as far as getting test done just cause they are done and the parents have low hips it doesnt mean the pups will to. a pup could still get bad hips through over exercise. so the test are advised so that you have less of a chance of getting bad hips.it is not a garantee that pups will have good hips.

>a pup could still get bad hips through over exercise. so the test are advised so that you have less of a chance of getting bad hips.

exactly, so why chance the pups ending up with bad hips by not testing the parents   environment can be controlled and so can genetics if the tests are done.  Granted some pups still might end up with bad hips but at least the risk is reduced.

yeah but my point was if the dog was already pregnant there not much that you can do to solve the hip situation. and that it isn't compulsary to get them checked just adviseable. i have had my dogs done (well not the pup yet cause he is only just 1) and i got them done because i use them for working and i wanted to know that there hips were up to the job. i am in no way saying you shouldn't get the hips checked i was just trying to say in this case it may be too late. also the way people were talking made it sound like if the dog has a litter then all pups should be destoryed because you could possibly get a dog dog out of unchecked parents what do people think happened before hip testing????this is not my view , i now alot of people how only get the stud dogs hips done and work on the thoery that if a bitch can have pups here hips are fine.

but by saying this >it is advise able to get the relivent test done but not complusary
it made it seem like you were saying it didnt matter about hips, and anyone reading this may have thought the same.  Obviously you are concerned about hips especially as you work yours :)

I dont honestly think it came accross that people were saying the pups should be destroyed, they were just trying to get the point accross about how important it is to health test.

:)

But isn't a smaller chance better???? Wer all know it isn't a gaurentee, but it makes the risk much much less!!!!!  And yes, other influences come into it such as exercise, diet, accidents etc.  However Pure HD does not happen though accident or exercise, in away it's a bone growth disorder.

I think you are also striring some stuff up hear (WUM).  Us "show" people happen to want the most healthy stock possible.  I think our advice is valuble, and everyone who has tried to help the OP has done so very well.  They have not critisised, meary tried to advise her on what to do.  If she gets health tests done before the pups are born then she can say to the owners "here look, this is the health test results of the parents" and if she buys the book of the bitch and listens to the advice, lets hope she gets to raise a healthy litter of puppies which go to loving homes, and she can also still have her bitch at the end of it.

as for my comment on *show * people i used that phrase because alot of people here don't like hobby breeders and think that a dog should only be breed so that it can be shown. and alot of people here frown on people that dont care about showing but breed for working ability like myself.  my 2 black labs are excellent workers but would never even get a second look at a show. show labs are shorter and stockier than working labs.and alot have them have lost there working ability. i have taken one of my dogs to a show that was for charity but run by the local show club and they look at there lab then and mine and questioned his pedigree luckly i had i copy of it with me. and happierly my boy won waggiest tail. but didnt get a look when it came to the show ring. i have also seen many people bring there show dog to a shoot and expect it to naturally be able to find and retrieve game as it will bring back its ball in there garden. alot of work goes into getting a dog to a standard that is expected in the field and even more work goes into a dog that is trained for working trails. and all too often i have seen people on this site say that is show or nothing every other dog should be neutered. i am not saying everyone should breed or even incourageing breeding but people should realise that working dogs do play a big role too.

sorry for any offence with my *show* comment but it just hacks me off and no offence was meant

>all too often i have seen people on this site say that is show or nothing every other dog should be neutered.

I'm not sure that's entirely true. ;) Very few people here are in favour of routine neutering - just as they're also not in favour of random breeding either! Animals can be kept entire and not used for breeding ... ;) There are also many people who work their dogs in one form or another, whether it's obedience, or agility, or shooting. To further their lines from that angle is equally as acceptable as the showing angle.

In a perfect world, the very best labradors (a breed I like, particularly the working strains) would do well in both the showring and the field ...
:)

EXCUSE ME!!!!!!!! Show people don't like hobby breeders??? WTF do you think show people are?  They are hobby breeders!!!!!!!  None breed for money, any profit made from a litter goes straight back to the dogs for food, shows, future litters etc.  We are nothing but hobby breeders.  Yes we breed for the show ring, but out of a litter of 7, how many do you think get shown?  On average, 2, maybe 3 approx, so what happends to the other 4? Well they go to pet homes!  I do not know ANYONE on here that frowns apon those breeding to improve working lines (or agility, obedience, flyball etc!) 

Now I have been told on here by working (lab) people that health checks are more-so important to them as they don't want to have a dog that can't work due to HD!!!!

