I am alittle confused.  A dog is born with it's markings so why wouold anyone buy a dog and then give it to rescue because the markings were poor????

If you mean a breeder chose to home a mismarked pup rather than keep it then I don't see your pont at all.  It is up to them which in a litter they wish to keep and they will wnat to keep the one nearest the standard if they are a breeder/exhibitor, the same as the working dog breeder will choose the ones showing most working aptitude.

If someone has an accidental mating then they deal with it, either having the bitch spayed or if needed for future breeding then there is the morning after jab or culling the litter after birth.  Puppies should not be bred by accident, evey pup should be bred with care and from typical health tested parents of uneimpeachable temperament.  Anythign less is cheating potential new owners.

Even then as you pointed out things will sometimes go wrong.  A puppy dropping dead at 9 months is sad, but can happen for any variety of reasons.  A bitch I bred in my first litter dropped dead at 23 months old, the vets could find no reason at all as all the organs were healthy.  Her sister is now a healthy 10 1/2  year old (as are her littermates) and has 3 generations of healthy descendants.

What was the breeder expected to do?  How do you know they did nothing with the information? 

If reputable they would have investigated further, informing the stud owner, so that a similar combination of lines was not put together just in case.  This is what is meant about researching lines.

''culling the litter after birth.''  
isnt this cruel and unethical and against everything anyone as an animal lover would do .. you dont kill puppies simply because they were born as a result of an accidental mating ... I quite honestly dont see how anyone could consider this :(

It's called being responsible Cazzie, rather than selling your mistakes to innocent families! :( 
Unpleasant, I agree, but responsible, which doesn't seem to be an 'in' word these days when everyone seems to feel that they are entitled to do whatever they want! :(

Im sorry you may see it as responsible but i see it as cruel and barbaric to slaughter innocent puppies :(
if someones dog is accidentally caught and has pups .. then its down to the owner to be honest with potential new owners if their dogs arent health tested ... i certainly know that i could never ''cull a litter of pups'' and where i live i know of no vet either that would put a puppie to sleep simply because it was accidentally conceived ...

Unfortunately for that very reason, that people won't take responsibility and deal with an unpalatable situation (though why they don't take precaustions to ensure their bitch isn't caught, failing that get the mismate injection, or even get the bitch spayed to ensure they don't have to make unpleasant decisions), is why my own dogs home is full of litters of puppies, or young adults for whose owners the novelty has worn off.  Where are these pups breeders then???

Cazzie, if you think about the next step in the chain.  The average pet owner buys a dog once every 15 or so years.  Many have no idea that any health tests SHOULD be carried out.  So when Mum, Dad and children are faced with a litter of cute puppies and the breeder said "They haven't had the recommended health tests for this breed" IF the breeder was honest enough to say that, the family wouldn't have any idea what was being spoken about, if, in the excitement, they heard it at all!

I understand why you find it difficult, but having spent 16 years running a grooming parlour, seeing really lovely families proudly their new obviously sickly or badly constructed new puppy in for the first time, and then doing your best to support them through endless illness or operations to try to rectify the bad breeding, then my view of what is responsible maybe different to yours.:)

Also what many people failt to understand and why responsible breeders get so angry at poor breeding is that these badly bred, possibly sick or untypical in character dogs actually ruin the reputaion of a breed.  If the majority of a breed are produced by such people then the general public will assume theya re all like that, this totally undermines the breeds efforts to improive health and quality in their breeds. Many Vets also have negative views of pedigree dogs and their breeders.  Why????  Because the ones they are most likely to see are the sick and badly bred examples, the healthy ones probably only vivsit the surgery for their jabs.

>these badly bred, possibly sick or untypical in character dogs actually ruin the reputaion of a breed.

As is shown very clearly by the state of many Staffordshires seen everywhere. A nice breed which is being ruined.

