Hi Guys, not posted for a while, but have a dilema.  Took our 18mth lab in to vets for spaying, dropped her off at 9am and picked her up at 3pm (don't know what time the op was).  As soon as we got her home, she was bleeding everywhere.  Took her back, and she was kept in overnight so they could keep an eye on her re the bleeding.  Finally picked her up Sat pm with a rolled up bandage 'sewn' to her wound to absorb any blood loss. Anyway, initial bill was £165 for the spaying, second bill was £80 for the follow-up treatment on the Saturday (various injections).

Should I have paid the second bill?  If so/not on what basis?

  

I would query what this second bill is actually for and why, in their opinion was this follow up treatment necessary.
Hope your dog feels better soon.
Best wishes

Hi Oliversmum, I know exactly what the second bill was for; 3 different injections, 'Haematology' and 'Sedation Charge'.  This was extra treatment to stem the blood loss. I'm just thinking, if she was kept in longer perhaps until 6-7pm this wouldn't have happened.  However, would the same '5 treatments' have appeared on the first bill.  In which case I would have said '£245 for spaying, why is that?'  'Ah well, we couldn't stop the blood loss' would have been the reply.  Question is either way, should I pay for this 'extra' treatment ?  Surely this is all part of the 'operation'  And yes, she is feeling loads better thanks, I've been told to keep her quite for 10 days!!!!!  Ever tried keeping a young lab quite for that long??   

Each dog is different, i can't say whether to complain or not maybe the 'standard' bill was for a standard procedure and not incorporating any issues that may come of it.
No vet can be certain that a standard procedure won't bring problems if they do they deal with it, whether that is included in the price i guess is at the discretion of the vet in question.

BigD, Based on what you've said, I would query the whole lot.

For starters-

1.  If an animal is not fit to be discharged then why was it?
2.  Is this an unforeseen complication? Why?
3.  If that say they couldn't stop the bleeding, then why? I find it hard to believe that any vet cannot stop bleeding after routine surgery.  I mean what's different about your dog as opposed to anyone else's?  If all our dogs had heavy bleeding that required additional treatment after spaying, I think we'd be asking questions, and lots of them.

Of course this is an individual case so I suggest you speak to the vet in question.  If you don't get a satisfactory answer, then take it further.  Spaying is routine surgery; it is unusual for a dog to be bleeding heavily and requiring further treatment after being discharged.

Thanks Spender, that was kinda what I was hoping to hear. 

I suppose there can always be complications after any op.  My friend had her dog spayed and  she still came into season a while later.  The vet had the cheek to charge her again as he had left some of the ovary inside her :rolleyes:  I don't think I would have paid that one!

Fiona

i had my bitch spayed last summers at 21 mths old. It was £80 for the spay, then she pulled stitches throughout the week. Each visit (one was out of hours on a saturday and an emergency) after the initial spay was free, including jabs, tablets, general checks etc, because it was all linked to the spay op. Had i gone back for say, a broken leg, then there'd have been a bill for that i'm sure.

nic

Munkeemojo, what dog do you have as the cost will vary depending on size? It was £84 plus vat just for the general anaesthetic for 20-40kg dog.  What does everyone else think about the £165?  Is this on the expensive side?

Gabi was 33 kilos when she was spayed and cost us £125.00 inclusive of VAT. We had no problem keeping her quiet for the first seven days, she behaved as if she was still sedated. The last 3 however were demanding as she was doing her best to devour the Elizabethan Collar. There was very little of it left by the time 10 days had expired. She then had her stiches out and the collar off. She was then very exitable and it took her a good couple of weeks to settle down.

My golden cocker bitch Jesse is being spayed on 13th July and I am being charged 220 pounds.  This is with Medivet and I suppose its because  I am in Greater London/Middlesex.  After reading all the other posts I can't believe how expensive it is for me.  I also had the same quote from my previous vet.

a few years ago now, we had to have an Irish Wolfhound bitch have a total hysterectomy after have a C section for one puppy, which died shortly after being born. Sadly we also lost the bitch under aneasthetic. Possibly due to two major ops in a space of a few hours, and lack of blood :(  The sad thing is, if she had ben kept in, but due to lack of space they couldnt, we might have hung onto her. She was brought home, at lunchtime, carried by four people on a blanket, completely out of it. At teatime when she finally got up and turned round there was a big pool of blood under her. We rang the vet. who told us to get her to the surgery immediately and she did an emergency hysterectomy on her. As I say, we lost her and the vet. was so apologetic and forgo all costs. Whether this was a guilt thing on her behalf who knows. But it seems very cheeky for your vet to charge for another visit, when things should have been kept an eye on there.
It took me a long, long time to let another Wolfhound have puppies, but thankfully all went well with the next litter.

