Hi all.  I know I seem to be posting about the same old problems, but I'm starting to get a bit fed up with my little dog, Toby, who is a springer x.  He's a rescue dog, about 18 months old, and we've had him for 4 months or so. 

The problem is him messing inside the house.  He knows his walks/trips to the garden are for messing, and he often obliges, but then can come back into the house, and mess again overnight.  I've tried putting paper down to re-train him, but to no avail.  He doesn't appear to have SA, as that was ruled out in the early stages. 

We have recently got a cat, which Toby has taken well to, but I'm now wondering if this excessive messing is a plea for attention.  In just over 24 hours he had messed four times in the kitchen, once overnight, again through the day (I got to work and check on him at lunchtime), again in the evening when I had to go upstairs for 20 minutes, and again overnight - despite having had a poo in the garden, which we saw him do.

I was worried that it was SA, but we recorded him and he isn't uncomfortable being left alone at all.  I'm really at my wits end, and as a result of him messing he is now in the garden 90% of the time.  We are thinking of starting a family and I can't have him continuing with this behaviour when children are around.  I certainly don't want to have to re-home him, but I neither want him to be in the garden all the time - I just want a pet who doesn't mess!! 

I realise that 4 months is not long for a rescue dog to settle down, but when on holiday in a caravan about a month ago he didn't mess once, not even a single wee, inside the caravan, and he was left alone on times.  So we know he can behave when he wants to.  I have a feeling it's attention seeking, and I just don't know how to deal with it.

Any thoughts/advice would be greatly, greatly appreciated, as it's driving me up the wall :)

Hi there, what do you do when you come in and find a mess?  How was SA ruled out - what was his behaviour when alone?  Was he house trained when you got him?  Putting paper down should only be used for easy of cleaning, so called 'paper training' is not an efficient way of training, as it only gives the dog the signal that it is OK to mess indoors.

Hi digger.  We used to ignore his mess, but then a few people advised for me to speak to him in a stern voice, asking 'what is this?', so we do that now.  He knows when he's done wrong because as soon as we walk in the kitchen he crouches down.

SA was ruled out because we videod him on his own, and he was perfectly calm and looked very happy.  He messed about 45 minutes after we left, and I'd heard that with SA they mess within the first 15 minutes or so.  He doesn't even fuss when we leave the house anymore.

We got him from a rescue centre, so didn't really know much about his background, but on walking he went to the toilet every time, so we assumed he was house trained.

<  He knows when he's done wrong because as soon as we walk in the kitchen he crouches down.>

Sorry but he is not showing he knows it is wrong, dogs have no perception of doing wrong, what he is doing is showing appeasement in response to your body language & the "What is this". The way is to go back to basics completely & stay with basics until he is retrained ie ignore the mess put him out of the room & clean up the mess out of his sight. When he is outside go with him & lots of praise & treat.

The messing is getting your attention so what he has learnt is mess means he gets attention(common with lots of rescues who haven't had enough attention in the past)& stress anxiety isn't the same in every dog. My late rescue would never mess but chewed her tail when stressed at being left & sometimes she would chew the fur done to the skin if left alone, when she was left with another dog she was fine. Fortunately after being spayed she never had to be left totally alone again

It can take much much longer to sort out the problems of a rescue dog, especially as the background & past experiences of the dog are not fully known or known at all. My girl we think(due to medical problems)had been beaten(probably kicked as well) & verbally abused & when she realised that this was not going to reoccur with me she got stressed when I & the other dogs were not there(hence the tail chewing)

Our rescue rehomed a GSD bitch with a lady who worked Part time for three hours a day, when her hours increased by 1/2 an hour a day the bitch started to trash her room in the last  1/2 hour(seen on video)& when her owner got home she did exactly as you are doing & the problem actually got worse & the bitch became withdraan as well. The lady did as I advised & removed everything from the room except a bed for the dog & some toys & ignored any mess when she got back & rewarded her when there was no mess(she started pretending to go out on her non work days & going back to the bitch at 3 hours +5 minutes then + 10 mins & after a few training sessions she had learnt the extra time did not mean her mum was never coming back & she has been fine ever since with a much relieved mum who was thinking she would have to send her bitch back.

