There are a fair few breeders on here, there are also many people who believe there are too many dogs in rescue etc...

I was reading a post where people (breeders and dog owners) were trying to put her off saying there are already plenty of this breed around. Her dog was hip scored, gd temp. etc etc.... Sooooooooooo my question is, yes there are ALOT of dogs around in rescue...so why are so may of you guys still breeding? Why is it ok for 'you' to breed but not others even though their dog is 'of standard'? What 'gives you the right' to put people off?? Is it purely to try and improve breeds etc? Do you ever think 'Im not going to breed anymore, at least untill rescue figures drop'?? Do you think if there were only a select few people breeding that these figures will drop?

NB: I am not digging in any of these answers, honest, But I'm trying to ask in a way you will understand...please dont shout at me :o

Jussssssssssssst curious :)

Well Zoe, the way I see it, it's not a case of putting people off. It's a case of making people think, and trying to make sure that they have thought of everything by giving the benefit of our collective experience.

Dawn R.

ok thank u :)

You're welcome :)

It's like helping somebody to make an informed decision. Unless people are armed with all the neccessary information, then they are likely to make an unneccessary mistake. Unless somebody tells you that health tests are a good idea, and WHY, then it's impossible to take that into considerstion when making a decision. Same with the cost of rearing a litter, It cost me around £1000, and my litter consisted of only 2 puppies, neither of which were sold, so I'm out of pocket.

I think it's easy to imagine that breeding a litter of puppies MIGHT be a licence to print money, but in reality, done properly, it most certainly is not. So you might say that might encourage more people to do it improperly, but we also encourage would be breeders to have some pride in producing the best litter they can.

Dawn R. :)

I'm a total breeding ignoramus - so please excuse the question :D In a numerically smal breed, obviously (I would assume) the quality of dogs getting places in shows is likely to be further away from the breed standard than in numerically larger breeds. How much more difficult is it then to decide to breed in a smaller breed ? Are most people aware of their dog's short-comings even if they have been placed a few times ? It must be a difficult decision to make, as if only perfect dogs were bred from the breed would die out :) I hope that you can see what I'm getting at :D

Daisy

Actually generally the opposite is the case.  Numerically small breeds are largely in the ahnds of people intent on preserving and guarding the quality of the breed, and the worst in a litter are only a little below the quality of their siblings and parents.  Even the sad few that go through rescue having gotten into puppy farmers hads are only a genration or two removed from typical and top quality stock, and in fact one such was shgown and gained 2CCs, but sadly had a health problem (which could have been avoided if health tests had been carried out on the parents).

In numerically strong breeds the worst specimins hardly bear any resemblance to their breed compared to those bred by breeders who show or work the breed and only breed from those that will improve in line with the standards.  The rest are at best bred by pet owners who love flossie and mat3ed her to a dog of the breed up the road in total ignorance of the importance of researching and checking health and lines.  The worst breed purely for commercial gain caring not one whit if the pusp are typical, healthy or of good temperament.

I think I understand what you mean about possibly lower quality in numerically small breeds, but, I don't think I agree neccessarily. However, that's another debate.

Every dog, has faults, even Crufts Best in Show winners. So every breeder should be able to objective about their own stock, knowing the faults and virtues, and being able to carfully choose a suitable and complimentary mate, that will offer the best chance of improving upon the parents. One can only be objective by gathering experience, by talking in depth to those with more experience than ourselves, and reading reading reading. Forums like this one provide an integral part of that learning experience in the 21st century. In years gone by methods of learning differed a bit.

So IF, quality in depth is lacking, then it would be even more important to be aware of shortcomings and choose wisely to produce better. It's one of those 'golden rules of breeding'.

Dawn R.

Thanks, Brainless and Nursey :) I can quite see how 'pet' owners think that, because their dog is pedigree it must be good enough to breed from :( We get enough on here who seem to think that :( Are inexperienced owners swayed by getting placed in shows and should more judges, in small breeds, not offer places to dogs not good enough ?