Not just the reputation of the breed, Brainless, poorly, bad tempered animals can ruin the life of a family.  The either become very attached and suffer alongside their dog for years coping with vet and training bills or they give up and the dog commences of a life, of varying length, through other homes that attempt to cope, so not only the reputation of the breed but the cruelty to both the resultant animal and the family that loves it. :(

>I understand why you find it difficult, but having spent 16 years running a grooming parlour, seeing really lovely families proudly their new obviously sickly or badly constructed new puppy in for the first time, and then doing your best to support them through endless illness or operations to try to rectify the bad breeding, then my view of what is responsible maybe different to yours.:-)<

Agree 100% Val.  I don't know whether to feel sorry for buyers sometimes or kick them up the bums. 

Cassie were there are people who can be exploited there are people who will sadly.

I assume you are a vegetarian then Cazzie ?

as it happens yes i am :) i dont believe in killing any animal unless it is proven to be ill with no hope of recovery or with a condition permanently causing it pain or if it is viscious and dangerous to people 

just my personal opinion im afraid .. everyone is entitled to their own :)

If you see my addition to Brainless's post you will see that, I believe, sometimes what you may think of as compassion can also result in cruelty.  Sometimes the right choice is very hard indeed.

As the saying goes; 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'.

No, it isn't cruel if done humanely by a vet.
:)

Anythign less is cheating potential new owners.

I agree completely Brainless.  I feel the same about the pups produced when people buy an unrelated dog and bitch and mate then together, instead of learning about, understanding and researching pedigrees and travelling to the best possible dog for that bitch.

It's all very well for people to nicely say "Don't feel guilty about the accidental mating.  Accidents do happen - it's not your fault!"  Of course it's the owners responsibility for being negligent - it's certainly not the dog's fault for doing what comes naturally!  It's the new families who buy these pups in complete ignorance that I feel so sorry for.  They don't begin to understand the implications of taking on an illbred puppy into their family without any of the backup that a reputable breeder would give them.

"Hello Clair, bet you are lost just now. Not how you expected your post to turn out."

Sharon is it not best to let people really see the " whole " picture. :-)

Ditto Husky,

I am quite far up and most shows are at least 5-6 hours from me so I have an overnight stay at everyone except 4.

I have worked on just now that EACH show cost me on average £ 175.00 ( Gulp) based on 2 dogs.

averaging £ 60 Per show for fuel, plus my entries,  £40-£50 for travel lodge  I think I would be fairly close with my estimate certainly NO less  ( GULP)

Then if I add this to my already negitive breeding balance...  errr why did we start this :-D :-D  :-D 

I hope my husband isn't a lurker ;-)

""If you breed two winning show dogs and your purpose is to improve the lines and produce a quality show dog, My opinion would be this is not a hobby""

You opinion is your own BUT so so wrong.

Hobbies are something we can take lightly or seriously.  Serious breeders striving to produce better everytime take their hobby serious.

Do you think people travel 500 miles to shows to come back with a bit of card.. and it could be anything else but a serious Hobby.. ( anything else the person would need locked up :-D )

whilst i understand that you could see my friends situation as abit of a 'tv drama' .. unfortuneately this did happen .. the main reason the breeders in her area knew of the litter was because where she lives is rather a small community with of alot of breeders some whom claimed to be her friends up until all this happened .. one breeder actually turned up at her house threatening her with physical violence to the point where the police had to be called ....

yes i did state 'and also' .. maybe not the phrase i should of used. But my friend did state that it was obvious to her that while she had this dog she would carry on being persecuted by these people as well as the risk of her dog being harmed like the other one, while most people wouldnt rehome their dog due to this my friend had children to consider also and with people turning up threatening her on her doorstep she decided that this was the best solution all round :(..she didnt want to have to part with her girl and is still heartbroken over it.:(

Whilst I understand and agree that the vast majority of breeders are extremely nice and decent people i was simply trying to point out that incidents like these do occur .. as bizarre as they might sound to some :(

Having read all of the posts with regard to the culling of the litter.

YOu are all of course entitled to your opinion but are Wrong.

Im not a vegetarian but wouldnt kill a litter of innocent animals as a result of a mistake.  These puppys would not need to be registered and could be given to pet homes only and new owners fully explained to with reference to what health tests are reccommended, why these are reccommended and that these tests havent been carried out.