If it was attention seeking, wouldn't he have sought your attention in the caravan as well?

If you tell him off after the event because you have found a mess on the floor, he will associate the presence of faeces with tellings off and learn only to be afraid of you after he has done it - this will not teach him that outside is the right place to do it.

By the way, did he ever reply to your question about what it was? LOL.

Change of environment & location could have influenced him whilst he was in the caraven plus the length of time he was left might also have been shorter so he might not of resorted to attention seeking whilst on holiday as he was probably the OP for longer

So (and I'm genuinely trying to be helpful here) wouldn't the lack of problems in the caravan suggest that the problem is with the learning that has taken place in his usual location (ie he still thinks the house is a suitable place to mess) and/or with the amount of time that he is usually left rather than being an attention seeking device?  It might sound like I'm splitting hairs but 'attention seeking' kind of suggests that it's the dog being a little tyke rather than still not sure what's ok and what's not.

I see what you're saying, but if it's any help he most definitely is a little tyke!!  Although my main problem is his messing, he is also very 'dominant' around the house, and we have to be so strict with him, otherwise he'd completely 'rule the roost'  He's very 'cheeky' with me, and if I have to tell him off for something, ie grabbing a sock, when I've finished speaking to him jumps up at me and attempts to nip me, as if to say 'that didn't bother me, I don't care' etc :D  He's better with the OH, seems to have more respect for him.  Don't know if that's relevant at all?!

Hello Keeley

This is just my opinion, others will differ, but I don't think the whole 'dominance' interpretation is a helpful one and I really do not believe your dog could 'rule the roost' even if he wanted to - after all, if he ran the household, he'd have to be in charge of absolutely everything and dogs just aren't capable of this - can he do the shopping?  cook the meals?  get the children to school?  On the other hand, I do see that his first owners did not teach him the behaviour that is expected of a dog - and dogs don't automatically know, do they?

Are you sure that when you 'tell him off' and he nips you, he is really saying he doesn't care?  Or does he think it's all a big game and doesn't realise his teeth hurt you?  Or is he feeling a bit threatened and confused?  What makes you think he doesn't care?

On a practical level, tidy away the things you really value and then ignore him if he picks up anything you have left around.  If it doesn't get a reaction from you, he will lose interest in doing it.  If picking up something of yours results in a nice chase game and maybe some pretend growling, then he'll think it's worth doing.

Hi, I guess he could be seeing my telling him off as a game, as I assume he only grabs for the sock for attention anyway - he just looks so 'cheeky' when he's doing it!  We seem to have no control over him at all, or rather I don't, the husband is very strict with him, and Toby seems to do more for him than for me.  For eg, if I tell him to 'lay down' or 'sit' he'll only do it if he feels like it, if OH tells him, he does it immediately.

Which way would you prefer to train him?  The "do it because I say so" approach doesn't seem to work for you.  Why not do as Lindsay suggests below and try a reward based method, like clicker training?

However, if he has any of the other problems that are in her list, then you will need to tackle these first before you can think of training him.  Don't be surprised if the vet can't find anything though - it could still be something in the stress/anxiety line which is preventing him from getting the hang of things.

Remember, if he learns that the presence of faeces makes you angry, he might start to eat them to remove the 'evidence'. Then you'll have two problems to sort out - a training one (the messing) and a behavioural one, which will be hearder to cure.

Thanks for all that.  We've tried ignoring him when he messes, and fussing him when he hasn't, but unfortunately it didn't seem to make much difference.  It's tricky to fuss him in the garden when he's been to the toilet, as we live in a terraced house and have open access round the back, so the garden gate has to be bolted shut, and if I open it to praise him etc he'll just bolt into the house.  Also, he doesn't always go straight away outside (esp if he's already messed in the house) so I'd have to be watching him for ages to see if he messes, and it's not possible to do that.  If I try fussing him when he messes on walks, he pays no attention to me because he's too interested in the other dogs/birds/ducks etc etc, and has no interest in me whatsoever. 

