First of all can I just make it crystal clear that in no way do I support puppy farmers/BYB's, nor am I saying that we (as a nation) NEED any more puppies born that are likely to end up in shelters, or worse.

What I can't quite get my head around is that with all of these 'designer' cross breeds that have come about in last few years, what is people's biggest problem with them? Is it the fact that they are not a purebred breed? Or that they are bred by Puppy farmers/BYB's?

I don't know someone like this but...

If you had a lady who breeds (e.g.) Labradors and Poodles, she has been invovled with dogs for over 30 years, has done very well in the showring, treats her dogs better than her children, and has had 10 enquiries from people who want a 'Labradoodle'. She decides that she will 'give it a go' and on her Labradors next season, the two dogs do their business, and a few weeks down the line the 6 Labradoodle pups are born, all different shapes and sizes, after a while 6 of the 10 people who first inquired with the lady now have a Labradoodle puppy, whose parents had been health checked, and who had also all been given health checks by their vets and all are of sound health. The lady asked £100 to cover the extra food she had paid for and that was it.

I am wondering what everyone would think of a designer puppy that had health checked parents, and all of the rest that you would expect from a reputable breeder of a purebred breed, and which certainly wasn't bred for any profit (unlike the poor little things the puppy farmers churn out)?

I really don't want to cause an argument, and as I said I don't agree with designer breeds - or at least the way they are being bred at the moment, I am just curious what people would think of a cross breed that has been bred with the best intentions.

I think one of the issues here is that the reputable breeders - ie those who genuinely want to improve their breed both in confirmation and health, generally breed a litter in order to get another puppy for themselves.  A by product of this mating is that you get x number of additional puppies which require loving homes.  Personally i would be chuffed to bits if i could order the sex, colour etc of my next puppy from my bitch and not have any excess puppies because i hate selling them. 
IMO genuine reputable breeders are in it for their breed and thier own line - and never to sell puppies for money.

So whether we are talking pure bred or cross bred - if they are bred for the pet market then they are breeding for money and money alone - therefore the welfare of the dogs become secondary.

Thanks every one for replying - and not assuming that I am for these types of crosses!

The other thing I don't understand is as Daisy says there is no type to these dogs, so why do people go and search for a Labradoodle, or a Goldendoodle, or another funny named dog? I know that to some people having one of these dogs is the 'in thing', but for others they may have seen one, or even just a picture of one, and they decide they want one just like it - how would they find one just like the one they saw, if every pup is so different to the next?

LOL does that make sense? I think I got lost myself!

>and they decide they want one just like it - how would they find one just like the one they saw,

They'd possibly have to search for many years, because the nature of a first cross between two such different breeds is that you could possibly get the full range of characteristics of the two parents. Great if you're a gambler - hopeless if you're after a particular quality.

Speaking personally - my biggest gripe is that you don't know what the resulting pups will look like. They could look like either parent or a complete mixture. Therefore you are not getting a 'type'  - one pup could look nothing like another. Also, some people are charging MORE than a pure bred pup of one or other of the parents.

I'm sure that you will get other people adding :)

Daisy

Flippin 'eck Nat are you bored today :D :D :D

Try putting "Labradoodles" into the search facility - or even search "can of worms" ;)

Get your hard hat on girl!  Glad I'm going out of range for a while, Teri :P

Natalie

To add to my earlier post. A girl I work with has a friend who breeds 'goldendoodles'. She only breeds first crosses. They are supposed to be for agility and assitance dogs. But what can they promise the new owners ? They can't promise that the dogs won't moult. They can't say what the temperament will be - it could be anything from poodle through to retriever. They can't say what the size, build will be. The new owners would be better of (at least financially) going to the local rescue and getting a puppy there. At least the money would go to a good cause :)

Daisy

Here's an interesting little fact, just by the by. In my home country of Sweden (live in UK now)  most dog owners (even a lot of pet owners) are Kennel Club members as you have to be a member to be able to show etc. If you are found to deliberately crossbreed, you are thrown out on your ears! And without your membership, you can't show, can't register puppies, nothing.

Marianne

Unfortunately in the UK the KC isn't open for 'ordinary' membership. :(

I think that is brilliant.  Is it not also treue that in Scandinavia the vast majority of dogs are purebred, and mongrels are few and far between?

What is the rescue situation like?

One of my early pups went to Switzerland, and I remember her owner telling me that, at that time anyway, they were only able to register litters of a maximum of eight puppies. If you tried to register more than that, registration for the whole litter was refused. As the bitch he'd bought was from a litter of 10, he was a bit concerned.

I hope that system's been changed since then - it was about 1976 or thereabouts.

Yes the whole dog situation is very different although it has changed somewhat since I left -I moved to England in 1988. (Still subscribe to the Swedish KC magazine to keep up to date!) Until 1989 it was ILLEGAL to neuter dogs and spay bitches, yet we had no strays and hardly any unwanted dogs. Not many accidental crossbreeds either. People just look at dogs in a different way, and think twice before getting one. I worked as a vet nurse for a few years then as a dog groomer, so always worked with dogs in Sweden. When the neutering law was changed, the Swedish equivalent to the RSPCA actually marched to the government demanding the law was changed back to make it illegal to neuter again, as they considered it cruel and wrong. These days neutering is done, but not like here, not as routine, as it is seen as irresponsible even by vets. In the past ten years or so crossbreed have started to appear (when I worked as a vet nurse,  I could count the number of crossbreeds I had EVER met on one hand) but these are all deliberate designer ones. It's become politcally correct to have crossbreeds -so there is now a separate club for them, registering them and having shows and pdigrees for them.... As a result the number of unwated dogs have gone up somewhat, but it is still nowhere near like here in the UK. The only rescue home in Stockholm rehomes around 100 dogs per year (according to a recent article in the SKC mag) and people cannot visit to pick a dog according to looks etc, they have to be assessed FIRST, fill in forms detailing what type of dog they want; size, coat etc, and the home then match them with a suitable dog -and they have waiting lists at all times.