I am friends with a family who own a working type lab and a muliti purpose aussie.  Their Lab recently beat our IRWS at a local show, (our IRWS is neice to the top winning dogs and granddaughter to the top brood bitch!) Now I don't have sour grapes because they beat me, but they did!!!  They also do agility and I believe trained it abit for working trials (maybe?)!  The aussie at this show went BIS, she was bred by people who show/do working trials, and the aussie has trainned for show, handling, agility and working trials!!!!!!  So I can't see how what your saying is correct.

I can understand how in a breed like labs, some of the show ones have been bred to look totally different, however from what I have seen show stock is improving?

I'm sorry but show people are hobby breeders, or working people only want to breed so a dog can work! :)

Im sorry but i have seen on several occassions when people come to this board looking for help and advice.  What happens?  All to often they get very aggressive replys.  I have come accross many a show person that does in fact 
make a profit from Breeding, to say that none breed for profit is incorrect. There are plenty of people who make their living from their animals.  I do not mean puppy farmers or BYB.

I have often seen people state that if you dont show your dog you shouldnt breed them.

With regard to hobby breeders.
If someone wants to breed as a hobby, has all relevant tests done, but Doesnt show, then would your opinion be that this was fine?

If you breed two winning show dogs and your purpose is to improve the lines and produce a quality show dog, My opinion would be this is not a hobby.

Most of the show labs i have come accross could not work in the field and a KC working test does not prove they can.

I have tests done on my dogs, However i would like to know who states its compulsary to have the tests done.  The Kennel Club will register Untested Dogs.  Please note I would always reccommend any relevant tests.

>who states its compulsary to have the tests done

As a buyer I would :)

>There are plenty of people who make their living from their animals.

Yes, they are commercial breeders, not hobby breeders.

>I have often seen people state that if you dont show your dog you shouldnt breed them

What you've seen is people say that the animals to be bred from should be independently assessed as to whether they're of breeding quality. For show dogs the easiest way to do this is to show them and get the opinion of several judges. Another way would be to contact a few breed experts for a private assessment. For working dogs, the criteria are rather different - they would need to have proven themselves able to do their job.

>If someone wants to breed as a hobby, has all relevant tests done, but Doesnt show, then would your opinion be that this was fine?

As long as the dogs have been independently assessed by an impartial person (everyone views their own dogs through rose-coloured spectacles! ;))as being of suitable quality and have been tested clear of breed-relevant health matters, then yes.

>If you breed two winning show dogs and your purpose is to improve the lines and produce a quality show dog, My opinion would be this is not a hobby.

A hobby is something one does for amusement, not for a living. A good hobby breeder is also a successful one, whose pups are better quality than the parents - at whatever task, whether its showing, working (gundog work, herding etc), agility ...

>and your purpose is to improve the lines

There should be no other reason for breeding.

Unfortunately many of the working-bred labs I've seen are about as far away from the pictures of the early labradors as the showbred ones are. Both sides of the camp need to take a good hard look at what's being produced.

My next puppy is from a "hobby"breeder who has no interest in the breed ring, his only aim is to produce a dog that can do the job that the breed is meant to do & anything else I may want him to do. He breeds at the most two litters a year from dogs that have had all the health tests & the pedigrees researched probably more than anyone else in the breed for health & ability. Odd thing is that these dogs are also very good examples of the breed as well(the parents are not from KC registered lines but registered with THE more important register for the breed)

But I show my dogs as well as train them so he may well end up putting his paws into the breed ring at some time

As I say, a good hobby breeder is also a successful one.

Personally I'd never buy a pup from any other sort of breeder - certainly not one who was reliant on quantity of pups produced to earn a living.
:)

i dont mean to jump in here but after reading this thread i thought i would like to add something from personal experience .. while i do support that dogs should be in the fittest possible health for breeding .. i can't say that i can fully agree with Hip Scoring reducing the risk of HD by all that much   .. we've had rotties in my family for over 10 years ... my mums last rottie girl was bred by a show breeder,, she was the pup of a pair of champions who had been hipscored with very good results .. however she developed serious HD and had to be put to sleep due to the amount of pain she was in ... this in my eyes is living proof that even with the lowest hipscoring results you cant be sure that any pups produced wont end up with HD :( therefore hip scoring does not reduce the risk of a dog getting HD

I think most of us will agree that hip scoring isnt fool proof, but it is a guide as to whether we are breeding from dogs/bitches that are healthy and fit to be bred from, as are the other tests we undertake. Lets not forget that whether we are "show" or "working" orientated, we are, in at least 99% of the time, supplying the "pet" market and therefore we SHOULD be doing the best we can to supply new owners with healthy dogs of good temperement. Breeding pet to pet does not do the vast majority of new puppy owners any favours, and this is what gets breeders a bad name, just the same as puppy farmers and dealers. If everyone bred a litter only because they wanted to improve the working ability or conformation of their chosen breed there would be thousands less dogs looking for re-home. Any self respecting "show person" is looking to breed puppies that are better than their parents. Most of the dogs in rescue centres are there because their breeder doesnt care once the money has been paid.     

