When we were out with our dogs today, a huge tan dog, bristling with leather straps and studs came out of the undergrowth. The guy with him was in his early 20's, very pleasant, and asked how old our pup (gsd) was, then went on to say that his was 7months - a big lad. By now I had herded my two away from what I knew I was seeing. So as we are leaving I said, and what breed is he (knowing full well). Exact reply - Oh he's an American er, er, Staffie Cross. Yeah right! There is a purpose to this post - I lost track of the legislation around pit bulls, but am I right in thinking that they should be muzzled in public places? I'm sure there are plenty of nice one's about, and this one seemed OK, but my stomach flipped when I saw him loom over my pup. One false move and it would have been all over.

Kat

No they shouldn't be muzzled...they shouldn't exist....all Pitts were outlawed many years ago and those in existence should have now passed on.It is therefore no possible anymore to legally own a pitt....even if muzzled etc
Archer

Archer, that's what OH said when we were discussing it having walked away, he thought breeding them was banned. Is it a case of mistaken identity then? When I asked the breed he said American er, and then stumbled as though he had forgotten the breed and said staffie cross. I am absolutely certain that it was an APBT, and it isn't the first i've seen lately (only one other).  I suppose like anything else the could be breeding 'underground'. A friend of mine who rehomes Staffs has also come across the occasional PB in the last couple of years. Or is it a new type of cross to imitate the pit bull? Now I am really curious.

Kat

Hello!
I'm not from UK, so you'll have to explain why APBTs and ASTs were outlawed. I'm sure there must have been a reason for it, but I'm not sure I see one. One of you said "they shouldn't exist" with such disgust that I just can't believe how you could be a dog lover. As I strongly believe there are no bad dogs, there are only bad owners. And you can make a "killing machine out of any strong dog. I have seen dogs of all breeds out there that wern't sutable for public only because of irrisponsible owners. And it has nothing to do with the breed what so ever!
I personally know quite a few lovely, sweet APBT and ASTs that are perfect family dogs and get along with everybody. My friend is also showing his AST successfully and she is a gorgeous example of the breed.

I wish you all the best!

I have seen some really nice friendly ones in Europe but they are banned in this country as they are of "pit bull" type which hasn't been legally aloud in this country for a number of years.

They shouldn't exixt or be at least 15 years old, asin 1990 they were banned and all existing ones ordered neutered and to be registered and muzzled and on lead in public.  That is why they shouldn't exixt as they shoudl be dead or extremely old by now.

I understand all of that, but still don't see the reason why. I don't understand why the government decided to do that. I mean what are the reasons why someone decides this is the breed that shouldn't be allowed.... what are the standards. Because if we start outlawing breeds just because of few individuals were a bad example of that breed, there wouldn't be many left out there. There are always some that will be agressive (even Labrador Retrievers, even English Cocker Spaniels and so on). It all depends on the owner. How responsible he is and how he trains his dog from the start.
How about your own English Mastiff or perhaps Staffordshire Bull Terriers (all lovely dogs btw), which could as well be lethal in wrong hands?
And are dogs like Cane Corso or Dogo Argentino also banned (again lovely, lovely dogs with propper owners)?

There were 2 particularly nasty attacks on people by APBT at the time, the press made a big deal out of it, people screamed about wanting something done, and hey presto the Dangerous Dogs Act came into being. In a nutshell (although there is a lot more to it) it says that all dogs of the Pit Bull "type" (incuding crosses or dogs looking like them), Dogo Argentinos, Fila Brasilieros and Japanese Tosas should be neutered, muzzled when out in public, registered, cannot be sold or given away etc etc.

There has been cases where a court has ruled a pedigree staffy to be a Pitbull TYPE because of it being unusually large for instance.

Marianne

The banned breeds are:

American Pitbull Terrier
Dogo Argentino
Fila Brasiliero
Japanese Tosa

Also any crosses thereof, and dogs which could be considered "of the type of dog known as the pit bull terrier".

but that assumes that everyone in the UK is law abiding...

