HI all. Yep you guessed it, we have pups. Kirra is also doing well. Last night, she tried, she had a few good contractions, but they died off not long after they started. The vets however wanted to leave her for a little bit as she wasnt distressed and see what happened. (lets say I am not impressed and will be taking her elsewhere from now on)
I was so upset for her, she was shaking like a leaf and digging up her bedding so hard that I thought she would rip through the floor. The time eventually come that they did a ceasar and they had to spay her as well. She was approx 8 days overdue and for whatever reason she couldnt do it by herself. She has had 5 beautiful pups, 3 boys and 2 girls. VERY LARGE PUPS I might add. All is well in the end and I am so glad that my girl and her pups are safe and sound. Now all the hard work begins.
I will add more soon, but for now I am buggered and need sleep..
My biggest thanks to you all for your support and guidance so far. You have all been terrific.
Jodi xoxoxo

Congratulations Jodi - I'm delighted to hear pups and mum are well.  Enjoy your sleep, you deserve it :)

Congratulations Jodi that's great news.
What a relief for you all to finally have puppies..you must be absolutely exhausted.
Best Wishes Tracey x

Thank heavens it's done Jodi!!!  Enjoy your sleep but please make sure that someone is watching Kirra and the pups while you do!!

phewwwwwwwwww alls well that ends well xxxx

Congratulations injoy your sleep

So relieved for you.  Treasure them and her.  I agree you need to change your vet.

Soo glad you've had a good result and all are ok :D  You must be exhausted.  Now you can start to enjoy them :)

I would be changing my vet too under the same circumstances.

Well done. :-)

Soooo glad that all has turned out well in the end :d  As has said before it can take a few days to conceive so hey who knows when they are really due?

Very well done, Krankypuss and Kirra!! I am newish to this site but have been biting my nails for you every step of the way along with everyone else!! So very pleased all is now well.

Thank you all so much for your well wishes. If I thought things were getting bad, just wait, they get worse..Kirra has at the moment reject the pups. She takes little nips at them and when they start to cry she goes off and totally ignores them. I am hoping that she may feel a little better tomorrow, but in the meantime I am up all night with her and them to make sure they are ok. I am bottle feeding also. I feel so bad for Kirra, she has had to endure a lot today..labour, ceasar and spayed and waking to these worming little thingeys. No wonder she is feeling out of sorts.
will update soon
Jodi
ps thanks again..xxoxo

Jodi, she feels like sh*t!!  Bitches often reject pups after caesars - they don't know where the pups came from!
If you can get her to lie down and you make a big fuss of her head end, talking to her in a calm and soothing tone, while plugging the pups in.  They need to suckle to make the milk flow.  Just don't leave her on her own with them for the time being.

HI JO
glad mum and pups were ok shame about her rejecting them,im sure shele come around and everything will be ok!
take care sarah x

Hi Jodi

Glad the is/isn't she ordeal is over although sorry for you both that she had to go so far over and down the caesar route -but all's well that ends well :)

Val's right re. pups need to suckle from her to stimulate the milk to come through - also the first couple of days what they will get from her is the valuable colostrum they need.  She's bound to feel sore, cranky and bewildered by everything she's gone through but keep her in with her pups - constantly supervised - and try to soothe and relax her while she's lying down and hopefully she will quickly respond to you and not even notice the initial suckling of the pups. 

Everything here crossed for you - know you'll be shattered but that's a guaranteed part of breeding anyway!  Good luck,Teri :) 

HI there
Kirra is pretty much not on this planet..lol, she is very dopey from the ceasar and pain injection they gave her, so I can manage to get the pups to suckle while she is out like a light. They are not drinking much and pretty much, except for the largest one, fall asleep when they get on. I have just put them in a pet carry basket after their last feed, I am going to set my alarm for every hour to let them feed during the night I have put a mattress down for me and Kirra to sleep on. I had to laugh at her tonight. She knows she is not allowed on the furniture,  but when she wanted to get away from the pups tonight, she jumped up on the lounge and looked at me like..come on mum you know I am very delicate at the moment.. It put a smile on my face for sure. I would begrudge her nothing at the moment.