I always thought that most dogs in rescue centres were there because their owners couldnt be bothered with them anymore or down to mistreatment plus you tend to find that there are far more mongrels in rescue centres than pedigree dogs .... surely anyone who has a litter of pups and sells them (regardless of wether parents are hip scored or not) wants the new homes their puppies go to , to be permenant and loving ... while yes i agree that puppy farms and back yard breeders are only in it for the money and dont care for the welfare of the dogs,puppies they sell,, surely not everyone can be tarred with same brush ..
I can see things from show / working dog breeders point of view to some extent.. but to state that a dog should only be bred once it has been proven to conformation of the breed by showing or work trials is extremely unfair ... why should a household pet if deemed fit enough to breed,, not be bred if the owner so chooses to do so,, without being classed as a back yard breeder by show or working dog breeders it seems extremely unfair. Im sorry but i personaly disagree with 'if everyone bred only for working ability or conformation there would be alot less dogs in rescue' ... you would still have irresponsible owners allowing their dogs to get caught by other breeds causing the problem of unwanted puppies coz they arent pedigree therefore still filling up rescue centres.

I dont mean to offend anyone here just stating an opinion

Cazzie, What Fillis is saying is that if theres a problem with the pup a breeder doesn't care about it, new owners don't know what to do so get rid of it.  Any decent breeder will take the puppy back and re-home it themselves (normally for a doation to breed rescue! :)

If a pet is good enough to breed, and the owner wants to breed, they go to the breeder and say they want to breed, and they listen to advice then there's no problem.  It's the pet people who breed their bitch to the dog down the road that, on here we don't like!

HOwever lets face something here, A mojority of dogs that go to pet homes proberbly have a constructional fault, mismark in colour, otherwise breeder would have kept or encouraged to work/show.  Yes the near perfect dog might be in a pet home, owners not knowing that showen it has the qaulity to win crufts.  I have even looked at "pet" litters and seen some lovely puppies but why does a "pet" person want to breed?  Surely not to improve? (unless a hobby breeder who doesn't show but still breeds the dogs to how they are ment to be!) They do it because "aaawww we want a puppy from our bitch who's sweet"

Going back to health tests here aswell, what about those breeds with something more serious then hip and eye, like heart in the boxer.  Someone  (who shows and has bred) boxers was asked if someone could use one of his dogs.  He said yes, have you had health checks done and they didn't know what they were!!!  ANyway Talks them round, health checks done, hearts done.  Dog come back with heart score too high.  he then tells them "no" and also see's bitch, bitch is a flashy red and his dog is a flashy red.  Therefore going to cause many whites (possibly)  Now if that happends, we end up with more blind/death dogs that people don't want!

Wel I do not know of anyone who breeds for profit.  However They do admit profit is made.  One friend of mine breeds and has afew dogs for stud.  Any money earn't from these goes into an account purposly for the dogs.  This account pays out for all vet bills, food bills and shows!  Yes she makes a profit but it soon also goes!  I know no-one in the dog world who doesn't work unless born into/married into money, won lottery or are retired!

If someone wants to breed two dogs, to improve the breed in ANY dog disiplin, goes the correct way about it, has health tests done, uses dogs that will compliment eachother and has fully researched then I have no problem. 

I am a hobby breeder.  I own granddaughter of top brood bitch in our breed, daughter of a good winning bitch and the breeder owned the bitch CC record holder and owns/bred top stud dog (dogs grandfather) she was not showen much for reasons, but since coming back has won many classes.  We were going to breed her to another ch dog, stunning dog, has had many wins.  This would have only been our 2nd litter after being in dogs for over 10 years.  The pups from our first litter are 7 years now.  I would have been breeding to procuce a puppy I could show, and possibly breed, along with many who would have gone to the best homes we could find! We are a hobby breeder (as it is we cannot breed for the bitch any more!)

It is not compuslury with the KC. HOWEVER The breed clubs I am a member of state it in their ethics.  this then should be done.  If a breeder is not a member of a breed club (who offer support, advice and fun days out) then I would question the breeder. 

Yes my dogs are only show dogs who are loved pets first. 