I expect what you saw was either some sort of cross or an American Bulldog, which are becoming increasingly popular over here.

If it WAS a pit bull it would probably be in the Guinness Book of Records...........

Did you all hear on the news a little while agoabout the kid who jumped the fence in to someones garden to retrieve his ball and got attacked by APBT's? How come they were still alive?

I heard the self-same story, only featuring Rottweilers when they were the latest 'devil-dog', about 20 years ago. Before that, I heard the same story about Dobermanns, again when they were the current Bad Breed ...

I agree Thome, I know of someone who "claims" there dog is a pitbull cross but he actually looks the spit of an American Bulldog.  Some people like to claim their dogs are pit crosses because they think its hard :(

Yeah people are going to the extremes. What will be the next breed that will take the blame for one or two individual examples that just wern't socialised?! In general APBT and ASTs are complete angels when it comes to humans. They are very gentle and friendly and you can trust them with any child (it they come from a good breeder and were handled properly), so a dog of that breed to just attack someone for no reason is very unlikely. There must have been something else behind that. Or perhaps the dogs were in the wrong hands, and trained to do so. I'm very sad to hear those miths and ridiculous storries that start with "I heard....." and turn into something that never happened at all. You know how it is........

People in this country who know about dogs have always been in the mind that the law is wrong and that we should 'punish the deed not the breed' however the law is the law and these dogs are now illegal.We still have the mindless idiots arund that gave these dogs a bad name and they are the ones still claiming to own pit bulls...even though all they really own is a cross breed.The law is not strict enough in many ways on the idiots who think its big and hard to own a 'pit type' breed and allow it to become a threat and a menace to other people and their pets.
Archer

Yes Archer, I agree with you completely. What I think should be done (instead of banning certain breeds) is what austrians did. Everybody that wants to buy and own a potentially dangerous dog (and that also goes for other breeds, not only pit bulls) have to pass a certain psychological test to see if he's capable of controlling that dog. So basically, let's controll the owners instead of punishing the whole breed, which makes no sence.

i remember a few years ago were i worked a man came in with a pit bull,he did tell us how he got it over. i dont know how much truth there was in it! but he did look like a pitbull! he was such a loverly dog,but as many people claim it isnt actuly the dog that is bad its just down to the owners not training them properly! there is supposidly 1 in my street well thats wat the owners claim it is.

It certainly wasn't an American Bulldog, and I've just checked out a couple of sites to make sure. I also found it very peculiar how when asked the breed the American bit came out smoothly and then he stuttered and paused before the next bit 'staffie cross' came out a considerable time after. I've also checked out the APBT site since and the dog on the home page http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/americanpitbullterrier.html is the exact replica of the dog we saw, except that he was a soft tan colour. Good looking dog, and appeared friendly, but I have to admit to being very concerned. My biggest fear is the crushing capacity of the jaws, and the locking - if my dog and he did have a fight, I don't believe I could prevent serious damage or even death (esp to a pup) I've no doubt I will meet some aggressive labradors, terriers, shepherds etc, but feel far more confident that I could intervene (indeed have done in the past), including with a staff who when he let go to get a better grip, I gave him my forearm, which he latched onto with vigour, having already torn my dogs ear.
As I said in the post, he was a pleasant young man, and we saw him sit and play with his dog on the field, and the dog appeared friendly. However, I would not take my dogs near him again. I like to think I'm not prejudiced, and agree with deed not breed, but I don't want my pup to be this dog's 'deed'.
Kat