I am hoping that Kirra will come around tomorrow when she is a little more awake and aware of her surroundings. I am sure it is just a mixture of pain and drowiness and the fact she doesnt realise where they came from. I have been with her for hours talking to her and stroking her face, in short giving her a lot of attention and praising her. I cant get the vision of her this morning out of my head when she was looking at me crying with all the confusion of what was happening to her. It was heart wrenching. I am also very very angry that the vet made me go and get half the money for the ceasar out of the bank before they would commence the operation. I have only been seeing this vet for 2 months since my other one left town to set up practice further afield. I understand that there are people who rip them off, but what a shit of a time to do that.I have always paid my visits with them in full before, It wasnt like I owe them money or anything.  I was crying and I obviously love my girl, I was devasted with the whole thing. I have already lined up a visit with another vet in town to have her stitches removed and to see what I think of them as well.

The whole situation sits on my mind like a bad luck nightmare, but I am so very grateful that my girl and her pups are fine and healthy. I am sure it will all work out in the end.. Until then I remain physically and emotionally exhausted..lol..
Jodi

Jodi, disregarding the money situation, I really don't feel that your Vet has given you the best of advice, difficult to say without seeing exactly what your girl was doing, but that's what I feel!:(  Do investigate other Vets in your area.  I'm lucky here, but where I was before, I went to my nearest Vet first and wasn't happy.  Changed to the next nearest and ended up with a Vet who was 7 miles away but I thought was the best - but that's another story.

Just keep plugging the pups in while talking to Mum to distract her.

Good Luck with the new vets, I think you are right to change. hope you get some sleep soon I'm sure you need it. But congratulations on the new arrivals, Hope Kirra excepts them and feels better soon.

WELL DONE !!!!
Lynn.

Back again. Here in Aussie it is 12.22am Kirra has woken up and decided that she doesnt like the pups one bit. She is lunging at them and trying to bite them. I have called the vet and she suggest to keep them well away from kirra tonight and give her a go tomorrow. If Kirra is still reacting the same then, it looks like we will have to hand rear them. A friend suggesting muzzling kirra, but the vets think that it will make her more distressed as she seems intent on wanting to kill them. SO far they are not taking to the bottle, they are getting a little, but i guess it is more perserverance than anything. I am desperate for advice. I am so very tired and the pups are crying, maybe for food or comfort from their mum...likely to be both. The joys of mothering huh...lol. any suggestions most welcome

I think I read in the book of the bitch to perhaps crate the puppies next to mum so she can see and hear them but cant get to them - Im sure it said to try this for a couple of days while her hormones kick in and the mothering instict comes to her. Fingers crossed that this will happen and she will start pining for them.
HTH Aimi x

Hi Jodi,

You will need to remember to help toilet them too if mum's not safe around them.  Use some damp cotton pads and mimic their mum's licking action with it to help them eliminate.

Maybe she'll feel more relaxed in the morning :(   Good luck, Teri

Krankypuss,

Did your vet give her an Oxytocin Injection??  I have heard reports of this causing the behaviour you are seeing in your bitch.  If it is this then she may come round to them in time.

Shame you're on the other side of the world!!!  I'm sure that Kirra is still feeling drowsy and confused by the anaethestic.  It's one of the reasons that airlines don't like sedating animals flying because they are confused and behave out of character!  Also her hormones won't have kicked in because she hasn't gone through normal labour - it's not usual.  But rather than bottle feed, if you have another pair of hands around to make sure that Kirra doesn't hurt the pups, then I would still try to 'restrain' and calmly talk to her head, while someone else plugs in the pups.  It's really important that they take colostrum from their Dam, and the more they suck, the more her hormones will kick in.
But please don't leave her unattended with the pups until things settle down.

Kranypuss I am not sure how many hours has passed now sincer her section but sometimes it takes a good 36-48 hours for to be 100%. My little bitch didn't know where she was at all.

Stay with her all the time.

Can you get someone to help top up the pups, or to talk to the bitch while to sneak the puppies on for feed.

Keeping them hydrated is probably the most important thing is the first 24 hours.

My bitch had a section 5 weeks ago, although she hated the sight of her pups to start with once she came round properly she was perfectly fine with them.

I also hand reared a litter last year, I remember we started off with 2ml of welpi every 2 hours, 2ml is tiny, so although you think they may not be getting alot, they are probably getting enough.  I does take some doing getting them to accept the bottle, you also have to remember to wind them and make them pee and poo.

Fingers crossed for you that mum feels better tomorrow and starts to accept her babies.

