having a nightmare.i own two ******** .bitch is three and the dog is 12 months.they were separated when she was in season but he briefly escaped.this happened when we were out.he broke the door down!!! made the fatal mistake of not getting a pregnancy check.bitch was perfectly normal until a week ago.overnight,and i mean overnight,her ribcage swelled,teats have engorged and now this week her abdomen has swollen.she's seeing the vet tomorrow.phoned the breeder immediately last week(both dogs bought from her)....she's gone nuts.claiming the dogs were never meant to be bred(although this was stipulated and discussed prior to purchase) told me first one dog is carrying vwd,now changed her mind and the bitch is a potential carrier even though all parents of both dogs are clear.if she doesn't breed carrrier dogs....where has it come from. upshot is she refusing to alllow any pups to be registered.doesn't matter if i get dna swabs for vwd.she's chucked her toys out of the pram.it was an accident.she won't help me one bit.faced with the heartbreaking choice of an abortion or culling the pups as she has informed me that i can't sell them.i am not a breeder and was not intending this to happen.i had hoped to breed the bitch with the breeders help next year, so that i and my brothers could have aa dog each from the same line.but the woman is refusing to budge.feeeling very aggrieved.she was more than happy to take my money for the dogs.(£600 each!) why would a respected breeder be so unfair.advice would be appreciated.

Admin edit to remove breed

How very unfortunate for you.  I know how difficult it is to keep a bitch and dog apart.  My only suggestion is to let her have the puppies anyway as the thought of abortion or culling doesn't sound a good idea to me, but they will have to be unregistered.  You and your brother can still keep one but would be unable to show.  Hope the decision you make is the right decision for you.  Haven't had much dealings with breeders but they sound as if they want things all there own way. Good luck.

A breeder is anyone whose bitch has a litter as this poster will be theya re as different as any other group of people.  Responsible breeders generally do not let two pups go to the same home, especially the same sex.

As for the VWD, if the parents were simply tested they would be foudn to be affected or not, dna testing now would show if there were any carriers, so of course the posters dogs could both be if their parents were not dna tersted.

in reply to jean turner, the breeder does not want the pups.however when i told her of my distress at culling perfectly healthy pups,she informed me that she could do it for me.

OMG!!!!!! I take it she is a VET!!!!!!!

This does sound terrible unfair. I can see where the nightmare is for you. I think I would probably do what was suggested and give her the pups, true it will be heartbreaking, but the alternatives are more so...
I dont envy your position and yes it sounds like they want it all their way which is terribly unfair. I would be very upset also.
The best of Luck
Jodi

You say she is refusing to allow any pups to be registered which means she must have put endorsements in which case one would assume that she did not intend them to be bred from. You say you are not a breeder and didn't intend this to happen and yet you had hoped to breed from her next year .... I'm a little confused.   Just because it was an accident does not mean that she should automatically lift the endorsements. 

>she has informed me that i can't sell them  

I can't see that she can stop you from selling them, but the will be unregistered.

the endorsment was subject to breeding age(complied with),with same breed(complied with) and her to be consulted with(ACCIDENTAL).contacted her as soon as possible. when dogs were purchased i was told they were suitable to breed with each other.that was a stipulation. the sticking point is that i did not consult her.

I would imagine that Hip Scoring and Eye testing would also have been stipulations, have these been carried out as well as the aforementioned VWD tests. If you get these done then maybe after they ahve calmed down a little they will lift the endorsements.  If not at least you can show the prospective buyers that the parents have had all the health tests and cannot be registered because they were a mistake and the breeder is not happy about it.  You never know the breeder may relent.

Is the endorsement actually printed on your dog and bitch's registration document? She doesn't sound like a "good" breeder to me...selling 2 pups (albeit at different times) on the pretext of them being suitable to breed together....no stipulation that health tests should be performed!! etc. etc..  If the endorsement isn't printed on your documents then she hasn't got a leg to stand on over the registration of puppies.

Angela

Hi stingray,

Obviously only you and the breeder know the full terms of any contract under which you had to fulfil certain requirements regarding the endorsements being lifted.  Without knowing the full facts, all anyone else can do is guess but I agree with Brainless' interpretation that if you have not yet had the breed specific health tests carried out on both sire and dam, it would be advisable to do so as soon as possible (obviously not practical at the moment with your bitch being in whelp to have her hips scored) and hopefully the breeder having had time to calm down over the current situation and seeing that you are committed to doing the best by her stock will relent providing the health status is satisfactory.  It seems unlikely that if this is a well respected and established breeder endorsements would be lifted merely on the basis that a particular age had been achieved and that the bitch was mated to a dog of the same breed   That doesn't sound like any contract or terms I've ever heard of.