Daisy

In the numerically smal breeds people are not likely to be swayed much by wins.  There are Champions that have yet to be bred from and good up and coming or non champion dogs that have the qualities wanted for that particular pairing.  If you are nearly always last even in small entries you soon get the idea, also conversely you can have small classess of excellent quality where the smae dogs change places all the time, generally you really get to know where yoru dogs level is by Limit and Open.  Also the breed can be very slow to mature and many peopel fall away just because tyhey have been coming second out of two for a while.  The current leading dog for this year was virtually withdrawn from the ring until last year to mature and now has quickly notched up his title another couple of CCs and a Group win at 5 years of age.

In these numerically small breeds you tend to get top heavy entries at shows with most of the amture dogs in Limit and Open class, and the lower classes only having the current smallish numbers of new dogs.  They are a long lasting breed and CC winners tend to range from two to 10 years old.  I am told that in some numercially strong breeds if a dog hasn't made a mark by 3 then it is unlikely to and no-one show many past five.

Excellent - I understand that, Brainless - thank you very much :)

Daisy

I wouldn't try and put any body off, I just like to point out the 'correct way' of doing it, rather than just getting a dog and bitch together with no health checks.  I wouldn't dream of putting people off, after all we all have to start somewhere and if done correctly we hopefully don't add to the rescue numbers.

I think this is the only reason breeders come across this way, its just to encourage 'newbies' and point them in the right direction and hopefully they won't go into it eyes closed.

I assume you must have read the recent thread on flatcoats and the ensuing debate on colour.

In a breed such as the flatcoat they are not the straight forward laid back dogs you might expect, they are very different to labradors and golden retrievers, they are not as popular as some breeds, and we often find we have more puppies on the litter register than you think we might find homes for. If we sound like we are trying to put people off it is because we know the reality of the situation, know what an undertaking it is being responsible for these little pups who never asked to be born. What we hope we are doing is trying to make people think about all the things which a responsible breeder should think about.

So we don't try to put people off, we try explain the situation and as I did in my post ask the potential breeder why do you want to have a litter of puppies? They are a huge responsibilty, and this responsibilty does not stop the moment they leave your hands!

Saying I am going to take a litter from my bitch because I have been advised to, makes me think as a stud dog owner, that you don't want to do it, or you are doing because somebody has told you, "it's good for a bitch to have puppies". We all know it is not good for a bitch to have puppies, there are hundreds of things that can and do go wrong, a friend of mine lost her bitch and the whole litter during a bad whelping.

If the potential breeder has done all the health checks and can satisfy me that he/she does want a litter from their bitch,for good reasons. Understands I'd expect them to keep me informed of every new home each puppy is going to, will check on that puppy throughout it's lifetime and will unhesitatingly take back a puppy if it needs to be rehomed for any reason, at any point in it's lifetime. Will help new owners with any problems they may encounter during the lifetime of the dog and then if their bitch is a good representative of the breed, I might consider allowing them to use my dog.

In many cases I am not only still in touch with puppy buyers sired by my male dogs, but am in touch with my boys grand puppies and great grandpuppies. Infact one such litter of great-grandpuppies I will be going to see soon. I have mostly kept male dogs and in over 20 years in the breed have only ever bred from a bitch if I have wanted a puppy for myself to continue a good working line. I would never breed from a bitch unless there were good reasons. I don't produce puppies for a pet market as such, if I produce a litter it is because I want to continue a line, flatcoats do have anything up to 10 or more pups a litter so some are sold as pets, but it is as a "by product" so to speak of maintaining my line.

I know of a man who has two litters, one of ten puppies, another of 7 puppies they are now 7 weeks and 5 weeks respectively, none are as yet sold, these puppies are not on Mrs Johnson's book yet, and I suspect that these puppies will have to be run on until they are quite a lot older maybe even six months or older, before they find a home. Why have two litters so close together?