Val, I am perfectly aware of how kirra is feeling. So shame on nothing. I am not bagging out on my girl, I am simply stating how worried I am. Kirra is hell bent on killing them. I cannot try to let them feed on her, even with someone elses help as kirra becomes very aggressive and tries to bite them. She is so much worse this morning. They are in a pet carry case that is lockable, but she is trying to knock the cage over and pawing and the holes growling. If I let her have a look by just lifting the lid a little and speaking calmly to her and praising her she still reacts the same. She has drew blood on one of the pups. Like I said I am very aware of what she has been through, I have been there the whole time remember? I have witnessed it and have spent more hours awake than asleep, so please do not tell me that I should feel shame!

I think you have misunderstood Val quite badly, maybe it is different phraseology.  "Shame your on the other side of the World!!!" in this context was meant  as what a Pity you are so far away, too far for her to help you :D

Have you got a muzzle?  If so muzzle her and put those pups on her. 

The colostrum is vital for the puppies so you should persevere, and of course mothers milk is much better for them than any formula, even if you have to top and tail them they should if at all possible feed from her.

I think you have misunderstood Val quite badly, maybe it is different phraseology.  "Shame your on the other side of the World!!!" in this context was meant  as what a Pity you are so far away, too far for her to help you

I agree Brainless. Val has offered excellent advice Krankypuss and you read her post totally wrong. Knowing Val, she would be helping you in person if she could ;)

Hi Krankypuss, Congratulations on the pups. I had a similar experience last year. I have English Bull Terriers.My girl however gave birth to her puppies ( first litter) by natural means. She had 10 all quite large puppies  and on the 3rd day decided she didn't want them any more. She really frightened me. She turned on me whilst I was putting the puppies on her. She got hold of one and shook it violently and threw it across the room. I was on my knees at the time and couldnt get up She had me pinned. Luckly we don't leave the puppies with the bitch as Bullies can be very clumsy, I managed to lock the others away in a cage and held on to her for dear life until my husband came in from work, which was only about 30 mins or so. The puppy was ok, but my bitch was completely out of character, she has never been fierce before. We rang the vet and he didn't want to know. We took her anyway and damanded a blood test straight away just incase her calcuim levels had fallen as this can make the bitch out of sorts, but she was ok. We got her home and decided to try and hand feed. You can well imagine 10 puppies 2 hour feeds, by the time I'd finished it was time to start again. I was worried that they weren't getting enough to eat and that  she would end up with mastitis, so we decided to be cruel to be kind. We muzzled her , my husband held her down I put the pups on 5 at a time for 10 mins then finished them off with whelpi. It was heartbreaking but it needed to be done. We had to carry this on until the pups were 4 weeks old by which time they were weaned. I was spoon feeding them baby rice and whelpi at 3 weeks old. Even as they grew she would have nothing to do with them. If she could of gotten to them she'd of really hurt them! 

Hi jodi, iam pleased your bitch and pups are ok .When one of mine had c she was not right for 48 hours, and the pups were doppy to, but she started to feed them 2 days latter,good luck all the best with babys debbie.  

I realised that the minute I actually posted that post....My deepest apologies, gosh I feel like a dip shit. My only excuse is that I have had no sleep, so I guess some words are kinda blending together. I am so sorry

That's fine. :)  I know that you're tired.

Yes Admin and Brainless know me well!

Jodi, I am new here and don't usually post. I chose to reply to your posts because I felt very deeply for you having only recently whelped a litter that kept me waiting! I don't  know  anyone on this board, but we are all hoping for the best for you, Kirra  and her babies. You are a long way away from us and I'm sure many of us would come and help you if we could. You are obviously exhausted, not surprising with what you have been through. Are there any breeders locally that you could contact for support? I agree that the puppies need to be plugged on to encourage the milk and to supply the vital colostrum that they need. I can only imagine how difficult this must be for you if Kirra does not want them near her. Maybe she will feel better about them soon, if not is there someone who can help you tube/bottlefeed?
I really hope things improve for you soon.
Take Care, Traceyxx