If a breed has been banned, why would you go out of your way to own one of these banned dogs? Just to spite the law/authorities? Or perhaps to appear like a "real man" with "a killer dog" beside you? There are plenty of dog breeds and crosses out there to choose from  and whether you agree with the law or not should not really come into it; a ban is a ban and anyone choosing to ignore it should be made to face the consequences. Mind you, as "viciousness" goes, and if the number of attacks was the basis of banning abreed (or even labelling it "dangerous"), based on my experience all Border Collies should be banned. They seem to be the most popular breed around here, and yet I have met only ONE that did not try and take a chunk out of me, or even my dog! (guess if the police are interested when I report these dogs? Last time when a BC chased me down the road and finally went for my arm, I was "unfortunately" left with only bruises, thanks to my thick winter coat, and therefore the police would do absolutely nothing!) And I am yet to meet an unpleasant Staffie (plenty of those around) or a Dobermann, yet this one HUGE dobermann male I met (perfectly sweet) was always on the lead and wearing a muzzle: the owner has young children who play with the dog and the dog never does anything, but apparently this person gets a lot of abuse from the general public if the dog is ever off the lead! ("It's a killer dog and should not be let off" they shout) I sometimes wonder if I should go and scream and shout at the people with the BC's out of control, when they almost without a doubt go for me or my dog. It is a miracle that my dog hasn't learned to hate this breed yet, considering the attacks the poor thing has had to endure. :( (I have grown quite suspicious of anything resembling a collie, and will go out of my way to try and avoud and encounter, knowing perfectly well how it will end up.) I find that banning a breed solely based on the number of attacks might quite possibly lead to the wrong conclusion. But the law is the law. ;) It sounds pretty ideal what they are doing over in Austria- however, I think this is only a pipedream as the UK goes, as we have a percentage of the population clearly unfit and unable to raise children, let alone dogs. I would love to see some sort of "fit to live in a civilized society" test being introduced! :D 

ChinaBlue I'm not sure I understand you now. All this talk about a Pit Bull and it's now that I realize the poor dog didn't really try to do anything at all. So basically you started all this just because you think the dog looks like a killer?? Let me tell you something.....if this was a human, not a dog you were talking about, I'd call you a racist. Making assumptions about someone just because of the way he looks is simply wrong!! And as for the locked jaws that you mentioned...... come on, surely you're not one of those people that believe in this myth. Please do ask your vet to explain the basics of physiology next time you visit him. And in the mean time read this: http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/Research/BSLPacket/Pit%20Bulls110503.pdf#search='pit%20bull%20locked%20jaws%20myth'

Soph, you and me wish for the same thing......

The problem is ory that being of a different race is not against the law.....owning a pitt bull is.Rightly or wrongly this breed is banned and only macho idiots with something to prove now proclaim to own them.
Wether we agree or not we cannot support someone breaking the law......I'm sure you can appreciate that.
Archer

Breaking the law is another story all together. I don't support that (I'm not from UK, but understand different countries have different laws) at all. I mean I'm a very law abiding person myself. I was however shocked that people are still spreading myths about so called "locked jaws" on a serious forum like this. I thought this was in fact a forum of dog lovers and people who spend their lives trying to understand dogs, not spreading silly stories around. That is all......

Wish you all the best!

Ory that is a fantastic site! I have just read it from start to finish and agree whole heartedly with what it is saying.  As it says How many men kill woman per year in domestic violence cases but we dont brand ALL men lethal killers not to be trusted, and all ready to attack women given the opportunity.

Calm down Ory, she was not 'spreading myths', your saying it like she has deliberatly set out to cause trouble. She has stated something that she belived was true! This IS a serious forum when matters are, all you had to do was politly correct her not accuse of spreading 'silly stories' :rolleyes:

Well I am really sorry for being straight forward. It was not my intention to be rude, just to point out that we should be a bit less judgemental about the way a dog looks like. Also to point our fingers at people we don't know anything about......like the boy walking the dog. If the lady didn't know him (he might have looked a scary guy, but who knows, he could be a really sweet person that wouldn't hurt a fly). Basically, we're not here to judge, we're here to seriously talk about the love we share for our dogs....... that's my oppinion!

Wish you all the best!

