Hi there we have a bitch just come in to season and if mated the pups would be born 11 1/2 months after her last litter I know the kennel club had the one year rule but somebody has just told me it has been changed is this correct? This would be her second and final litter.

Yes, the rules have changed and this would now be fine, unless you are a licensed breeder in which case the pups must be a year apart (legal requirements for a licensed breeder).

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

If you email me I can send you a JPG (scan) of the article that gives full details of the change. Click on my name and you will find my email addy.

In brief you are correct, if you are not required to be licensed. You will require a vets letter to say the bitch is fit to be bred from so soon, but do not have to ask permission in advance anymore.

Hi Brainless ( When I type that I feel I am insulting you)

Would it be possible for you to e-mail me that article also. I have read it recently but cannot now find it.

much appricated.

Pamela

Hi Brainless,

Thanks again, I thought it was the same article and it was.

I was just wanting to double check what I thought it said, it actually did.

Re Registered breeders..

Thanks again.

Pam

Can I just ask why you need to breed so soon after a litter? If she is still young then another 6 months or so wouldnt make any difference surely?

Sorry I am going to stick my neck out here...

Whether it is ok with the KC it is not morally right..

Giver her a rest..it takes more than 6 months to 100% recover..

Whay do you want to breed her so soon...??

Pam

Pamela from the post it would seem that she is in season early, and has probably had a season since her litter prior to this. the pups would be due 2 weeks under the year, a bit different from mating on next season, which still might be OK if last litter was only 1 or two pups! Two friends had singletons, and chose to wait over a year, but 1 of the bitches used to have 5 month seasons, so it would have been perfectly justified to mate her to whelp just under a year, though in fact she went a bit longer this time round.

The questioner was not talking about breeding 6 months after a litter, but having a litter 11 1/2 months after an earlier one. I don't feel there is anything wrong with that, seasons often don't come at exactly 6 months apart.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

Fleetgoat,

I don't know if reply was to my comment but if it was not sorry but my point is:

Breeding after six months and having a litter 11.5 months after an earlier one maybe through the breeders eyes and other breeders eye not the same but to me they are. There is no real reason ( Of course in my opinion to breed again right away regardless of the excuses given) the dog was not put on the earth just to have pups.

So if the dog has 3 seasons in 10 months would that still make it ok just because 3 seasons had passed. I don't think so.

Yes the questioner asked if it was ok because he/she would want to cover themselves for the KC, whilst the rule has now been changed it was not brought in just to make another rule there were reasons and concerns that brought it in or course problems controling along with others has taken it away.

If you take the seasons out the picture altogether and calculate the time frame.

The 11.5 figure Is from the DOB of her first litter, She has the first litter which she rears for 2 months which is also exhausting for her at times. For her to have her next pups again at 11.5months bearing in mind the bitch is pregnant for 62 day ish ( NO expert in this)
This to means she has only had approx 7.5 months where she is not either rasing puppies or carrying them. I personally don't think that is enough time to recoup 100%.

I am still recovering after 11 years.. :-))

Pam

Hi Pam, I think it does depend on the individual circumstances and each individual bitch. If a bitch has a small litter of one or two and rears them happily without losing any condition, as some bitches do, I dont think there is anything wrong in mating again. I had two singletons last year, and really they could both have had puppies again without any detriment to them. I desperately want another bitch puppy to show/keep one line of mine going. As my health does seem to be improving now and could get to shows I have been considering mating a bitch of mine that reared 2 puppies earlier this year, again at her next season. She is nearly 5, has had 2 litters, with no suitable bitches to keep, and if I am to keep that line going ( i have 2 lines and only 3 bitches, 2 from one line and this one) I would like to have a bitch puppy from her before she gets much older. I think its important not to breed from them too young, but a well looked after bitch who is a "happy mum", has a very small litter without losing condition, can be mated on subsequent seasons, once. I am sure there are those that will disagree, but each case should be judged individually rather than "accross the board". One of my bitches "milks off her back, and takes time to reciver, and I would never mate her twice running.

you can only breed 2 litters in twelve months if you have got a letter of a vet sayin the dog is in sound conditon
or the kennel club wont let you kc them

why rush into breeding from her again,let her over come the last litter.if like my wispa had 10 pup when she was 2 years old,she was a vg mum,back in the show ring at 4 months and winning,that was 2 1/2 years ago, the next season that i am thinking of breeding from her she fit and health after her scare last week of pyhometa,she be 5 in sep and this will be her last,litter,

one thing are you thinking of her health or the money that you make.??? she got time on her side,best let her have a season then breed from on the next one,if you have too,having two litter closed togther got cause health problems for her and the pup, hope you are insure for wheping like i,am.