I honestly dont want to stir up a hornets nest but i'm having real trouble getting my head around this 'breeders make no money'. It's almost as iff breeders are ashamed to admit if they make a few quid from their litter :(

I've read a few replies to the usual 'i want to breed' guest posts,stating how much it costs to breed a litter from start to finish,including tests,shows,vets etc. etc. From what i've gathered one would have to be very,very well off to be a breeder. Everyone goes on about how much it costs to breed,where is all this money coming from?And how do you find the extra to feed your families and all other lifes essentials?

From what i have garnered i think i would have to win the lotto if i wanted to breed :)

I would never frown upon anyone who made money from breeding,i'm talking proffesionals,not BYB!

Maybe if breeders didnt go on and on about how expensive it all was i wouldnt be as sceptical :p

A friend of mine had a litter(against my advice) the only thing she didnt do was health test the parents,the pups(5) had all relevant shots,fed the best food,all had vet checks etc. etc. and she made a large profit at the end of the day,she vetted each and every home,turned down more prospective buyers than were actually interested,she still had 2 of the pups at 12 weeks,but even after all of this she still came out on top.

Like i said i do not want to stir the pot,i am genuinly interested in why it is so taboo to admit you have made money from breeding? It is all good and well to say you breed for the love of the breed and for the betterment of the lines etc. but love alone doesnt put food on the table for family or pups :)

Please dont bash me for this,hopefully some of you will be able to explain and set me straight if i am too far off the mark :D

>Everyone goes on about how much it costs to breed,where is all this money coming from?

As far as I'm concerned, it's that old-fashioned notion called 'saving up'. ;) For others, they have credit cards ... :)

And yes, people can indeed make a profit if they have a very large litter or charge over the odds for the puppies. In my experience the only way to make a financial profit would be to sell the pup I've decided to keep. The sale of the rest of the litter has covered the costs of producing it.
:)

Frodo, :-) Sorry it is long :-D

I personally think this is an area where the breeders who show come into this. ( can't comment on working as don't know costs involved)   The cost of buying decent show stock , keeping, showing etc etc is a huge amount. No expense spared on travel for studs. tests etc  etc. Costs involved assessing your stock by showing is considerable. for example in 4 weeks I personally have spent £360 on show entries and I know some people who will have spent double that. That is just the entries,  not even going down the petrol, hotels etc route :-) ( I dont want to think about it) :-D

Most good breeder will partly use their successes to measure their dogs quality. ( I stress partly). Being a good breeder is a hobby , a hobby taken very seriously.  

This is why sometimes you hear people saying you must have assessment on dogs before breeding, they are given advice based on their own principles.   I don't know how often I have read /heard (not so much here) about how great the the costs involved in showing etc but they same people don't mind happily breeding several litters a year and then charging the same price as a decent successful show/working breeders.  That is another debate all together though.  I personally think every litter breed should have no expense spared on it including breeding from good examples of the breed and not using dogs out of convenience.

If someone breeds a litter and has no huge expenses of course they will make a profit and are telling fibs to say otherwise ;-) .  Thoses who reinvest and spare no expense and and I mean heavily are those who don't make any money or very little. People are not daft. It is pretty easy to see those who do and those who do not. 

I do agree though that there are some breeds where it would need to be a disaster with every litter not to make any profit due to the amount of puppies they have.  I have a breed that I think doesn't fit into that group IF you are doing properly :-D or it certainly hasn't for me. Put it this way as long as I continue to spend as I do on my lot with showing etc I will always have to work to fund it. ;-)  I personally couldn' afford to do it if I didn't work.  I have just finished my grooming groom which has set me back £2000 plus. (don't tell hubby ;-) 

I don't mind sharing this info about my litters :-)   : -

1st litter ****   was the only litter I have EVER broke even on and that was because there was 6 puppies, but even with 6 I only broke even. As it was a first I bought everything and anything I would need. ( a bit like a Hilton Maternity ward) The stud was a 1100 mile trip. I paid someone part time for the 8 weeks to help me with them and I kept one.

Since then I have had 3 litters with the following :

2nd litter ****   with 4 puppies in it  ( 3 that where mine as one went back on breeding terms) I kept one puppy.
The 2 puppies I sold wouldn't cover the stud , travel to the stud , premate tests, and vet fees ( she had inertia all pups were born either in the car or at the vets)  and  general expenses including first vaccine, microchip and registration which I do with my pups and any other bits and piece oh and my part time help.

3rd litter ****  3 puppies ( 2 that where mine as one went back on breeding terms)  I kept one puppy , the one puppy I sold wouldn't even touch my fees so don't even have to go there ;-)

4th Litter ****   1 live puppy emergency section, don't need to even go down this route either.