Hopefully, when you have both had sufficient time to mull over the repercussions of this unfortunate misalliance, you will be able to come to an amicable arrangement.  Personally, I'd advise you to try and keep communications open with the breeder and see if you can make her understand that you would like to put things right in the best interests of your bitch and mindful of protecting the breeder's reputation.   Good luck, Teri :)

Hi Teri just reading your reply then and i thought breeders could put endorsements on so the dog isn't bred from while there under age or is that wrong.  I'm just interested thats all.

Warm regards Susan

Hi Susan :)

My point was that reasons for endorsement would almost certainly include that both the bitch and stud dog would need to be a minimum age appropriate to the mental and physical development of the breed (often as laid down by the Breed Clubs' CofE) but that age restrictions alone would be unlikely to be the sum total of conditions required to be met before the endorsement was lifted.

For eg. my own stipulations are satisfactory Hip Scores, clear eye test within 6 months pre-mating, minimum ages attained as per breed club provisos, remaining free of possible heriditary diseases in my own breed (most common, although not too common, being epilepsy) that dog/bitch has remained of good temperament with people and other dogs and is assessed either by me personally or an experienced breeder or specialist judge appointed by me as being of suitable breed type to be bred on from.   All these conditions are laid out in a contract between myself and my puppy buyers and fully explained to them before they are asked to sign.  Even with a contract I cannot physically prevent a puppy bred by me being bred on from without fulfiling this criteria but I could and would refuse to lift the endorsements regarding registration of progeny until they had been satisfactorily met.  I also endorsed all but one of my litter as "not for issue of an export pedigree" which will remain a life time endorsement - the exception being one puppy who was being exported to a good friend in the US.

Regards, Teri :)    

in reply to jenp, i had hoped to breed my two dogs with the assistance of the breeder(very very well known uk breeder of dobermanns).the two dogs were purchased with that in mind,ie to be whelped by her. these are beautiful dogs and members of my family wanted pups from my two. financial agreements would have been made with the breeder.i am simply trying to find a solution to the problem.these dogs(potential pups) are too good to be unregistered 'bargains' for any person.and the fact that i didn't consult her is NOT a good enough reason for these pups to be rejected. they are two dogs who would have been bred anyway.it just happens that this has happened a little early.

>these dogs(potential pups) are too good to be unregistered 'bargains'

I would have thought that the priority would be to find them good homes.

>the fact that i didn't consult her is NOT a good enough reason for these pups to be rejected

if she stipulated that she should be consulted there may well be reasons why.  Perhaps she first wanted to check that they were good enough examples to breed from, perhaps she wanted to check that they had had all the health tests done.  If she is a very very well known uk breeder of dobermanns, she will want to protect her lines.
I'm probably playing devil's advocate here, and I do feel for you, but there are always two sides to the story. 
As Brainless has suggested, perhaps the best way forward would be to get the health tests done, and hopefully, once things have calmed down she may rethink her position.

Thanks Teri, just wondering.

Warm regards Susan

I have to agree with the breeder here, I would be horrified if such lack of care was taken with pups I had bred and I would be wondering if this was indeed an 'accident'. I certainly wouldn't be lifting the restrictions until all health tests had been carried out and passed.

I would tend to agree, as I know of cases where a soft hearted breeder lifted endorsements for a supposed accidental litter,a dn the perosn wnet on to have another accident six months later and still hadn't done the health tests!

The poster needs to convince the breeder of their beleivability and get these tests doen now.  The dog can ahve ll of his and the bitch can have hers except for the Hips which can be done later once litter are born.  The pups then can be registered (albeit late) once the breeder is convinced, as the problem is once the endorsement is lifted that is it as regards ensuring the poster doesn't breed unethicaly after that.

Husky, without being rude I would have to say that is a bit rough. This person has said that the dog's were seperated and the male had barged the door to get to the bitch. I would hardly call that lack of care, and if indeed that is the case there is absolutely nothing to be horrified about. Of course there is aways the thought that is may not be accidental, but to be so harsh without trying to get to the bottom of the matter is a bit off. I would think they might try to resolve the issue in a adult manner rather than get all heated about it. Accidents happen, all the time to the best of us.
Jodi

Yes but if you come home to find the door barged down you would know something had happened and they should have informed the breeder then and gone to the vet for the morning after jab.  If this had failed as it very occasionally does, then the breeder would at least have felt confident that this really was an accident.