"Basically, we're not here to judge, we're here to seriously talk about the love we share for our dogs"

This a brilliant point.
However, with all respects, would you now feel you too have even slipped into this mode?
After all, you wrote earlier of Archer,

"One of you said "they shouldn't exist" with such disgust that I just can't believe how you could be a dog lover",

even though you professed in the paragraph prior that you knew nothing about British laws.

Thus, you have unfairly judged and labelled Archer, whom, in fact, was only stating that APBT's shouldnt exist from a purely factual point of view, due to a British Law, as was later pointed out to you.

There was no value judgement in Arhcer's initial post, only one that you "interpreted", thus judged (before the facts), which you rightly point out people wrongly do too often regarding certain breeds, and the OP may be doing over this individual dog and individual young man.

Food for thought.

cheers, clutha

Yeah, when I'm wrong I'm wrong and I'm not affraid to admitt it. I interpreted Archer's sentence in a wrong way..... all I wanted was to educate people about certain stories that are going around and people unfortunately believe them. It's a bit hard for me (and I'm still tackling with expressing myself) as english is not my first language. So if I don't understand something as fast as you guys do, please don't take it too seriously....lol. Just trying to make a point and doing it in a grammatically correct way.
I still do believe that we shouldn't believe everything we see.....and that we shouldn't judge too fast. As simple as that....

Wish you all a nice day!
Christina

p.s.: I know sometimes I get a bit mad though in general I'm a very sweet and gentle person ;)

Ory
I was the one who said Pits shouldn't exist....its a fact I'm afraid.If the law was obeyed then they would no longer be in existence in this country.For those idiots who still proclaim to own them then all I can say is they ARE NOT dog lovers because they would not be owning and breeding a breed that is under threat of being PTS as soon as it is born.
Most ...if not all....pits in this country are simply staffy cross breeds but simply by looking like a pitt they are in affect illegal as the law stated PIT BULL TYPE.
You're statement that since I made that remark I could not be a dog lover could be no further from the truth.....but I appreciate that due to your understanding of the english language you misunderstood the way it was meant
Kindest regards
Archer

Dear Archer, I'm trying real hard to understand what a Pit Bull type is now. As I understand this type of dog is illegal in UK. But who sets the standards, as Pits are nothing else but slightly bigger Staffys. And Staffys as I can see are pretty popular breed on your island. Every time I'm in London I kind of get the feeling that it is one of more popular breeds. If we go back into the history of the breed (AmStaff/APBT that is) we can see that Americans took the biggest Staffys and bred them. In time the breed was recognized by AKC and also FCI as American Staffordshire Terrier. Somehere in 1930s they started separating 2 lines of AmStaffs = working line (APBT which is only recognized by CKC, not AKC or FCI and can not be shown in dog shows) and the AmStaffy which is quite popular in shows around continental Europe.
So my question.......where is the line between Staffy, AmStaffy and APBT? Or is it just about the size? So if you have a big Staffordshire Bull Terrier you are breaking the law? And in that case Dogo Argentino (which has btw nothing to do with APBT) is also known as the Pit Bull type?

oh god I really did ask a bit too many questions....lol.....but as I know there are so many things we all have to learn I hope someone will be able to clear it out for me :).

That is where things get awkward.There have been Great dane x staffs seized and destroyed under the DDA.....its all down to the prosecuting authorities and their interpretation of pit type
Archer

Blimey, Soph, you must have some strange BCs in your neck of the woods.  Our parks positively swarm with them and they are all so fixated on chasing and retrieving balls (positively Obsessive/Compulsive) that our dogs never approach knowing there will no frolics to be had there.  I have never come across a nasty BC - but perhaps it's an Urban Dog thing.

Re: pit bull discussion.  Ory, what you have to realise is that the Great British Press, aided and abetted by the Great British Public, love a good witch hunt.  Sadly they are all too often encouraged by self-serving politicians who make ill-thought out laws.  Having said that...there is a type of man who is attracted to any symbol of 'hardness' or machismo.  If that happens to be a dog, God help us all because said bloke wants to be seen 'in control' of a powerful and (potentially) dangerous animal not winning obedience trials at dog shows.