I have also invested quite a lot of money is showing equipment and grooming equipment, 2 full runs for the dogs at times during the day. Deck these runs out fully to keep them spotless ;-)  bought a MPV car solely for getting to the shows and quite recently bought in another couple quality dogs for showing.

Now I daren't even start with the showing expenses ;-)

So I am certainly one who can honestly say I am well and truely out of pocket financially BUT my wealthy is what I see running around in my garden who I see as a huge enjoyable investment.

My motto is if you are going to do it " do it right"..    Not saying I always get it right BUT I try..:-) 

Hi Blue, but surely you are investing in your future it's like anything you start out doing you have to put in before you get out.  You've bought all the equipment now so you shouldn't be out of pocket there only for parts due to wear and tear.  You've also bought better stock so lets say you go onto be a top breeder, surely in the long run you will get a good reputation for breeding good dogs making people wont to buy a westie off you and i dont know about by where you live but by mine westies are a very popular breed.

Warm regards Susan

Champion or pet pups still are sold by and large for the same price be they a breeder that invests heavily or one whoi takes shortcuts, who do you think makes money, and who does it for the satisfaction of a job well done.

Ditto Brainless.  Like any breed you see some crackers ( not in the good sense) going around from all the short cuts some people take and these people then sell them for good money.  I think I have more pride in producing something with time , effort and a lot of thought and no expense spared that selling something that only resembles the breed because of it's colour. :-)

Hi Susan,

I totally agree with you to a point. :-)  I won't get anything back from my investment in my dogs stuff financially BUT I don't show my dogs for financial gain so the costs really dont' bother me. (If it did I am going about it the wrong way) :-D That is why I never included any of these expenses in my outlay on the litters examples I gave. You will see I listed them at the bottom as over and above expenses. :-) that as an exhibitor I spend,

My point is there is a HUGE difference between the backyard breeder who breeds anything to anything and has a few litters and makes money compared to those who spare no expense and never make ends meet.  .

I personally never think about people buying puppies from me either, any puppies born are here if they don't turn out then I let them go.  I had with 3 puppies I kept all three till 6 months . I could actually have sold them for more  at 8 weeks but I wanted to keep the best one and I couldn't decide :-) 

I see it all as investment in my hobby not investment I see coming back but investment in MY enjoyment . The showing is my first interest and really the main point of my hobby.  Breeding the odd litter is something I think when you are showing you have to do out of necessity to bring out new puppies and improve your line and breed.

I am strong in my opinion that people should breed from good examples of the breed and ethically and spare no expense in doing so.  I have pet homed many a well bred bitch without breeding from her but for me she wasn't good enough to breed from.

Just my thoughts. ;-)

Yes i can understand where you are coming from and i do think your opinion is right i myself would get alot of satisfaction breeding close to the standard but with healthy dogs.  Also i do know back yard breeders who produce puppies each season without health checks are the ones making the money because they are cutting the corners but i bet that plays heavey on the consionce and wouldn't be as rewarding as breeding healthy dogs who do well in the show ring.

Warm regards Susan

I believe alot of breeders do make money otherwise they wouldnt do it. I show 2 dogs and the money for entry fees comes from my wages, and if I can afford to enter then I dont.  I dont breed to fund my show fees as alot of people (in my breed do).  On one website it states "we do not breed commercially" but it is obviously they do from the mumber of litters they have had - why not just admit it?  There are breeders who genuinley want to improve their lines and when they breed they keep a puppy to show.  In 19 years I have bred 1 litter that produced one puppy and I almost certainly didnt make a penny. 

On there other hand you can look at it this way, with the way judging is sometimes (you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours) is the judges opinion worthy, as I have seen dogs get made up just because who is on the end of the lead and this happens 90% of the time.  I have also seen dogs get tickets becauise the judge has used the dog at stud, also I have seen judges give tickets to dogs from their stud dog and I have seen judges give tickets to other judges who are judging in the future and the favour has been returned.  There are also judges who havent got the confidence to do their own thing and they play follow the leader.  Surely this isnt an honest opionion of how good a dog is. 

I also think there are many worthy champions curled up on the sofa in people homes because they gave up showing because of the politics and realised they would not get anywhere.

Sorry folks just my 2p's wort dont expect anyone to agree. :-)

You forget that many breeders and exhibitors are on a fixed income and if they did not have the odd litter then they would be unable to show as often.

At best puppy sales money pays some entry fees, but the dogs still have to be maintained on top of that. 