Hi all. Back again. Well things are drastically getting worse. Kirra seems to hate them and is getting frantic about it. She is barging their carry cage and growling and I have to send Kirra out to feed the pups. And then she howls and cries and screams. I have tried to keep kirra occupied and got my partner to plug a pup while I am doing this and she goes crazy. It is not the dog I knew. I am actually a little scared of her now as when I get her to go out so I can feed the pups she growls at me. I dont let her see the pups, in fact for the past few hours I have put them into a bedroom so she cant see them. It is like she is waiting for them to come out and doesnt want to leave and miss her chance. I am bawling my eyes out and I am so worried and tired. The whole journey is turning out to be a nightmare and I dont know how to fix it or make it right. She is still nesting, I think she thinks she hasnt had her pups. Her behaviour is worrying me and the vets dont think it will improve as she is being so aggressive. They think the situation will escalate until the pups or one of us end up hurt. No one here I have spoke to say they can offer any advice as they havent encountered this before. Usually the bitch just rejects them, not tries to kill them. I am so tired, I have just finished feeding the pups, so I am going to try for some shut eye
thanks again to all of you....
Jodi

Hi Jodi :(   You're all having a really rough time of it and I'm so sorry - I wish I could offer some constructive advice but my gut instinct is that Kirra is still partly suffering an adverse reaction to her sedation, probably feeling very sore and on top of all that the confusion of squeaky "things" which have just appeared from nowhere and she doesn't know are hers :(  However you are the one there and witnessing her behaviour first hand so in a better position to judge.
If the pups are warm, comfortable and you've been managing to feed them something and help them eliminate then I don't think there's much else you can do for now except keep Kirra away from them and try to get an hour's nap here and there when you get the opportunity.  Praying here that Kirra herself will settle in maybe another 8 hours or so - have you had her checked over physically to make sure there's no complications following on from her surgery and also been given further pain relief for her from your vet?  Just a thought but she might need medical care herself.  Bless you and {{hugs}} Teri :)

Oh thats terrible, I feel for you and Kirra. This must be hard on both of you and she must be so confused about the whole ordeal :(

I know when Tiva had a section she did not want her pups, the vet had her in with them and they tried to nurse but not much mothering from Tiva at all.... When I got her home she was pretty groggy and I had her lay down and petted her while the pups tried to nurse I just kept comforting her, I did bottle feed for 48hrs and would never want to do that again. Finally her milk started to drop and she was mothering them and all was well after that, mind you I did lose one pup born with a cleft pallet but a minor one, I wonder if it would have been different if she was able to feed from the start.

I do hope all works out for you and things get better, hang in there.
Best of luck :)

Hi Dollface,

Hopefully your experience of your own bitch eventually coming round to the notion of motherhood will give Jodie a bit of comfort just now - they're all having such a negative experience which was the last thing needed with all the pre-birth worries too :(

Glad you were up and about ;)

regards, Teri

Teri

Is ur post to me a lil bit of sarcasm? I see alot of people told how there experience was as well, excuse me... I did say I wish her the best, cause I know bottle feeding a litter is No joy and even worse when the mother rejects their young especially being aggressive about it....

If I read this wrong I appologize

Either way this isn't about me and I do hope things get better for you Jodie and I wish you the best :)

   Don't know exactly where you got the idea I was being sarcastic - totally the opposite as I was being complimentary about the fact that you were nice enough to write to Jodi about eventually having a positive outcome with your own bitch after what sounded like a similarly upsetting start following a caesar - but frankly if you want to have an attitude about it, forget it

Like you said,  it's not about you.  Don't think Jodi needs the hassle, do you :rolleyes:

Teri Iam so sorry :( just having an off day (but thats another story lol) and probably shouldn't even be on here.... Sorry and I do appologize I just reread ur post again and realized I was the one being off.... Nope don't wanna have an attitude with ya, sorry again... To late to delete :(

Sorry ur right she don't need my u no :(

I would be worried that she might have Eclampsia (lack of calcium) which can be life threatening.  Is she string into corners and generally acting strange.  Killing or trying to bury pups is also a side effect of the chemical imbalance this calcium depletiuon causes.

I would be getting ehr to a vet to check asap.

HI there,

keeping my fingers crossed for you.  I think she may still me a bit groggy from the op it is only about 36 hours, some take a good 48 hours. 

I to had a section with one of mine and her milk and care for the pup wasn't the best to begin with. I do sympathise with you as I only had one puppy to care for.  I hope you can keep your chin up as it wiil hopefully get better soon.

Is she getting extra calcium. I am with Bainless I would be a bit worried about eclampsia do you have colical D ( liquid calcium)  She sounds very confused just now. 

Have you spoke to your vet or a vet? maybe they could pop out and give her calcium injections.