I also fail to see how you come up with such expenses.  I openly admit i do not know the costs of show fees.  However £1500 to keep a dog for a year?

Firstly my dogs DO NOT GO WITHOUT ANYTHING, they are always provided with the best, however i would be interested to know how this is totalled up, as i dont see how it can cost this much to me the figures make no sense, if i am wrong then i apologise for any offense caused.

Show people are very serious about their "hobby" however there are a lot of people who are extremesists and i have seen several spitefull people at shows.  For example i went along to a charity show - as support RNIBp- and i couldnt believe it, no-one seemed to have fun, and all they did was b*tch about why their dog hadnt won and how unfair it was. 

I also know that certain people would phone someone to be abbusive and yes you would think people would have something better to do but apparantly they dont as these things do happen. 

My dogs work so this is evidently ok for me to breed as had relevant health checks done, however if i didnt work the dogs and yet bred them i would be condemmed as a BYB,   however i have had dogs all my life witnessed first birth at 2YO and helped rear puppies from 5, have trained dogs since was 8/9 and would therefore class myself as more than ready to breed my dogs and in fact would class myself as being more prepared than someone who bought their first dog to show has shown for a year or so and just because have discussed with their breeder then they can go ahead and breed.  I dindt discuss breeding by bitch with a breeder and i guess i this means i shouldnt breed?

Another think i have noticed about show labrador breeders is they all have georgeos labrador puppies from excellent stock champion sire show winning dam, good chunky puppies, Black or GOLDEN.  Have also seen it on Champdogs and not been corrected.

Labradors are Yellow Black and chocolate.  I would of thought that not knowing what colour your dog is, is an indication of a poor breeder.

Sorry about the long post and the going off on a tangent.

think you need to get your fact's straight here I'm afraid.  No-one has mentiond about drowning a litter,  And i like the way you are the ONLY person here who is correct!!!  And why can't the pups be registerd if mother and father are?

I am sure everyone on here provides their dogs with the best, although we may disagree what the best is.  Especially food wise!

Is a runner not serious about their hobby?  Or is a basketball player not serious about thier hobby?

I'm sorry you have been to one show and had a bad experiance, however the last fun show I went to had "serious" show people having more fun then the pet people and a pet/agility dog won!  The "serious" show people didn't win much, however they had afew bottle's of wine, lots of chairs, a spred of food on a table and were having a laugh, not caring where they came in the show! 

I have also never seen a lab person call the yellows goldens, infact have seen them get "upset" about their dogs being called golden!

When you get your facts right you may post again :)

>> No-one has mentiond about drowning a litter

Where is drowning mentioned

Ment to say killing, sorry!

Thanks for your permission to post again

However Icequeen i think it is you who needs to get their facts straight,   i didnt say anything about drowning.  However it has been mentioned for the litter to be culled after birth.

didnt state that i was the only person who was correct,

I did not say that the Pups COULDNT be registered and was meaning that there are other options rather than culling a litter.

Another FACT: i have been to more than one show and seen this happen on more than one occssion so pleae do not make assumptions that i have only been to one show.

And if you have never heard a yellow Lab been reffered to as Goldens I am very suprised and might i Stress PLEASEd by this unfortunatly i have seen this mistake in print and have heard this often.

"I am sure everyone on here provides their dogs with the best, although we may disagree what the best is.  Especially food wise"

With regard to disagreeing what is best food wise, my dogs are fed on a working dog food and for the record its Dr Johns Gold as this is the only food suitable for my eldest as he suffers a protein allergy. Are you trying to say that i do not provide the best? and in what way would we disagree about whats best?  sorry i am a little confused about that coment.

I don't care what food you feed.  I was stating we all give our dogs the best, although we may disagree what is best.  If that is personally your choice and what you think is best then fine and it's what is best for your eldest.  I personally find mine do well on pedigree, others think Raw is the best.  I was trying to get across that we all do what we think/know what is best for our own dogs, even if what we do is different.

I did correct myself while u were typing your reply, for that I'm sorry, I ment killing, not drowing, again I'm sorry.