Or maybe the puppy money helps defray the costs of keeping the dogs, but then show entries have to be saved up for whatever it is I loose at least a £1000 each year on my hobby even though I breed a litter a year on average, only show two dogs at a time and only do about 20 shows a year, around 10 champ and the rest Open or Companion.

Every time I sell a promising pup and the owners aren't interested in having a go at showing I am disappointed as are other in my breed as this depletes the pool of available dogs for us all.  From keeping in touch with the owners we know there are potential champions out there unshown.  sometimes they decide to ahve a go with an adult dog and do make it up, which gives us great pleasure, and is not that unusual in my breed at least.

Why should it surporise anyone that a judge will give a Cc to a dog they ahve used at stud, surely they used it because of it's in their view superior qualities?  Same with somethign by their stud as they are likely to like his offspring.

The owner of my champion bitches sire gave me a RCC as for him my bitch is not girly enough.  At his first CC appointment an owner of a dog by his stud wanted to know why he had placed him low, answer the dog isn't good enough to place higher.  But he has given CCs as has his wife to the offspring of their dogs sister as she has been a good producer of the type they admire most.

I disagree.....  I know judges that have used stud dogs because they know they produce but have said dont bring that dog under me etc etc ..... what I am saying is there are people who judge and show just to feather their own nest and sometimes it is so bloody obvious.  Just because a judge has used a dog it doesnt mean they should give it the CC this in my opinion is just being facey and it is so obvious.  How do you know that stud wasnt given free in return for a cc?  Could very easily happen and i suspect in alot of case that is what does happen. 
and as for giving tickets to dogs from their stud dog then arent they just trying to get their stud dog up the ranks in the top stud league???  I know you can think about it and interpret it in many different ways but showing is very political - some breeds worse than others and in big kennels it all boils down to one thing ££££££££

After writing the above I still show because for me it is a hobby and one that I enjoy and I hope that occasionaly there will be a judge that goes on the dog and not who is at the end of the lead. :-) I know these judges do exist bt it is a shame there arent more of them.

No of course they shouldn't give it the CC just because they have used it, but if it is a good dog (not just a nice dog that produces well) then why should they not give it just because they have used it.

Liisa

"as I have seen dogs get made up just because who is on the end of the lead and this happens 90% of the time.  I have also seen dogs get tickets becauise the judge has used the dog at stud, also I have seen judges give tickets to dogs from their stud dog and I have seen judges give tickets to other judges"

Lets flip the coin here, how do you know what you have said above is true?  you are guessing?

A judge using a dog at stud then giving the same dog a ticket is normal and nothing wrong with it that is normal. (or did you mean that the other way round .. someone using the judges dog before a show). I would like to think if I selected a dog for a stud then I would also give it a ticket NOT because I am bent but because I think it is the best dog. That would be why I used it at stud also.  It would be a bit daft to use a dog at stud yourself then throw it out of a class would it not :-))

A judge may also give tickets to progeny from his/her stud dogs BUT maybe the dog is nice , it certainly is likely to be that judges "type"  of dog.

FINALLY This is your opinion and you are right to have it BUT if this is the case then why do we all keep showing ?  maybe it happens but not as often as you have said our you wouldn't be showing. :-)

As I said in an earlier email although it is bent I will continue to show because I enjoy my hobby and thats what it is for me - a hobby!!!   I know what I have said is correct and I did say it may not happen in all breeds but it does happen in mine - nobody can convince me otherwise.  :-)  Cheque book champions spring to mind and I see it all too often.  Sad but true, it happening and always will do aslong as these judges get the entries.  

Liisa i do think you are right in what you said about the judges because if it's you scratch my back and i scratch yours that dog who has done well in the show ring then goes on to produce puppies and they mighten even be healthy or meet the standards which is very wrong in my opionion.

warm regards Susan

It is a sad fact but yes its true.  Not all judges are bad and facey but I am afraid alot are.  I know of a dog on 2 CC's that went under a judge but with a different handler and got binned.  The judge later asked the breeder why the dog wasnt entered, her reply was that it was entered but had a different handler.  The judges reply was "oh if you had taken it in then it would have got the CC" - the judge is an all rounder - obviously hasnt got a clue about the breed nor got the confidence to do his own thing he just goes on faces being at the end of the lead.  And to think people pay £20+ for an entry when most of the time it is a dead cert who will get what.  Terrible.

"If you breed two winning show dogs and your purpose is to improve the lines and produce a quality show dog, My opinion would be this is not a hobby"

why ! - breeding to produce a quality show dog is most definately done by most exhibitors  as a hobby - believe me there is precious little profit to be made once you have taken out the costs involved in showing and most of us that bomb up and down the motorways at the weekend to show our dogs have to work during the week at something else and  in order to maintain our HOBBY.

perhaps some responses on the forum can appear to be a little sharp but that is usually because those who answer the breeding questions try to stick to ethical breeding practices and want others to do the same.