Brie, the litter will only be two weeks short of 12 months, so not really rushing. this is probably her 2nd season since her puppies. If the litter was not large or maybe the bitch is getting on in age, there is no reason she should not be bred again for a 2nd litter, which is hardly overbreeding, as the poster stated this would be her last litter.

The bitch I am planning to mate at the end of the year will have gone over 3 years since her first litter, as she missed last time (in season now, but timing wrong for me). This could be guests situation, and waiting another 12 month may not be right for them, bitch or dog could be too old, next season may be bad timing, some folk like summer litters, I prefer winter, less neighbour worries!

Agree Barbara. Whats the difference between 11 months & two weeks and twelve months & one day? It depends on the condition of the bitch, then on the breed and the the size of the last litter, then the breeder's personal circumstances. A few days one way or the other on the calendar is only an arbitrary consideration.

The one thing I don't agree with is winter litters. Last time I had one we were up to our uxters in snow for almost the whole time the pups were with us. Never again <brrrrrr> :-)!

Ah but I live in the Balmy south, and own a Northern breed, mine positively thrive in the winter, and it really does help that the neighbours are tucked away behind closed doors and double glazing at the 5 to 8 week stage, when the little playful band can get quite vocal. Also with resuced daylight, they don't wake the neighbourhood so earlyin the morning. it is amazing how earily the sound of half a dozen or so Elkie pups can carry from my kichen round the neighbourhood on a still morning!!!

We get a really bad winter here about one year in four, and that litter arrived in one of the worst ones. The kennels are well heated, and they could have gone out at the usual 4 weeks, except that the snow was half way up the kennel doors, and the pups vanished into the drifts outside. We had to keep them in the house until they were six and a half weeks and of course by that time they needed more room than we have in the whelping room. So we turned the corridor & hall outside into a puppy run. You have no idea (or at least I hope you haven't :-)) how much mess, mischief and mayhem 10 large 6 week pups can create in a place that humans have no choice but to traipse through regularly! I suppose it was good socialisation, but we were ready for a rest cure when the snow began to melt! Thank goodness we have no neighbours close enough to hear a pack of pups greeting the dawn :-).

I am rather disapointed in the way this post has been answered by some, this is a friend of mine who I encouraged to post so she could consider her options. To Pamela and Briedog the bitch will not be bred for financial gain it would be for (hopefully)a follow on for the ring as due to circumstances beyond her control she finds herself waiting for the right puppy. The bitch is in A1 tip top condition and flourished through her last pregnancy the vet is behind her 100% and in no way does she ever stint on veterinary care through out the pregnancy. A mating next year would be more difficult for her due to personal circumstances and also the stud dog she is desperate to use is possibly going to live abroard at the end of the year. I feel it is totally unfair to judge this person just because she is considering her options responsibly and not just putting it down to an accidental mating and getting them registered as I know people who have done this. So if she waits 6 more months but had 4 litters from her would she be more responsible? I think not. She asked a question about rules not for an attack on her morals.

Hi,

What a shame your good intentions have backfired on you :( I've also been in the situation of recommending certain sites to people only to be embarrassed by the responses their questions recieved.

If your friend, the vet and the stud dog owner are happy for this mating to go ahead then she should have faith in that and go ahead with it.

I hope it works out well for her.

Fiona
x x x

if the all the details were put in the post in the beginning,then you would not get post from other people with their comments,everyone has their owen opinion

To be completely fair, Brie, the guest was pretty specific when posting the query. The basic question was about KC regs and what were the exact policies. It did not ask for any opinion based comments.

But everyone must appreciate that breeding litters so close together (regardless of how many seasons apart) will not be acceptable to some of the posters on this board, as has been shown. It is a controversial point and indeed, as has been said, the ruling was introduced to prevent the over breeding of bitches and the associated cruelty attached to such over breeding.
I personally, like others, do not agree with litters from the same bitch so close together. However, it is the persons concerned who have to wrestle with their morals and pronciples. If they don't have a problem then really nothing anyone else says will make a difference.
I was just curious as to the reason why the 'rush'. These have now been explained.