It's so tricky, and I'm really worrying that I'll have to either have him in the garden all the time (which is ok I suppose because he has a nice big knennel) or eventually re-home him, which I sincerely don't want to do.

How about crate training him just to break the habit ?

Thanks for your advice Claire, but I don't have a kitchen/house big enough for a crate to be in, and I just can't imagine that he'd go in it for one second - he doesn't even lie in his own bed.

Hi Keeley

Just as a bit of an aside, if you are to clicker train him, you will get on best if you don't tell him off a lot...as otherwise the clicker training won't work and you may even end up doing something called "poisoning the cue".

I've just been checking up on inappropriate elimination for you and have found some info.

First of all, a dog going in the wrong place isn't "abnormal" but it is "unacceptable" from the human viewpoint ;)
Possible diagnoses for the problem can include:

medical conditions
age related problems
environmental change
incomplete house training and faulty learning/teaching
breed type
inadequate management
substrata preference (ie dog has learnt to go on carpet and can only go on carpet)
over-excitement/anxiety
fear/stress
attention seeking
possible status related behaviour (with other dogs)

It is a pretty complicated area to diagnose successfully by the owner and professional help is advised, after a vet health check up :)

Problems related to inappropriate urination are: urinary tract disease, congenital or anatomical malformation; endocrine disorders; neurological disorders.

Problems related to   inappropriate defecation include: bacterial and viral conditions; obstructions; food allergies; age-related problems; activity levels; changes in gastro-intestinal  motility...so a good health check with tests is important :)

Lindsay
x

Thanks for that Lindsay, I guess I'm just going to have to take him to the vets.  It's a shame because I was really hoping he'd grow out of this when he became more comfortable at home.  I will try not telling him off for anything in the future, but ignoring all his bad behaviour, and see how that goes.  It's difficult though when he's charging round the house like a mad dog!

:)

It's hard with exciteable dogs I know (I've got one :D ) but the thing is not so much to ignore them exactly, (although sometimes ignoring can help in the right circumstances) but to actually teach/show them/manage the behaviour. Teaching good manners if you like :)

A good idea is to use  a sensible sort of "nothing in life is free" or "learn to earn" programme...some are a bit harsh and tell you to not take any notice of the dog at all, others are much more sensible and suggest good plans to get a dog paying attention to "mum". It does take time and patience though, but you will get there, have faith :)

Lindsay
x

Ps try Gwen Bailey's "The Perfect Puppy" or any book by her, her "What is my dog thinking?" is a good one; also her or Carol Price's book on rescue dogs and how to cope with them and train them.

Many thanks to everyone, you've all given me food for though.  I'll most definitely pop to the library and get some more books on dog training, and see if there's something I'm missing.  Thanks again x

Hi Lindsay.. I am new to the site and I agree with what is said about going back to basics.  I have a very excitable almost impossible to handle 10 month old gsd called Skye... I managed to toilet train him in the first 4 months by using a play pen... the theory being "they dont mess where they sleep".   It really works wonders...

However I am having difficulty with him jumping and walking... today he ramed a cyclist off his bike.  Thankfully the man liked dogs.  He is already 30 kilos and my concern is that he is getting to big for me to handle.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  I love him to bits but really am struggling.

Hi :)

The best thing I would recommend to start would be to take Skye to a good reward based training group and take something like a Good Manners class, also perhaps aim for training towards the KCGC awards...that will give a good grounding. Clicker training is something you may want to think about.

Then, you may need to take some one to one lessons, or go with a knowledgeable friend if you can find one, to apply your training out and about in the "real world" as it were ;)

Try www.apdt.co.uk for trainers to start with, and also read up on books and get some of the dog magazines aimed at owners - Your Dog is good for training tips. All this probably seems long winded, but to get best results you build up training at home and out and about.