Breeding to improve quality ( either working or show or preferably both :D) should be what we are aiming for and this usually means LOADS of experience and knowledge about what the various lines might produce and their likely health/temperament/ability/appearance.

Having said all this we should remember that folk come on here asking for advice and this could be given in a friendlier fashion sometimes :)

Yvonne

Hi Edie,

we don't breed, but I can see how GOOD breeders wouldn't make a profit. Just done a quick calculation, we do about 20 champ shows a year, with usually two dogs, so that's an average entry fee of £50 per show, or £1000 altogether. You can double that for petrol, snacks etc., so £2000 per year. You can add at least another £1000 for rally entrys+fuel+permits etc. for working for our breed.So that's £3000 per year already without taking into account food, vets bills etc., say another £1500 at a rough guess. So £4500 per year. If I bred a three year old bitch, that's £13500 altogether. If she had five pups, we'd probably keep at least one, and sell the rest at £600, so a 'profit' of £2400. Not a lot out of £13500! It might seem like a profit at the time, but in the long run it isn't. That's why we have to work too!

And husky, not to forget the same traveling, snack (maybe not entry as I don't know these prices!) costs would work wether your agility, working, obedience etc! :)  Where infact I find more people have a caravan and find a camp site for the show.  So your's doesn't just apply to the show people! :)

Hello Clair, bet you are lost just now. Not how you expected your post to turn out.
Dont worry too much about your dog. I suggest your next step should be a vet. At least if she is in pup he will have some idea when they are due.
Dont worry too much about health checks, whats done is done.
It is possible for a dog much younger than yours to produce pups, she could be in pup.
If she is good luck and take care. Sharon
If you want to chat or any advice feel free to pm me.

Icequeen,your a teenager arent you? How do you afford all of this?

Thanks for the rundown Husky :) I still cant understand how the average person can afford to do this,especially ones that have a few dogs?

Frodo - I think you'll find that Icequeen comes from a dog-loving, dog-showing family!

(Not mine, I hasten to add :D )

Margot

Frodo to do it well it is very expensive. I sometimes can't believe myself how much I spend honestly.

I thnk how I afford stuff is not a question you should ask.  However behind me I have two generations of dog showing family, and I have been involved with litter since a young age.  I saw my first litter at about 5-6 I think.  I have always shown an intrest in the breeding of the dogs and spent many of hours "revising" possible studs.

Everyone affords to do it because we cut back on other thinsg like holidays, evenings out etc etc etc.  What one person spends on a holiday, another will put into a litter.

I thnk how I afford stuff is not a question you should ask

Thats ok you dont need to answer Rox, I'll just assume mum and dad do it :)

you do that! :)

Im not saying that the relevant health tests shouldnt be done .. especially in breeds that are prone to health problems they certainly should be done ... all im trying to say is that if a person owns a dog who is not used for show or working ..but meets all the relevant breeding criteria and the owner has reseached enough about the breed to want to have pups then why should they not be allowed to do so with out being slagged down by show/working dog breeders and called BYB

As far as BYB not being interested in their pups (which we all know) ive heard of plenty of pups bred by show/working dog breeders who are equally as disinterested in their pups once they have been sold ..for instance a neighbour of mine had a 9 month old pup bought from a breeder who showed all her dogs ..the pup keeled over and died one day out of the blue at just 9 months old .. it turned out to be some genetic disorder (cant remember exactly what it was) but when he went back to the breeder to inform her of this she wasnt interested.. even though he had signed a contract stating that she should be informed of anything regarding the pup.
On the other hand a friend of mine bred her dogs she neither shows nor works .. hadnt had them hip-scored, but had had both parents vet checked before hand... all pups went with a contract stating that if the new owner no longer wanted pups they have to be returned to her immediately .. she also unscrupiuosly vetted each buyer .. turned away loads .. every pup was sold at 9 weeks .. and she also insists that all new owners keep her updated on the pups .. does this make her a BYB ???  needless to say actually she ended up rehoming her bitch after the pups were gone after some evil peson poisened the sire and killed him .. and also coz she couldnt take the grief she got from show breeders over her litter she was called a BYB by these people and recieved nothing but a string of abuse via telephone calls and email from these people which i neither think was fair nor very nice. As this poor women put every ounce of  her energy into these animals.