Marianne

This either shows a very responsible attitude by owners or would be owners.  I assume Breeders take responsibility for ther pups they breed.  I wonder if they are made to be responsible for the pups they produce??

Yes, Brainless, most dogs in Scandinavia are purebred. Mongrels of course exist but not in vast numbers. You can say that rescue organizations in Finland are almost non-existing as dogs are not usually abandoned here.
Most dog owners are also members of the Finnish KC + members of their breed specific clubs + local "doggy" organizations.  

The rescue business is aimed to the other side of the sea to Estonia where volunteers help in local shelters, supply medicine, food, bedding etc. Quite a few of those dogs have found a new permanent home in Finland. 

Have a look at this thread: http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=65873;pg=1   sorry links don't seem to be working for me these days.  5 pages of everything you ever wanted to know/say about labradoodles and it pretty much applies to every designer cross you can think of :)
I know that your example was hyperthetical but I don't really know any breeders os labradors that also breed poodles, well not the real breed enthusiats anyway (although I'm sure someone is going to tell us they do), they don't seem to attract the same type of people :) so if I did hear of someone breeding their own two dogs in this way, cynical old me could not help but assume they had acquired the two breeds with a deliberate intention of exploiting them in this way.

I think no matter what an arguments going to be caused natalie..However if i stay out of this......:D

Most owners of 'pure breed' dogs can delve into the origins of their breed and find out exactly what crosses and mixes have gone into producing the 'perfect' strain it is today :)

One of the main things I have against this type of breeding is that they are being bred for their cuteness, because they are popular, because people think they like would like the mix (in this case they like labradors and poodles and think they are a good mix).  I've heard all these reasons cited - the non-shedding one has some validity except there are already plenty of non-shedding breeds, and guide dogs assoc abandoned the cross as it was not as successful as they had hoped.  Dog breeds in the past have been bred for a purpose / job that gave the breeders something to breed towards.  There appears no real aim in breeding these crosses except they're cute / have a cute name / they're popular.

Most of the supposed attributes in these designer dogs are already out there in other breeds if people looked properly, but unfortunately most people are taken in by the daft names.  If they wanted a working dog, surely somewhere, there are Poodles about which have the old working ability or has it been totally bred out of them?  Why don't they go and use them?  Is it because they look nothing like the show type?

I know in my breed that we definitely have a working and non-working line.  I hope that my breed will be able to keep their working ability although of course many of us do try and keep the natural ability in there.  Luckily we don't have a big variance of the working type and non-working type in looks, but maybe this is because the breed hasn't had to have such a precise look and style that some other breeds as there is a big variation in our breeds height range so you get to see quite a variation in the show ring, but they are all acceptable if they fit within the barriers of the breed standard. 

I really cannot see what the problem is with what you are calling designer dogs. I have a breed that has 2 distinct types, both of which have in some cases been taken to extreames. Breeding within a small gene pool to accentuate some of these traits is surely at least as bad as say crossing a lab and a poodle to try and obtain a good working line. If I knew of a working line of poodles that would be an option but I have honestly never heard of one, although I do know a very few who have some working ability left.

You say that you cannot guarantee type or ability. I would say that guaranteeing type at the cost of having a robust and healty dog is just as wrong. Ability is never guaranteed as even with in the same litter there will be varying levels of ability and temprement.

To my mind the importaint thing is a healthy dog with good temprement and ability to do the job it was intended for. Not every one buys crosses because of how they look just as not everyone will want to breed on from them.

You are right it is just as bad :) but that doesn't negate anything that has been said about designer dogs, two wrongs don't add up to a right.
I've never head of someone crossing a labrador and poodle to create a working line all the litters I have seen advertised have touted the possibility of a low allergy dog, non shedder or just simply a cute name :rolleyes:

Oh dont get me wrong a bad breeder is a bad breeder no matter what they are breeding. What I have an issue with is the idea that is mooted earlier in this thread that you chould ONLY be permitted to breed pedigree dogs. After all are they not often bought because someone thinks they will fit their image or because they like the look of them?? 

As for crossing Labs and poodles for working lines I know of at least 2 litters that have been produced specifically for this purpose, just as people who want their dogs primarilly for work often cross cockers and springers (sprockers) or labs and springer (springador). After all breeding to meet a specific requirement is where most of the pedigrees started out. :)

what really gets me is famous people carrying 'lap' dogs around and they are wearing gucci collors and little booties etc.i worry people may copy and that these tiny breeds will come into the hands of puppy farmers,who sell 'designer' dogs to make money.

I know what you mean, but then I worry about anyone who wants a dog that is mainly carried :o

true! i think the joy of owning a dog is walking it!!!

And being 'bounced' by it! :D