You will need to watch out for your GSd leaping at peeps - you don't need me to say that :P - because of the DDA. A good one to one motivational trainer could help you out on walks with this problem.

Hth a bit. If you happen to be in Dorset I will gladly meet you, and give some tips.

Lindsay
x

Gwen's site is here with a full list of her books She too has written one about rescue dogs

Thanks Moonmaiden, I've just looked at the website and the FAQ's were very interesting.  She seems to recommend putting the dog in the bedroom with you overnight.  We've done this before and Toby never messed when in the bedroom with us, but it's not something we wish to return to.  She suggests that when they're clean in the bedroom you can put them back downstairs, but if we do that he just starts messing again!  Her info was very helpful though, so thanks for the link.

Keeley,

Just a thought... If your dog is happy to spend time in his kennel, then perhaps this would be a better place to leave him while you are aren't with him. It can be much easier said than done to mask your frustration at a dog making a mess in the house, particularly adult quantities! Whereas in his kennel, it is easier to just accept that he may occasionally make a mess in his run.

If you take the approach of assuming that he will soil in the run, but continue to encourage him to go in appropriate places you could just find that he ends up being reliably clean in his run, and over time get reintroduced to being left alone in the house when he is left. Either way it should take the stress out of the situation for both of you (as long as he is happy being kennelled). Whilst he is with you in the house, continue with regular house training techniques.

My own dogs are kennelled gundogs. I make no specific effort to house train them (they only come in the house for short periods of the day), I just let them out regularly and accept that whilst young they will sometimes make a mess in the run. Invariably, by the time my dogs have reached about a year old they have got into the habit of keeping their runs clean and could reliably be left indoors. I could speed up the process with a more systematic approach, but for me it takes no longer to clean up a mess in the run than it does in the garden!

Thanks Havoc.  Toby doesn't have a 'run' as such, he's just in a relatively large garden (which is in a horrible state - that's the next job), with a nice big kennel should he wish to use it.  He does mess in the garden, and if we spot him doing it we'll fuss him.  I am certainly keeping him in the garden for the time being through the day, as it's the only way I can see to stop him messing in the house.  A friend said that if he's in the garden all day he'll soon see that that is where he's supposed to go as he never gets told off for going there - if that makes sense?!  It's over night I really have the problem with him.  I would put him back in my bedroom, but I don't believe that he's doing it over night because he can't hold it - as he never messes in our bedroom when he's with us - probably because he's happy that he's got his 'own way' again :D

>he never messes in our bedroom when he's with us

Perhaps a) he feels more secure with company, or b) you hear him when he wakes and can take him out?

>probably because he's happy that he's got his 'own way' again

Nope. Dogs don't think like that.

He didn't disturb us at all through the night to go out, and even if we had a lie in it wouldn't bother him and he'd 'hold' it.

And the 'getting his own way again' bit was a joke!

It sounds like he's more relaxed so you all sleep ... on to a winner! ;)

I just kinda skimmed thro so please forgive me if this has already been said or asked...

Do you go outside with him and show him where to potty and stand there with him till he is done then praise/treat? If you do not then he does not understand what you are asking of him and can't expect him to no. Do you use a command word like go potty, hurry up ect? Should be the same word all the time this will help him to undertsand what you are asking of him.... I find keeping them on leash and everywhere you go so does he and even when you take him out to do his business on leash at all given time, this also helps with obedience I find. I had my dog lay down as I was preparing supper or doing dishes, and walk at heel... He's still a baby and it can take a good 6 months to a year to be fully house trained....

As for a kennel can you not get one that can fold away when not in use, this way its not taking up room... I use mine as plant stands lol and I have 2 big ones ( size for a shepherd and I have boston terriers, so they are huge) and 1 small one. Taz I keep in the porch with a babygate he is way to big for a kennel...

whats the dog being fed?  maybe its a food that has a lot of output, perhaps trying a food that produces very little poo might help, he might just have to go often on whatever it is your feeding him, worth trying a low volume output maybe?