Also quite frankly anyone putting a dog into a rescue coz there markings arent quite right shouldnt be allowed to own a dog anyway .. as the saying goes a dog is for life .. you cant buy a dog and then turn round and say that simply coz it looks a little different to other dogs of its breed that you dont want it anymore ,, you'd have to be pretty heartless to do so.. you love a dog from the minute you get it regardless of any faults it has,, any dog can be born with a fault regardless of how good its parents are

"n the other hand a friend of mine bred her dogs she neither shows nor works .. hadnt had them hip-scored, but had had both parents vet checked before hand... all pups went with a contract stating that if the new owner no longer wanted pups they have to be returned to her immediately .. she also unscrupiuosly vetted each buyer .. turned away loads .. every pup was sold at 9 weeks .. and she also insists that all new owners keep her updated on the pups .. does this make her a BYB ???  needless to say actually she ended up rehoming her bitch after the pups were gone after some evil peson poisened the sire and killed him .. and also coz she couldnt take the grief she got from show breeders over her litter she was called a BYB by these people and recieved nothing but a string of abuse via telephone calls and email from these people which i neither think was fair nor very nice. As this poor women put every ounce of  her energy into these animals."

Sorry BUT Yes it will if it was done for the wrong reason....

You are condeming someone for rehoming a dog because it has poor markings but not condeming you freind for rehoming her bitch because someone was giving her grief about her breeding habits.. 

I am sorry to say this also but this is very strange and seems to me almost a  hysterical post to read Cassie and hard to believe. I find it hard to believe so many people would go out their way to cause so much harm to a innocent person.

Yes all dogs can be born with faults that is life and the compications of genetics BUT breeders should do all they morally can do to prevent adding to them. :-)

she didnt rehome her bitch for the grief she got over her litter as i said she rehomed her bitch after someone poisened and killed her male she didnt want take the risk on this person doing it again (as it turns out it was her next door neighbour who has a vendetta against the breed she owned :( ).. it was a heartbreaking decision for her to make, so no i cant condemn her for not wanting to take the risk on having another dog murdered!
while i can condemn anyone not wanting a dog because of its markings .. that seems to me a pretty pathetic and heartless excuse to put a dog into rescue ..

Im not saying anyone has to agree with my point of view after all its only my opinion and if you found my post hysterical then im glad i could offer you some amusment but i neither found the situation nice nor amusing .. what i did forget to mention in my post was that her breeding her 2 dogs was not intentional it was an accidental mating but because she refused to abort the litter she got aload of grief and abuse from the breeders in her area over it .. which im afraid to say i see all too often :( at the end of the day accidents do happen even to the best of people ,, but seems to me that too many people get condemned and shot down in flames over it :(

Hi Cazzie,

You clearly said "and also Coz" :-)

"needless to say actually she ended up rehoming her bitch after the pups were gone after some evil peson poisened the sire and killed him .. and also coz she couldnt take the grief she got from show breeders over her litter she was called a BYB by these people and recieved nothing but a"

But anyway I didn't mean to nit pick your post I just found the content in it like something out of a TV drama :-) SORRY :-)

I am glad you have cleared up who it was that harmed the dog as I would have seriously doubted it was someone or other breeders annoyed at her for BYB practices.  Someone who harms a dog is not " the norm" so not really suitable as an example of the general peoples behaviour in my opinion.

  Whist yes some ethical breeders verbally object to BYBs and breeding unethically I would have found  it hard to beleive they would cause so much harm. Your post which did sound hysterical makes me have visions of her
being witch hunted with banners outside her door . :-)   I find it hard to believe people wouldn't have better things to do with their time.

Another thing I  find strange is how do so many breeders local to her know all about her doings.  If it was a one off accidental litter I find it hard to believe anyone would really give a Hoot about it or even know.  It is different if she was the local huge puppy farmer people were trying to shut down. Do you see what I mean..? it doesn't make any sense.  

BTW of course people do rehome dogs that don't turn out for showing BUT to good pet homes and not for breeding just like a puppy would be sold . Not to rescue. Again if you know of a case like this it is in the MINORITY and one offs I am afraid.

Im not for one minute agreeing with what Cazzie is saying but I had a friend whos ex let their dog get to their bitch whilst in season she produced 8 pups and the breeder who is VERY well known and constantly in the dog press came over to dock them (which left them with a whole string of health problems which we wont go into) and after that sent emails of abuse and constantly made phone calls.  They also managed to put off any puppy buyers who phoned them researching the pedigree just because they did not agree about this accident.  They also called the RSPCA on them. So it does happen that people get harrassed - I dont think I would get rid of my dog because of it though :(