Hi L7nda

>I can't believe how expensive it is

I'm in greater london and with medivet, so I understand well.  Even accounting for the additional costs for premises, it does seem considerably more expensive than other parts of the country.

My god, where are you peoples' vets??? I want to go to them!  My bitch was spayed in January, she is 28 kilos - she cost us £230.  Boy do I feel out of pocket now!!

where all the stiches put in properly or something so it was there fault if s i wouldnt pay it! ans i agree with Spenders comments

Fiona

My vet is charging me £160 for spay op for my Boxer bitch who is 28-30kgs.
She is also undergoing 2 mammary gland removal as well which will probably
bring the cost up to around £230-250 including pain killers etc.

I'm in Berkshire/South Oxon.

sorry for a seriously late reply BigD!

i have a lab, but she's small, and was borderline medium/large in the vets opinion. He spayed her as a medium breed and the £80 bill was for everything done in the procedure. Think she even had blood tests first to check her for the anaesthetic,, although i can't say 100% if thats true-can't remember to be honest! She's my baby, so i expect t was....I'm not sure how much it'd have cost if she'd have been classed as large. I'm lucky she's on the petite side!!!

forgot to say that this £80 included an overnight stay (she went in 9am on the tuesday and came home 10.30am the following wednesday), antibiotics / inflammatories (sp?) etc. God that was cheap!!!!!

nicola 

It's difficult to think of another profession where some of them can make a pig's ear of something and still expect to get paid, and they don't even blink when they take the money!!...just thought of another...solicitors, oh and doctors!! hmmm, here's a question for you: how come these outfits are all called "practices"? The definition of the verb 'practice': to learn through repetition...I don't think some of them are paying attention. The trouble is, when things get critical, they have you between a rock and a hard place. And it's not as if we are talking pennies, whatever happened to good old value for money?

Hmmmmmmm Thats wierd, do you mean when you have a follow up you have to pay for it? At my vets when I had my dogs fixed and they were alergic to the stitches I was there 3 times a week then once a week, every other week till they were healed and I wasn't charged for any of those visits... But my friend who goes to a different vet had her cat spayed and was charged when she brought her in to have the stitches removed... Should a follow up be free? I personally think it should be....

My dog had several operations on his ears and I was never charged for a follow up. In fact, my vet insisted I brought him back in every week for a check. I only had to pay for extra medication prescribed.
Some vets seem to be there for making money and not really the care of the animal.
Why do a major operation knowing that there is no bed in their hospital for them, that is just plain irresponsible. If there is no bed that day, wait for the next day. All operations are risky so they need to be prepared for something to go wrong.

There are risks to every surgical procedure but a vet should know these risks and advise the owner accordingly.  The dog shouldn't be allowed home until all risks have been assessed and minimised and the owner is provided with a list of instructions for aftercare. 

To discharge a dog while it is still bleeding profusely after surgery is quite simply malpractice.  And to charge the owner for additional treatment to stop the bleeding is an insult on top.  Not to mention the additional stress to the dog when it should be recovering.  If this is a genuine unforeseen event, then the dog must have a unidentified blood clotting disorder.  If this is not the case, then I would suspect negligence and mismanagement. 

BigD did not say their bitch was bleeding on discharge but only when they got her home.  Perhaps she was allowed to jump in and out of the car.  Haemorrhage is a recognised risk of abdominal surgery the only way to ensure it never happened outside the vets surgery would be to keep the dog for at least 48 hours until haemostasis can be assured and few owners would either like that or like the cost! 

I didn't say BigD said his bitch was bleeding on discharge nor did he say his dog was jumping in and out of the car.  I don't know where you got that one from, Isobel.  My post was simply - in general -so that BigD could look at the situation and reach his own conclusion as to what did or did not happen.  The point is malpractice goes on whether people want to see it or not.  On the other hand, there are some excellent vets around. 

However, most vets will recommend the dog stays in for a certain amount of time to ensure everything is okay depending on how the dog recovers regardless of the cost.  Maybe this did or did not happen on this occasion, quite honestly we don't know. 

I have had a few of mine spayed over the years and never had a problem after discharge, never had a problem with bleeding either.  But they tended to be quite quiet and sleepy for a good few hours after an anaesthetic; I can't imagine them jumping in and out of the car a few hours just after being spayed.

Well if your comment was just general to help BigD look again at what happened my comment about how the dog has carried on since discharge also should be looked at in those terms.  I have seen large dogs being encouraged to jump into cars at the vets surgery and, bolstered by painkillers, managing to do so.
I'm sure malpractice occasionally happens but the thing to do if you suspect it is to report it to the relevent bodies.  I think it is impossible for the conduct of professional to be acurately judged by anyone less than their peers and absolutely impossible on a web site.  I think all we can encourage BigD to do is discuss this with their vet and if they are not happy that they have simply paid for an unforseen complication to report it to the RCVS for further investigation.