Just a quick thought, but don't use an ammonia based cleaner as that can smell of urine to a dog and can make it think it's OK to toilet there...

Lindsay
x

We just use an anti-bacterial floor cleaner, will have to check the details.  We've tried using washing powder but all that does is makes the slate floor look all grainy!  Doesn't stop the dog from doing bugger all!  Thanks for the advice x

I have just thought have you actually housetrained him at all.  You say you assumed he was housetrained.  We imported a dog and he went through quarantine so was never housetrained.  Being a clean animal in kennels he would go in his run and keep his kennel clean, but on days when the weather was windy the dogs sometimes had to be shut in their quite spacious kennels and then he would have to go in there.  Wehn he came out and went to live with his minder he would go outside when he wanted, but if no one had a door open he would go in another room or another corner of the one he was in.  You see he wasn't housetrained and had no perception of it being wrong or unacceptable.

You need to treat him just like a puppy.  Take him out for a toilet every half hour or hour, after a game on waking and after meals.  Use a cue word and when he does perforem then praise lavishly.  Only stay out with him for 15 minutes and then try in another half hour.

Does he ask to go out for a toilet and then immiediately go, or does he just ask to go out because he wants to be out.

By having him in the garden more you are actually not helping him housetrain, as he doesn;t then need to hold on at all and can go as and when he pleases and he doesn't realise he can't do this indoors.

I must admit that no, we haven't 'house trained' him as such.  The reason being that when we first got him he slept with us at night, and never messed, and through the day he was out - so as daft as it seems because he never messed in the house we assumed he was house-trained.  The other day after a walk he drank loads of water, then an hour or so later he began shaking.  I put him in the garden and he did the biggest wee I'd ever seen!  He obviously was desperate to go but didn't go in the kitchen which was fantastic, but then he didn't either have a way of telling me - it was only because I saw him shaking that I acted upon it.  It was my fault really as I should have put him outside earlier after seeing him drink so much water.

With regards to him not being trained when he is in the garden, I see your point, but he has to go there when we go to work - if we left him indoors he was good before, but now we've got the cat he messes, so we've decided outside is best for the timebeing, as if I have to keep clearing up his mess I'm going to get fed up eventually, as he will get fed up of being ignored every time I come home.  I just thought it was better all round.

you say you'll have to open the door to praise him.................you wouldn't if you stayed outside with him - then you can praise instantly, other wise he'll never know what the praise is for.........

I understand that but he can be in the garden for more than 30 minutes before he does something, I haven't unfortunately got the time to be stood around doing nothing for 30 minutes, waiting for him to mess.

On a brighter note we did have our first 'clean' night last night.  Can't really see anything that we did differently, except for completely ignored his behaviour the day before when he had messed.  We gave him tons and tons of praise and fuss this morning.  It's the first time in about 6 days that he hasn't messed.  So fingers crossed!

House training a dog doesn't just happen - you have to be prepared to put the time and effort in. Part of that means going outside with the dog so giving him the opportunity to perform in the right place and then praiing him for it until he gets the message - I suggest you find time or put up with the messing! No offence intended! :) :)

Hi Keeley, you've had loads of good advice so I'll just give you encouragement. You've had Toby 4 months which is about 25% of his total life span. Its not a long time in rescue terms. Be patient, give Toby lots of opportunities to earn your praise and be consistent with him. Dont change the rules. This will build up his confidence. You will all get there and the rewards are MASSIVE with rescues. Ive had Echo since January 22nd and he's changed beyond recognition. He was a lean, scurfy, anxious boy who reacted towards other dogs with quite hideous Hell Hound impersonations - and he constantly wet himself often while humping my legs! :D Now he's well muscled, shiny coated and looks like he's smiling. He passed his Kennel Club Bronze GC the other week and is very polite with other dogs now including our Boxer pup. Echo needs routine, fun and firmness and he's a fantastic dog. Incidently my dear husband did think he'd have to go at one point but now loves his Humble Pie Supersized. HTH.