I have never heard a lab breeder call yellows golden. Yes I have heard the GP call them golden

I'm sorry I interprted what you said wrongly, but still thats your experiance.  Yes bitchyness is at shows, yes I have come across it, I have been to many shows, with many differnt breeds, and each breed is different with the people who are in it.  BUt on the whole everyone is very nice.  and many people are helpful. 

Unfortunately I ahve found that the only people who are petty at Companion/vun shows are the ones who only show at this level and take it far too seriously. 

When I take my champion bitch into the novelty classes and get chucked I do not worry as I entered for teh fun of it and to ad to the charity. 

The pedigree results also need taking with a large pinch of salt as unless you have a judge like Terry Thorne (the only one passed to award CCs in every UK recognised breed) then the results are going to be very much based on the judges expereince and knowledge which may be negligible, which is why I have on numerous occasions refused to judge except for novelties.

You will generally find at all levels of showing the most knowledgeable and longstanding exhibitors make least fuss having been through the ups and downs of the sport more times than the average exhibitor(last five years) have had hot dinners.

I find its the pet people who get bitchy if a show person beats them  :rolleyes:

One of my boys is purely a pet and the only shows I do with him are companion shows but just because I know what im doing he is classed as a show dog by the pet people (the fact he only has one ball obviously doesnt come into it :D :D )

I think I would be annoyed if someone was entering a Champion in an exemption show too! Thought it was against the rules to have 1 CC let alone three?

It is in the pedigree classes, note i said in the NOVELTY'S!!! 

I enjoy these shows very much (always go with my obedience freind)but no longer have any dogs that can enter that are under 10 years old.  Only my two oldies can legitimately go in the pedigree classes, and it is too warm for the 13 1/2 year old usually. 

So I support the show by entering my dogs in the novelties knowing full well they'll get kicked out (except the brace where we often place).

My god, you obviously havent seen how it gets peoples backs up then when someone comes on here asking for a golden labrador, they most certainly do get corrected :D :D

edit to say - why do my posts always come up in the wrong place, this should be about three places up there somewhere :rolleyes:

I think you will find that they are (usually) gently corrected actually :) If the person was to go along to a good Yellow Lab breeder and ask for a Golden Labrador, what would the breeder think of them? Probably that they had done NO homework on the breed

What is better....to let someone go along in ignorant bliss or to correct them?

Sorry, £1500 was the cost of keeping ALL of our dogs. Most people who show keep a few, and if you work them like we do, you HAVE to have a team! Only by working in a team can you tell if your bitch is suitable for breeding, so it's an extra expense. Also rarely will you find that your first two or three dogs are breeding quality, but then of course they have to be cared for for the rest of their lives, and willingly!

Also if you are breeding to continue a line, even if you are very strict with yoruself you will probably end up having a dozen dogs to maintain.  I have approximately 3 years between each of mine and already have five, and by the time I want to keep my next pup Winter 06/Spring 07 it will be 6 assuming the oldest reaches 15 as have the 3 female generations before her.

That is another area commercial breeders save monmey on, they don't keep any oldies, that is when you start to get the expenses in previously trouble free bitches, starting with the spay after their breedign life is done, to any old age problems.

This is the difficult part, Brainless - I have mother and daughter and would dearly love to breed the daughter and keep a bitch - this would mean I would have 5 high maintenance (grooming wise) dogs. I also have to take on board that I want these dogs to live to old age, but have to consider that I too am not getting any younger! I am also in the position that I have stearted a unique line with my younger bitch, so all in all I have a dilemma unless I can get a definite show/breeding home to continue the line.

HI Ikkledevil every book i read on breeding says that if you make mistakes like you've gone to close in linebreeding and the pups are serverly disformed you should cull the pups i'm not saying i agree and i would find it very difficult to do myself but you are responsible for breeding those pups, like in the book of the bitch it says in that that you should put a swimmers pup down because the world doesn't need a dog what isn't a hundred percent.  To be honest i think depending on the dogs condition it isn't fair to keep it alive if it has no quality of life.

Warm regards Susan