If the poster had not known about the jabs, then informing the breeder of the accident would have got them the info from this expereinced breeder.

It may be harsh, but I have to say that my initial thoughts were a long the same lines as husky's - if a dog was so desperate to get to a bitch that it barged through a door, one would suspect they were going to do more than play fetch!  It was the care or lack of it after that that would concern me. 

At the end of the day, we only have one side of the story.  And even if it was a genuine accident, the breeder is quite within their rights not to lift the endorsements.  Even if the breeder is at fault, and being deliberately unhelpful, it is still within her rights to refuse to lift the endorsements.  I have to say, I agree with Teri, I can't imagine why anyone would go to the trouble of putting on endorsements and only specify that the bitch was a certain age and mated to a dog of the same breed!  

Surely the most important thing is to find these pups good homes (rather than worrying about them being too good to be potential bargains for someone) and ensuring that the health tests are done asap.

I would say the lack of care is actually on the breeders side. For one, the breeder should not have sold a dog and a bitch to be kept entire together if it was going to be such a disaster if an accident happened. Why sell a dog and a bitch to an owner - why not just the bitch and then have the owner come back and get a recommendation for the right stud? Sounds a bit late for the breeder to get all stroppy to me.

I'd let the bitch have the pups and then have her neutered. I'd sell the pups as unregistered and leave it at that. Ultimately, the dogs belong to the poster now and whatever agreements re breeding have been accidentally breached - such is life! :)

This was an accident! In response to "Lack of care" comment i am both horrified and insulted!! these dogs are treasured, much loved family members, who both my wife and child adore. This was not a money making idea! This was not a ploy to get one over on the breeder! This is a serious issue that we want resolved..... resolved in the best interests of the pups. The comment of Bargin dogs was in the hope that you would understand, that i wanted good caliber of people buying these dogs, you dont buy an expensive item of furniture then c**p all over it!. Now this statement will proberbly also get a slating form you sceptics out there. Thank you to those that have offered helpful and insightful advise.  Communication lines are now open with the breeder, VWD test will be done and the breeder is willing to lift the ban, obviously pending results, which after researching both dogs lines, we are confident of healthy pups.

>Communication lines are now open with the breeder, VWD test will be done and the breeder is willing to lift the ban, obviously pending results, which after researching both dogs lines, we are confident of healthy pups<

EXCELLENT NEWS!  Hopefully all will go well for you now and both yourself and your breeder will be able to work together on this.  I'm sure many, many breeders are regularly upset at accidental matings but given time and shown a responsible and caring attitude by the bitches owners they calm down.

I don't think anyone who has replied has intended to slate you - it's probably a little bit like imagining if this had happened to themselves as breeders - hence feelings can be quite strong :P  But it's also helpful to you to get some feedback of how the breeder initially felt too - and may well assist you in further conversations with her ;)

Anyway, here's to a continued good relationship between you and I sincerely hope all your health tests etc have the desired results.  Good luck and please update us on how things go.

Regards, Teri  :)

Thank you teri. We will keep you informed of the pregnancy and end result. This has now become an exciting time for us as a family!!! Thanks

Heck if you think it's been stressful so far just wait and see what the weeks ahead bring :D :D :D It's a wonderful experience but boy it's a full time job!!!  Will look forward to updates. 
Best wishes, Teri :) 

hope everything turns out ok for you stingray! :)

if the parents are clear the pups will be clear!!!!  she is talking crap!!! unless she lied and told you they were clear when they were really carrier.  DO NOT cull healthy puppies as this is highly unethical.

sounds to me she is trying to save her own reputation  tut tut really she should have been more help, I always send my male to kennels whilst the girls are in season as accidents happen even to the most experienced people......

sounds like lack of support and advice from the breeder if you ask me, she should have warned about what can happend keeping and entire dog with an unspayed bitch!!

May i ask what is VWD test?
I know the hips, eyes, ears ect.

Hi Lazydaze,

If you look up this link http://www.aritaur.co.uk/Health.htm it will explain for you.

Regards, Teri :)

Hi folks this may sound silly but if you get a dna test and your dog is carrying a genetic fault does it tell you which dog is carrying the genetic problem.

Warm regards Susan

I assume you mean which dog in its pedigree is carrying it? If so then No - it's not that good ;) All dogs would have to be tested.