Sigh, no one is judging anyone Isabel, I think we should look at these situations from all angles.  From my point of view I found it unusual that a dog is heavily bleeding after routine surgery and discharge.  That's all.  And I certainly would question it.  Of course there may be unwise people who let their dog jump all over the place following surgery, I'm not denying that either. 

And I agree, a discussion with the vet is the solution in the first instance.  So, here's wishing BigD's dog a speedy recovery and I hope things will get sorted with the vet.

I'm not sure why you are sighing Spender, I don't see why my opinion is anymore tedious than yours.  There have been several comments during this thread that suggest people feel critical of the vet in this instance.
I think it is getting a bit bogged down with looking for blame at either the vet's or BigDs door thankfully it is unusual for a dog to heavily bleed after surgery but sometimes it just happens, all bodies react in different ways some dogs with have more inflammation, for instance, which will put the internal sutures at more strain, infection aside, it generally takes about 48hrs to know you are through that stage but most of us accept the risk, take our dogs home where they are happiest, observe and take action if necessary, a little blood goes a long way, especially on fabric so if it is any consolation to you BigD it may not have been as bad as you thought :)

Okay Isobel, I never said your opinion was tedious, your words, not mine.  You've already made your opinion absolutely clear.  If there are comments on this thread that suggest people feel critical of the vet, then that is their opinion and they are perfectly entitled to that in the same way as you are to yours. 

Of course they are entitled to their opinion I wasn't the one sighing ;)

No you weren't, I was the one sighing but it wasn't at your opinion.  Always best to consider all the options and then the original poster can decide what he or she wants to do. :-)

I t wqould be interesting to know at what stage in the bitches cycle she was spayed.  If it was before a first season the problem may in fact have been that she was close to a season and the risk of bleeding is increased with the increased blood supply to the uterus.  Another good reason to wait until a bitch has had at least one season, preferqably two so that you can more acurately calculate the most quiescent time in that bitches hormonal cycle.

This varies from Vet to Vet.  One I was with insisted you come back for them to check on stitiches etc and then charged you extra.  My current vet never charges for follow ups as it is part of the treatment.  I much prefer this methiod even if the cost ends up the same.

The same thing happens in human private medicine, my father had an operation privately and could either pay a lesser amount in which case he would have to pay for any complications (no blame ones of course ;)) or a greater amount to "insure" against all complications, fortunately as it turned out for him he paid the extra as some problems entailed a longer stay in hospital for him.  I suppose it would be better though if vets explained which system applied to a case beforehand so people could take that choice but on the other hand if the one system always operates with a practice they, perhaps, take it as read.

Actually the verb is practise, practice is the noun, similar to licence and license..........;}

...unless you're from the US...

HI THERE!  I WAS AMAZED THAT YOU HAVE HAD TO PAY SO MUCH FOR THE INITIAL SPAYING AND DO NOT THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE HAD TO PAY FOR THE FOLLOW UP TREATMENT. I WOULD DEFINATELY COMPLAIN.
I HAVE NEARLY LOST TWO OF MY GORGEOUS GIRLS THROUGH SPAYING. FIRST WAS BRACKEN, WHO BLED HEAVILY AFTER HER OPERATION AND CARA WHO BLED HEAVILY DURING HER OPERATION. ALL MY DOGS HAVE BEEN GREYHOUNDS AND LURCHERS AND ARE CLASSED AS A "LARGE BREED" (EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE NOT) WHEN IT HAS COME TO PRICING. EVEN THOUGH, THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AROUND £100-£120 WHICH I THINK IS FAIR ENOUGH. WHEN CARA WAS SPAYED (I DROPPED HER OFF AT 8.30am AND COLLECTED HER AT 4pm), I WAS SURPRISED TO SEE THAT THEY HAD WRAPPED A BANDAGE AROUND HER STOMACH. WHEN I ASKED WHY, THEY TOLD ME IT WAS JUST A PRESSURE BANDAGE AND TO KEEP IT ON UNTIL THE FOLLOWING MORNING. I RETURNED HOME, BUT WITHIN A SHORT WHILE I NOTICED HER STOMACH WAS TURNING BLACK AND SWELLING. BY 6pm HER STOMACH WAS NEARLY TOUCHING HER KNEES AND SHE WAS IN A LOT OF DISCOMFORT. I RANG THE EMERGENCY PHONE NUMER FOR THE VETS AS THEY HAD CLOSED, TOOK CARA STRAIGHT THERE WHERE SHE RECEIVED EMERGENCY TREATMENT INCLUDING INJECTIONS ETC. IT WAS ONLY THEN, WHEN I CONFRONTED THEM ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED THAT THEY TOLD ME THAT CARA HAD HAD SEVERE OVARIAN BLEEDING DURING HER OP. THEY ALSO SAID THAT THEY WERE WORRIED THAT SHE WOULD BECOME ANAEMIC, BUT THOUGHT THAT I WOULD HAVE PHONED IN IF THAT HAD HAPPENED (HOW WAS I TO KNOW WHEN THEY HADN'T MADE ME AWARE OF ANY OF THIS!). I THANKFULLY SAW A DIFFERENT VET WHO WAS NOT THERE DURING CARA'S OP, BUT HAD INFORMED ME THAT AN ERROR WAS MADE BY THE OTHER VET. I DID NOT PAY A PENNY FOR THIS TREATMENT OR ANY FOLLOW-UP TREATMENT THAT CARA RECEIVED.
I DEFINATELY FEEL YOU HAVE BEEN RIPPED OFF AND SHOULD GET A FULL STATEMENT OF ALL TREATMENT RECEIVED JUST TO CHECK THAT THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY UNNECESSARY ADD-ONS (BELIEVE ME, THIS OCCASIONALLY DOES HAPPEN)...I'VE HAD IT DONE TO ME (IV'E BEEN GIVEN REFUNDS!) AND I KNOW OF SEVERAL OTHER'S WHO HAVE ALSO HAD THIS DONE.