Iknow it does happen that sometimes things just work out this way, but other times the people breeding think they will have the litters to help with the cost of keeping their dogs, by selling "beautiful puppies into nice pet homes". Traditionally in flatcoats the majority of breeders only bred to replace stock never to intentionally supply a pet market.

Another point here (and I'm sorry if it has already been stated) is when a person who you "question" in this thread breeds a litter, they will normally have a waiting list, hopefully for enough people who want a puppy from them.  This may be purly for show or just a pet, some people still want a pup froma  certain breeder. 

For example Breeder A has planned this litter, all health etc has been done and bitch has done well in the show ring.  Breeder A is a respected person/breeder with a waiting list of 15 people who want a puppy from her. 

Breeder B has also planned a litter, bitch has done well in the ring, isn't a top winner but overall is a nice bitch, it's the breders first time, he/she has done all their homework and have read books etc and have spent money on health checks, they want a puppy from themselves, but there's one thing they don't have...A waiting list to sell the puppies to!

You see breeder A has already sold the puppies (hopefully) breeder B hasn't and is hoping demand is higher then supply

As you say, even those people with a waiting list won't necessarily have sold all the puppies, they may think they have enough homes but it doesn't always work out that way. The other thing that I don't think has been mentioned....... (I am blonde so I may have missed it ;-) ) Some people breed for working ability and breed standard and show ring success isn't something they are worried about as a priority. I have a 4 month pup. I have a list of people who would be interested in a puppy from him as they think he is wonderful. He will never see the showring as he is destined for agility and maybe sheep if I can persuade my neighbour.... I have no idea whether he will turn out to be a good working dog and it doesn't matter as I have no intentions in breeding from him. Still I have people asking if I am going to use him for stud, why? because he is a red merle and they think he is soooo pretty! It would be really easy to get carried away but I am not that irresponsible, I don't have bitches, only dogs. I couldn't contribute to a litter and not have any say in where they went. Out of the dozen people that have expressed an interest I only think 2 of them are suitable, scary thought really. Unfortunately a lot of pet owners don't give it that much thought, they think it is easy and they need reminding that it really isn't!

Interesting point to this is in my case having an awkward bitch who has been difficult to get mated I have passed on all my enquiries bar the people who want a pup from this specific mating. 

So I may find I have unspoken for pups, and will hopefully get some enquiries passed back to me from those I gave mine up to :D  I have been getting enquiries and asking people to get in tough when the bitch has been scanned, as I am unwilling to assume anything!

Another interesting point which the previous two posts made me remember is that some buyers appear to be good potential puppy owners when you chat on the telephone or internet, or even when you met them when out with your bitch. They book a puppy and you subsequently find that they are as good a potetntial owner as you at first thought, so you change your mind about selling them a puppy and that means you have a pup with no loving home waitng for hm or her..

In my breed it's often easy to have numerous bookings for males - so potentially a well planned mating with several puppies booked in advance could still leave a breeder very short of homes if most (or even ALL) of the pups born were bitches ;)   I guess in other breeds it could easily be vice versa.  Best laid plans and all that ......

regards, Teri

I agree - I had 5 puppies sold before they were born. She had 8 pups but out of the sold ones only 2 ended up with pups for differing reasons!

If all the pups were male I could of sold them twice over!

Jo

I agree in alot of ways .. when my dog had her first litter last year i had 6 homes booked .. vet said she would only have about 7 first litter .. she ended up having 12 .. we lost one the day after she was born and had 11 survive ... we kept 1 pup back which we had planned but last pup to go to new home was 13 weeks old .. so it goes to show that even with the best planning you can end up coming unstuck

>If all the pups were male I could of sold them twice over!

If only! I ended up keeping both male pups because I didn't have a single enquiry for a dog. Everyone wanted bitches. I wanted a bitch too - but couldn't afford to keep three pups.