Perhaps ADMIN might consider placing a cautionary advisement for guest posters to consider any/all sides of the posed question and to try to answer them all before hitting the button. :rolleyes: ( Remember, the guest can only post once and cannot edit for content. )

Personally, I don't think it's very polite to accuse someone of being "immoral" who is asking a rather simple question in a forum where they do not know anyone. The fact that he/she cared enough to pose a question demonstrates to me that they are attempting to do the most right for the situation.

This is not an appropriate forum to be judge and jury. I really don't like the past two days where it seems to have become popular to act as such concerning several of the posted topics on the entire board :( It's just plain mean to lay ambushes like this. It's rather shameful to excuse it away by using a defense that "the person should have know it would become controversial, so they should have addressed everything in their one and only post".
not trying to pick on you about your rationale, Bec, but others have said the same thing too :( I'm trying to say this as nicely as I can and without upsetting anyone. That's a difficult thing to do here, sometimes :) :(

But this is my humble opinion of the matter and I'm sticking to it, durn it! :rolleyes:
toodles

Hmmmmmmm. Sara, I feel handbags coming your way ;)

And after you promised as well.

For the record though, (for what it's worth) I agree with you !!!!

Hi Bec,

I am now a bit miffed but I guess that is what happens here sometimes.

I think your answer is right that had the post been clear then a clear reply would have been given ( Maybe).

I have yet to see a reply on the board that was just a yes or no without feeling behind it and this is not something new I sat on the fence for a longtime and watched.

I am not a judgemental person nor a mean person at all I just have dogs interests at heart. They cannot say give me a rest can they..

Best Regards..

pamela

Hi Eoghania,

I agree with what you say about the original post but none of the opinions were given to be mean or judgemental. They are our opinions and if you post a short question it is open to interpretation. I personally thought the person that had posted was or appeared a novice and please don't shoot me down as I know now he/she is not.

I feel I would have expected someone showing and breeding show stock to know the rules of the KC. I know them and I am new to this and have not ever bred before.

SO whether someone takes the comments the wrong way all are said in the interest of the dog.

Which I have to say is what attracted me to this site in the first place, We are all passionate about our dogs and it shows in our replies.

I don't know who signs off with " the rough with the smooth" but boy are they right.

Pam

Well as it has been said many a time before on this board if you ask a short question without full details you will get everyones different opinions. How can you expect people to give answers without their feelings behind them that is why we participate on this board.

If the original post was fuller and in more detail , breed ,age circumstances you may not have got so many different answers. Nobody judged your freind, the comments that are given are generally given without thought to face or name.

You ask a question you will get opinions.

I personally don't agree with breeding any dog within 12 months regardless of reason and I am intitled to have that opinion. My opinion does not benefit me but it is out of my 100 % love for dogs that I feel like this. I do not believe that there is enough recovery time.

I think you may now be judging us. I don't think anyone mention financial gain, or suggested that there was lack of vetinary care, and certainly your comment "So if she waits 6 more months but had 4 litters from her would she be more responsible? is not necessary.

The rule was made for the benefit of the dogs and so was the comments..

Best regards whatever you freind decides.

Pamela

Pamela The question was not expanded because she asked all she wanted to know. If you read through Someone does suggest financial gain and It was clearly asked was the lady insured for whelping she asked a clear question which required a simple answer and if this issue is so clear cut why did the kennel club change the rule? That is all she wanted to know did they change the rule? If people do not want comments on their answers then do not voice opinions.

Thankyou Brainless for your help.

The same could be said about anyone posting a question. Anyone posting a question, especially one such as this, should expect that there may be people who do not agree and will post accordingly.

Agree with what? there was nothing in this question to disagree with. I'm sorry but, as this lady cannot reply and I recommended her to post I feel responsible for the flack she is getting just to make things finally clear she was being responsible and is one of the very few people I would trust with my dogs. It's just unfortunate that she has decided not to join the forum after this. Soon to become a computerite she was looking forward to it and would have gained from the experiences of the more knowledgeable ones online.

Her posting made it clear she wanted to breed a litter within a year of a previous one. She must have been aware that there would have been people opposed to that and by that very token should accept other people would have a different opinion and not necessarily agree.

I hope the article was legible and made the position clear :)

It is quite clear thank you and I have passed it on.