I have been reading all your posts and was so pleased everything went well in the end for your girl and pups. So sorry to hear she will not take to them, my girl had a ceaser 18 days ago and would not take to pups for about 12 hours after, but then she seemed ok, but the next day she picked one up in her mouth wholesale and was shaking him, he would not feed properly after that and although I did my best and stayed awake for 4 days looking after him, he died, vet thought she might have known something  was wrong with him, but I am not so sure, I think she just didn't like him, and she damaged him in some way when she picked him up and shook him. The same day she did that I had to take her to the vet in the evening as was worried about the amount of bright red blood she was losing, it was not my usual vet and he wanted to give her some calcium tablets but could not find any, so he said he would contact my vet for him to give me some the next day, but my vet said she would not need them and wouldn't let me have any, also did not think it necessary to do a blood test. So I gave her quite a lot of goats milk to drink over the next few days, hoping she would get enough calcium from that. She seemed fine after that and calmed down a lot, and has been the perfect mother to the three remaining pups. I didn't use a bottle to feed the pup that died, I was terrified I might choke him, when I couldn't get him to suck from his mum, I used a syringe, and put the milk into the side of his mouth. Hope all goes well and your girl comes round to loving her pups, also that you get some sleep soon.

Hi
was just wondering- didnt you say that kira had a hysterectomy too? doesnt that mean she has no ovaries and therefore no hormones?  I was wondering if the vet could give hormone injections to replace the ones lacking from the ovaries? i could be wrong as im no expert but it just struck me thats all.
good luck with the pups anyway
debs

One of my girls was spayed during a C section with ehr last litter and there was no problem with her mothering the pups, though she was very groggy adn out of it for about 48 hours so I ahd to be very watchful, but this was a bitch who had previously had two litters.

Hi jodi, it does sound like a calciam prolem,but did your vet save any of the after births for your bitch to eat as this can be very usefull for your bitch. You are doing a marvelous job ,keep up your good work Debbie.

Hi all. I have taken Kirra to another vet. I have also called another one on the phone. They both say that Kirra would be very aware that the pups are hers, that she simply doesnt want them and is not a good mum.It has been 48 hours at lunch time today. I am going to try to muzzle her today and pup the pups in  for a feed and repeat the same process every couple of hours. I want to see if the feel of them feeding may release something hormonal or maternal in her. It maybe a long shot, but I feel I have to try. I want to give both her and the pups to have some kind of relationship.Even if it turns out that she wont feed them but will accept them would be a great start. Not ideal, but better than what we are goign through now. I think Kirra is getting jealous as well which is not a good thing. I have to put her out on our enclosed verandah so I can bring the pups out and feed the pups and change their bedding. I cant hide in of the rooms as she follows me everywhere. Then of course she can hear them and she sits outside growling and crying and howling until I am finished then she comes in and searches everywhere and gives me looks like I am a traitor. I am giving her plenty of attention and cuddles, but from her point of view I must be taking sides. Anyway, it is 5am here and I am just about the feed the pups. THey are going great guns.
Take care all
Jodi

HI all. My partner and I tried to get kirra to fed the pups just now. Brent held the top end of talked to Kirra while I tried to plug in a pup. It didnt work, Kirra wasnt aggressive as in distressed, but she was trying to get her head to the pup and kicking her legs. I am unsure of wether she just wanted to lick and smell the pup or wether she had something more sinister in mind. I couldnt take the chance though. On the times she has taken a swip at them she is so quick so I thought it best to put the pup back and try again later, next time with a muzzle. Her teats are so full and they are giving her some grief, I thought if the pup can relieve some of that, she might think they are ok, just even for some pain relief. Does anyone think I am clutching at straws? I kinda feel like I am, but I feel I cant give up yet. Maybe I am wrong, maybe she did want to bite the pup this morning. Who knows. All the vets I have rang and seen say she is basically a lost cause. I cant believe that

another quick question...The pups are absolutely filthy, they are peeing and pooping over each other and they stink. how can I wash them? I wouldnt think that I can give them a bath, but I am not sure if just rubbing a cloth over them would do the job. The have been pooing and peeing since the day they were born on their own. The vet couldnt believe it, either could I. I am constantly making sure that their bed is clean and changing it. Any suggestions?

That really is extraordinary! As your vet says, it's hard to believe! A damp flannel then a towelling should do the trick.