even the worst of dogs do look good, she didnt know anything about anatomy (she does now). Although i do think adult handlers should know.

With the gating thing, yes i could understand it if it was to chose out of two who would be placed 5th BUT the one child who gated got 2nd and the other chucked.

I still disagree with doing fancy patterns as it is not asked in the breed ring, it does not make a difference to how good the handler is, just shows whos dog is ust to doing stuff lik that, Although im not talking about gaing to dogs together as i know this can happen in the breed rings.

I remember once when i was handling a smaller breed in handling (not something i did often as i found big dogs easier handling) i picked the dog up while the judge was looking at all the other dogs as by doing this when i put him down again he was more alert and 'up for it', the judge old me after the class that i shouldnt of done this, dont know why as i didnt ask her to explain as i knew my reasons for doing it and in the breed classes i always did it!

One other thing, for me for years i have thought as it of: (sorry if anyone disagrees lol)
*YKC Handling- if the natural handling classes were there are no fancy patterns or stupid things.
*JHA- (the other way of handling) Fancy patterns and foot work, 50% of handlers showing themselves not the dog.
The past few years ive noticed this really changing judges/people dont see a difference in them including me! i ust to like it like that as i knew 75% of the time what the judge would be looking for!! But i always did better in YKC as i didnt bother training my dogs to do the patterns  as i found it pointless. When who ever started junior handling i do not think it was ment to involve 'T's and 'L's and fancy footwork, i would of thought harmless fun, i made many friends through it and am still in contact with them, many of them thought it was getting to competitive and stupid with all the patterns, although i must say its really nice to see the young ones going in having a go and they seem to really enjoy it!! ( i know till i got older i did!!) and i wish them all the best of luck!!

Do you know, I was never once asked to do anything other than a triangle and a once up and down when I did JHA ( about 15 years ago ) I think I was also only once asked about my dogs anatomy and that was at a match at ringcraft and that was how many teeth does you dog have.  Times must have really changed, and im feeling old :)

When im at blackpool im going to make an effort to go and watch the junior handling, it seems I might learn a thing or two ;)

I'm going to also make a point of watching it.  I missed it at the last show (can't remember which one!) and missed my brother win his class :(  This time I will watch...I might learn something aswell!!!! :D

(All support the young lad with the red and white setter on gundog day!!!!!!)

Ill be there gundog day, I will make a point of finding out where it is and times etc :)

I think your explanations of JHA and YKC are wrong.  Have you seen the judgeing crtier given to champ show judges for these two classes?  (Nor have I) but I have been told that they are nearly Identical!!!!!!!!!

The JHA (joe cartlidge)  was set up for youngster to go into a ring for practise before entering the breed ring.  This is where they would learn to handle (show) their dogs untill they have learnt to handle (show) and go in the breed.  Joe's aims where to encourage handlers into the ring

The YKC (KCJO) was set up by the KC to encourage youngesters into dog responsibility and because they saw what Joe Cartlidge was doing and wanted to be also seen doing good, (even if they didn't want to!)

The JJHA (Jackie Hurley) Is the one with all the fancey patterns, OTT handling and everything else to go with it.

If you want to think that myself and family are into OTT handling then thats fine, but have you ever stanced a boxer up in 5 seconds and strung one up? (Jackie hurley couldn't!!!)  Have you ever tried to run a setter stranggled?

Believe what you want but I know I'm not into all this fancie stuff, I show my dogs.  I have setters and aussies and I will not do a perfect triangle as I will not break my dogs gate.

Also since when have I taken it seriously?  What has made you think that?

My daughter shows in the handling classes the same as in the breed classes....can't see the point in anything other than showing your dog to get the best from it and to make it look its best for the judge.
Archer

Roxanne- I did not not say your family handle OTT , i meant that you dont seem to mind the patterns asked to do (do you agree with them?), i actually dont think you are an OTT handler. Maybe seriously was the wrong word (i was never very good at English!!). I ment that you are very involved with the handling side of things (sorry if anything i said offended you but it was not ment to!)

Yes the JHA was set up for Juniors to practice going in the breed ring, but what i mean is it had turned in to the fancy patterns which you do not need to practice or do for going in to breed rings!
Jackie Hurley promots the ideas of these patterns which is fair enough as that she what she agrees in but different people have different views and people have to agree to disagree.
The YKC do not /did not promot these patterns an shapes like the JHA and i saw a differnce between them, but i guess now all the handling classes are seen the same (like they should be).

Thanks Archer! Thats exactly what i am saying but in quite a few more words!! (lol)! Maybe i should try not to explain myself as people get the wrong end of the stick!

NO problem Dusty, we all get our words wrong, and when typinig it is hard to read.

I do not agree with these patterns but it was something I learnt to do.  I have only a couple of dogs who can cope with such patterns in the ring! :)

Yes I am involved in the handling, mainly because I always went in at shows and know of course I get to the adult handling and train the (my! :D ) Juniors!

Jackie Hurley's Idea kind of took over JHA.  JHA as I said before was set up by the late Joe cartligde who never wanted anything like handling is today!)  The YKC kept it's own some how, mainly because YKC handling classes (then KCJO) were not popular at shows.  There was no real need for them.  It is only really since the new handling qualifiying method do you see YKC handling classes.

I don't know how Jackie Hurley came up with the idea, maybe it's the way it was started in Jersey and was brought over here.  Luckily it is going away now.  It is coming back to how it was ans should be. 

How well can you handle your dog to it's best, with a good handler turning 'invisable'

With all the classes I have judged I believe I have been able to place on asking each handler triangle and up and down. 

i stood and admired my friends daughters handling at bath they have both got young not easy dogs and both showed great patients and calm handing showing dedication and concern and they didnt complain when they didnt win they made a fuss of there dogs and went off to the next class.
a good example for alot of adult handlers and a pleasure to see :)

It's lovely when that happends.  Espeically when they make sure the dog is praised.  One thing I hate is handlers taking a rosette and not giving any consideration for the dog.  Do they not know without the dog they wouldn't have got a place?  When pulled out in any place my dogs are always given a quick cuddle and are allowed to be happy untill we reach the line where they are stood again.  Has anyone asked a dog how awful it is to not be giving any consideration when without them it wouldn't have happend! :D  (have you worked out I'm all about the dog!!! :D

I too always make a fuss of my dogs whether they or lose.  The other day we won the veteran and could challenge for BIS (although the Judges never seem to consider the veterans for this award) and of course we didn't get BIS or RBIS but i made a fuss of Mups telling her well done etc etc when a woman outside the ring said to me "don't know why your making such a fuss of the dog, it didn't win".  My tongue is still sore from biting it so hard as i refused to let her spoil my day.  

P.S. It was only a companion show but all mine are rescue so to me its the equivalent of a win a crufts (well okay that's OTT but i can always dream)

OMG I can't belive someone would have said something like that.  Well done for keeping hush, I couldn't have done!!!!!

Afterall normally when one of my dogs don't win it's my fault! :D LOL  It's not the dogs fault they didn't get placed, it's the judges... or mine! LOL

Well done on your veteran win.  It's a big achivement!  I won veteran the other week (well dog did) at a club show, needless to say we didn't get best dog etc, but I was still over the moon at a class win and to top it all he behaved himself and he was stood next to a dog that has attacked him in the past :(  His now laying at my feet knowing I'm still proud of him even though we got 4th out of 4 last weekend!! :D

Also have you ever seen a setter jump up and down while trying to move forwards...We make people laugh! :)

You keep telling your dogs they are the best and are worthy of a crufts BIS :D (but only worthy behind mine!!! :D LOL )