Missthing, the only thing these evil mutts, (ehem, sorry, Border collies ;)  ) around here are fixated on is my arm/leg or my dog's throat. And my poor Molly won't even defend herself, she just wants everyone to get along and be friendly. :(  I guess all these behavioral problems come down to dreadful backyard breeding ("As long as it looks like a cute BC, I can sell it in the pub car park for £50") and thick people getting these working dogs not understanding that a 20 minute stroll in the car park really isn't enough for  such a lively dog. I don't know why they are so crazy here in the West?? I actually stopped going to my training class with my Giant  Schnauzer after my dog was attacked a few times, two dogs went for my leg and one performed a true flying attack towards my arm. All of these BC's, of course. And what really got me miffed was that if my dog barked out of boredom and frustration (and I don't blame her, I often felt the need to! :D  ) the trainer would be very unkind to me about it. However, these BC's fit for a loonybin are going around attacking things left right and centre and the trainer just ignores it. Call me crazy, but I would have a dog that barks any day over a dog that ATTACKS PEOPLE! Oh, did I mention the trainer also has BC's? :D  I wonder if I should be campaiging to get collies added to the list of dangerous dogs, ha-haa? It probably doesn't make me more popular in the eyes of these dogs that I quite literally tense up every time I see one, and if the dog is already "a bit psycho" my rather dubious body language is not likely to help.

:( how helpful! :(

There is people who still breed APBT's in this country, if you look into the working terrier people there is some rogues out there who are still breeding these dogs as only a few months ago on a working terrier forum some clown actually advertised his litter for sale, it was quickly taken off! but they were APBT's & had came in from Ireland.

Ory
I didn't start this thread to be contentious, or to scaremonger. The fact is these dogs are banned, and if they are appearing here as young dogs, then they are being bred (AND BOUGHT) illegally. If that's the case, you have to wonder what type of people are buying them, and that is a concern to me. If you read the post, I also said that this dog appeared to be well tempered, and I went on to say that I'm sure there are a lot of nice APBT's around (though not in the UK) Perhaps you misunderstand my major concern - APBT's and Staffordshire bull terriers were originally bred to fight bulls, as are all the bull breeds, and part of their 'makeup' is the will to HOLD ON AND NOT LET GO (if you will 'lock') their jaws. I have felt the bite of a staff on my own arm and it took 3 people to get it off. I don't mean PHYSICALLY lock! That's plain silly and physically impossible unless it was a crocodile! However, you have only to watch a pit bull dog fight. Most dogs do not exhibit the excessive hold that dogs that are bred to fight do. All dogs that were bred for a specific purpose retain some of their original characteristics, whether it is to herd or guard for example. And no, I am not a racist whether it's to people or dogs, I do however exercise my right to discuss what I consider a worrying thing to happen with a banned breed, AND to avoid it with very good reason - as I consider the safety of MY dogs the most important thing to me. Why should I risk it?

Just had a look at the site Ory, and yes it is very interesting. However, I keep repeating that I expect that there are lots of really nice PB's. I did notice though that it stated that for hundreds of years pit bulls have been bred to fight other dogs. And the site covered the fact that they are not known for human (very specific) aggression. In the frequently asked questions section, there was no reference as to aggression with other dogs. I remain concerned, and I will continue to avoid my dogs having any interaction with pit bull terriers.

I am curious as to how others on this board may have felt with this dog looming over their pup?? I would be expect that almost all would have taken the same action, and moved gently away, placing their own animals safety first. Come on everyone - be honest.................
Kat

Yes ChinaBlue if my puppy was attacked I would react as well and try to do everything in my power to save him. But I'd be just as worried if any other dog attacked him. But nothing did happen as you said, so there's no need to be concerned. The dog was civilized and that was my original point. You get dogs with good or bad manners within every breed and that's just the way it is. It all depends on how much time the owners are gonna dedicate  into training and socializing.
There's one more question for all of you that might know the answer. Why is Dogo Argentino not legal? If it's all about the so called "fighting breeds", DAs was originally used as a hunting dog.