Susan, the DNA testing is done on the parents, to establish whether or not they are carriers of the disease. If neither one is a carrier, the puppies will be genetically clear too. If one is a carrier then the pups must be tested, to see which are carriers and which are clear. If both are carriers, some of the pups could be sufferers of the disease, as well as some carriers.

Dawn R.

Thanks Nursey you're a great source of knowledge.

Warm regards Susan

Thanks teri :)
That explained it for me.
Must say what a great site had a peak at the rest of it.

Jane

Lazydaze i've never learnt so much in my life the people on hear can offer you a weight in gold in advice, it has it's ups and downs but it's definitely worth coming on it's the best forum i've been on so far the people on hear are so informative even though some debates turn nasty it's still good.

Warm regards susan

Hi Dawn,

so if a carrier was bred to a clear, there would still be some carriers, or would all the pups be clear? Is that true for all genetic problems, in all breeds?

thanks

Hi Husky, unfortunately no, there are several modes of genetic inheritance, and they vary both from breed to breed and disease to disease. I'm by no means a genetic expert, but what I decribed is called the recessive mode of inheritance. It's one of the simplest to explain and understand.

Other modes are dominant and polygenic, but I couldn't begin to explain in any detail how it all works, as I said I'm no expert.

To get back to your first question, in a genetic disease of a recessive mode of inheritance, a carrier bred to a clear will produce both carriers and clears. Statistics say 50/50. It's important though, to understand that unaffected is not the same as genetically clear. Unaffected could be, genetically clear, could be a carrier, and could be a sufferer that has no symptoms YET. Only DNA tests can separate these groups with any certainty.

I'm in over my head now so I hope somebody with more knowledge than me will be along today. :)

Dawn R.

vWD is inherited as a recessive.  Until recently the test available was able to tell you if the dog was affected or unaffected.

Of the unaffected dogs soem woudl be carriers and some clear.

Now they have the DNA test you can tell the carriers also, which is marvelous as they do not have to be removed from the gene pool (thereby depleting it of their good traits).  If you have a carrier animal that is outstandign in other respects then it can safely be used for breedign to a clear partner.  the resulting puppies will need to be DNA tested tjhemselves as aroudn ahlf will still be carriers.

If two DNA tested clear parents are mated then all their offspring will be clear and not need testing.

Personally if I bought a pup from untested parents I would want to see both their registration certificates where it showed that their parents were DNA tested clear.

Hi Brainless,
When you say recently - how recent?

WEll a year or do.  For a while the testing was complicted by the fact that there was a dispute by the originators of the test in USA and an organisatuion doing the testing in UK.  the US company have patented it, so al the tests have to go to US.

the tests do not go to the US anymore and havent done for quite some sime - they now go to Finland and have done for a year (approx)

Well shows how time flies :D  Do the Finns have theri own test, or is the US patented one used on License?

Hi Brainless

It is now done through a company called Finnzymes and coordinated by the KC :-)

Defo 2 years or more as I had one of my bitches tested in 2003 and she is a carrier

Unfortuneatly not everyone tests and some still even mate carrier to carrier or affected to clear - I know affected to clear doesnt produce affected puppies just carriers, but personally I wouldnt breed from an affected bitch.

Especially a bitch as she could bleed badly diring whelping or a C section.

I know the effects of vWD are rarely severe enough to cause serious health issues, but any reduction in the blood clotting time can be risky and the whole point should be to breed tha trait out.

Using carriers to clear is perfectly acceptable to keep a decent gene pool.  If everyone did this in one generatiopn you would remove all the affecteds.  You would then be able to gradually phase out the carriers also, without the risks associated with throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Yes Brainless I agree but some people sadly just think about the £££££ - I wouldnt risk my bitches health and have her bleed to death - some of us do care :-)  I am lucky not to have any affected.  If you breed the trait out then you as you say loose a good gene pool as some good producers ar carrier so I feel aslong as you breed any carriers to clears you are fine.  I think if it was clear to clear all the time the quality of Dobermanns in this country would drop drastically.
I have 2 carriers, male and female so when my bitch is in season she goes to kennels for 2 weeks or so so there are no 'accidents'.  She is being spayed in 2 months so that will make make things easier. 

Thanks Dawn, that's very helpful, didn't think it would be that clear cut!

http://www.kerioak.dobermann.me.uk/index.html

this isthe best website regarding health problems in the Dobermann - lots of info on here!