ALL THE BEST AND I HOPE YOUR GIRL STAYS WELL AND HAPPY!!!!

Greylurch, can I ask at what stage in their hormone cycles your bitches were at when they were spayed?

(And please could you take your CAPS LOCK off? It makes posts very difficult to read, and is generally considered on the net to be 'shouting'. Thank you!) :)

Sorry for shouting Jeangenie!  I'm new to all this!!

Just to let you know, I didn't get the time to spay them wrong. My females had been through a few seasons each, so I knew thier cycles very well. All the dog's that I have had, have been spayed right in the middle between seasons, to avoid heavier bleeding and to allow thier hormones to settle. I also understand, like people, that every dog is different and the majority of canine hysterectomy operations are straight forward and without any complications.
I hope this answers your question.
Thanks for your reply!

So sorry to hear that Greylurch. :-(

My OH's work colleague had medical problems with a Lab.  I don't know the full particulars about what was wrong with this dog but he took it to his vet.  Weeks past and the dog got worse so in the end he took it to another vet but it was too late.  The dog died.  The original vet made a complete mess of the treatment and the second vet wanted the owner to sue.  But he was too upset to do so, his wife was in bits, blamed themselves for taking their dog to this vet in the first place.  So the second vet sued the first on their behalf.  It was very, very sad. :-(

I agree with you, the majority of canine hysterectomy operations are straight forward and are without any complications.

After reading all the above posts it strikes me that vets and the way they charge has a lot in common with modern dentists ;-)

OK guys, thanks for all your comments.  I took her to the vets tonight to have stitches removed and discuss the bill.  Firstly though I will answer some of the issues raised.

1. The stitches were fine, no problem there.
2. She was not bleeding when I picked her up.  It started shortly after arriving home.
3. Certainly didn't jump in/out of car-I lifted her very gently.
4. Her op was at 10.30
5. The £80 covered 5 injections/treatments, they didn't charge for overnight care, just 'consumables'.

Basically, Spender has mentioned the cause (according to the vet) in one of his posts - blood clotting disorder. Apparently her platelets are low and therefore she is a slow 'clotter'.  The vet said that the only way of knowing this was to have had some pre-op tests - which I declined.  I do recall being asked if I wanted to pay an extra £34 for some 'kidney/liver tests' but I decided this was akin to taking out personal loan protection on a bank loan/ additional warranty on an electrical product , the staff try to sell you an add-on to generate more income.  They also told me she had an infection, that was present prior to the op, and some of the cost was to treat that.

Anyway, I was treated very sympathetically this evening and the person I spoke to didn't want me to go away less than 100% happy, so she has arranged for the vet who did the op to ring me on Monday.  Maybe its just one of those things and I have to accept it.  The most important thing is my dog is fit and well and can now run around like the mad fool she is.       

The main thing is that she is now recovering well.  It is always good to maintain a good relationship with your vet so I am glad there seems to be good communication going on there :)
I must say I have always paid for pre-op blood tests but then my dogs have tended to be somewhat older when spayed,  I expect you will be doing this in future ;) :)

Yip, I agree, the main thing is that your dog is now recovering well.  And having a good relationship with your vet where you can discuss these matters is worth its weight in gold.  I must admit, I too always have pre op tests done before any kind of surgery.  Since my dogs turned 9, they have an annual blood test anyway to check kidney and liver function.  I'm glad everything has turned out well. :-)

>>>What does everyone else think about the £165?  Is this on the expensive side? <<<

We were charged £152 yesterday to get Hattie spayed