Sorry Ory, but I wouldn't wait for him to be attacked, I would rather prevent the potential injury or indeed trauma, and remove both him and my other dog from the situation. It's a bit late to be concerned once the damage has been done! Prevention being better than cure - yes?  Also if you could see the leather trappings that this dog was wearing you have to wonder about the owner! What is all that about? He wasn't just wearing a harness, but in addition a collar, plus something similar to a martingale which appeared to be purely cosmetic in an extremely macho way, studded to the eyeballs, but with no apparent function. Must've cost a fortune though.
You didn't respond to any of my points about dog to dog aggression in the pit bull, and neither did the site. I believe even pit bull owners would not put them being good with other dogs high on the list of their attributes, which is primarily my point of concern.
Kat

Hi,
     Unfortunately obtaining a APBT is not particularly hard, you just need to know where to look. As someone pointed out earleir not everyone is law abiding.

Yes ChinaBlue, I understand your point about dogs attacking yours. Quite frankly it shouldn't even come to that! As I already said, all dogs have to be under controll at ALL times. Doesn't matter if it's a Pit or a German Shepherd or a Chihuahua. Dogs must be on a leash. In my country u pay a big fine if your dog is not on the leash in public places. Basically, the only place where they could run free is in your own garden or Dog School premises. But that is all fine, because my dog (and many others) gets enought exercise doing Agility or other dog friendly activities.
Dog to dog agression......let me tell you about my experiences. We have quite a few so called "fighting breeds" around and I have to say that so far I have never had any of them try to fight with my girl. What has happened way too many times is that a German Shepherd attacked her. So many times you wouldn't believe (and I still have nothing against the breed, in fact if trained properly they can be lovely dogs). Once when she was just a puppy and it scared her for life. What I've learned in all these years is, that it doesn't matter what breed the dog is. The most important is what you as an owner do with that individual dog.......
You also mentioned something about a Pit Bull/Staffy not being able to let go after he holds on to something. Let me tell you that it isn't just a Staffy thing, most terriers find it very hard to let go the prey once they hold on to it. I have seen a West High that was literally hanging on Doberman Pincher's leg and both owners had to pull him off.....lol....it took them quite a while. Poor Doberman didn't know what hit him.....

I agree, and have gone out of my way of anything like that happening for the very reason that my dog is a staffie..  these situations can be avoided I'm sure....
for the record Tess has been attacked three times, she was on her lead each and every time, once was by a dalmation, secondly a very wide and muscular staffie and the other by a lab... but my judgement is based on how the owners reacted (or NOT) to the situation and not the dogs themselves....

ps I'm not having a pop at anyone here, just giving info. on my particular experiences......:)

I think that we're now getting down to the differences between where you live (USA?) and where I live - England. Our dogs do not have to be leashed in public open spaces, parks, meadows etc. So it is an entirely different kettle of fish. I agree plenty of other breeds attack/are aggressive, but I would just be repeating myself. However, the fact that our dogs can meet like this unleashed can certainly change the dynamic of a situation. BTW my dogs are German Shepherds, and extremely people and dog friendly, but again, I agree with you - many aren't.

When was this Kat, and how come you hadn't seen it before?

Hi Keira
It was last Sunday. It's not a park we go to very often, but just occasionally for a change, and we wanted to take Indy to a deeper river to get the feel for water!!. Also when we do go there, which would always be a weekend, we don't go at the same time - so I guess that's why. It seems like I freaked Ory out, I've never been called ignorant or a racist before - but there you go! If they don't ever have their dogs off leash, there's not much to be worried about - but I tell you, I was seriously worried! Mind you little fluff ball Indy thought he was nice!!!!!
K
PS What's this about you getting a horse????
K