Don't know whether I've spelt it right but what are the pro's and con's of HIPP PEN scoring and the traditional way of doing it here in England and which way do you think is best?

Haven't heard of that before ...can you explain the differences please, I would be interested to find out :)

In brief, PennHip measures the joint laxity where as traditional measures the actual joint. PennHIP determines HD on the basis of degenerative joint disease where as OFA determines HD on the tightness of the hip joints and/or whether the joint shows signs of wear. PennHip use three different views on which to base their diagnosis where as traditional use the one (hip extended).

It's PennHip scoring (The University of Pennsylvania Hip Improvement Program).

Below is the link for the official PennHip site.

PennHip

HTH :)

One of our pups in the Netherlands has just had his Pennhip assessment - at 4 months - couldn't believe they were doing it that young!

Luckily (no - good breeding...) he's well down the lowest range, well below the median for our breed.   It was interesting getting his results back, and I suppose you can manage the pup correctly if a problem were to be discovered.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Yes - they state that PennHIP can be done from 16 weeks old (though they do also state that study is required to determine the minimum age for different breeds in order to perform a reliable evaluation). They do say that the reliability of the PennHIP scoring does improve with age, though it is marginal.

I always get things the wrong way round :d Any pro's and con's?

Hi Spanish water dog ...the problem in this country with pennhip is that hardly anyone does it plus they don't have pennelbow   .they have 12.000 labs in their database compared to almost 200.000 in OFA its also cost prohibitive ,,they actually have pennhip for sale a couple years ago and OFA had a chance to buy it and turned them down..its also subjective in that they denote your dog having tighther hips than say 90 percent of the dogs in the database if they were to add several thousand dogs to the database it would undoubtedly change..you can have prelims done at OFA as young as four months there is a good article on the site regarding reliability of early prelims.they also have a great DVD you can get for a ten dollar donation about CHD and elbow dysplasia,,a must see for any breeder

I've just had this email from Holland explaining why they do it at 4 months (posted with permission)
Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Quote:

This might be of interest for you just to know why we opted for this method and why it's different.

The x-rays are done at 16 weeks instead of at 1 year because the purpose of the check is not to know
if the dog will be fit for breeding (so not to see if the scores are good enough for that) but to have the maximum oppertunity to aviod any health problems for the pup.
The X-rays done at 1or 2 years are done in Holland (and the same goes for England I think) to see if the hips are ok so that the breeder knows if the bloodline uses is not prone to HD or to see if the dog itself is fit for breeding.


The reason why it is done at 16 weeks is that at that age the situation is fairly easily corrected via minor surgery
(although it doesn't sound like minor when you read it :-) )

The pelvic bottom bone (hope I spell this right) is sawn in half through the growth part.
Because the pelvic bottom will not grow any further because the grow plates are broken through this procedure the hips will
turn outwards when the dog grows (the upper part of the pelvic bone will grow as normal)

This will result in hips that are in a normal postition as with dogs that don't have HD and the dog will have no problems walking, running or
have any pain.

I know the procedure sound horrible but it's actually a procedure that is considered "light" among vets and it will prevent a lot of problems
for the dog in the future.

If you compare it to a dog which is diagnosed after 2 years with HD the procedure to fix this involves mutiple surgeries and breaking bones
and reconnecting them with metal screws and pins.
Which is a lot more painfull for the dog and their owners

I know it sound a bit vage and it's hard to translate into medical terms.
I can ask our vet if he can send me some examples of X-rays via Email and send them to you if you want.

I've seen the X-rays of a dog at 16 weeks with bad scores and X-rays of the same dog 1 year later after surgery and how those hips look
And also seen a dog that was diagnosed at an early age but the owners didn't want the procedure done....a couple of years later the dog had
to have massive surgery and I've also seen the X-rays from that dog at all stages
(the vet had these at part of a presentation he would give a few days later for other vets)

Wow - many thanks for that. It's not something I've researched too thoroughly (just touched the surface) as I have a breed that can have problems under GA (and as such putting them under at 16 weeks wouldn't be advisable). It's good to know though. I'd be interested in seeing the X-rays if you get sent them :).

Hi Ice,

The dog checked as described by Jo is my parents and I wrote the Email.
(really didn't mean to scare you Jo with this procedure but I think you know why we did this know ;) )

The dog doesn't have to have an anasthetic. Just a sedation.
They can opt for an anasthetic if the dogw is very restless but this is not first choice.

There are X-rays taken in 3 different positions (I'm a very curious girl so I had the vet take me thtough the whole
procedure plus I was with the dog the whole procedure cause I want to see what is being done)

Like I told Jo I can ask the vet if he is willing to provide more info and som examples if there is enough intrest in this procedure.
I don't know if he is willing to do this but he's a great guy and I can allways ask right ;)

I'm not on the forum that much anymore (work is getting in the way :( ) But Jo has my Email address and I will check the forum later on
to see if you want me to follow up on this

If you do follow up on it I'd love to hear about it but don't want you to go to any trouble :)

I will follow up on this with our vet.
Don't know if he is willing to provide me with all the details but I there's no harm in trying right ;)
No trouble...If the info I might get could help an animal that's enough reason to try :)

As far as pro's......if the puppu is HD prone you are able to have this corrected at a very young age preventing the dog having a lot of pain, major surgeries and as owner seeing your dog in pain and spending a lot of money at the vet.

The con's ..this procedure is done at a young age and some people don't like the light sedation the dog will get to get the X-rays done.
Not really a con but some people are hesitant because of this (which I can understand but I personally think the pro's outweight this con)

Ohter thing is that this is a relatively "new" procedure that some people will not accept yet.
For example the old school vets here in Holland are not really open to this procedure.
But it's "normal" for new procedures to take time before they are well accepted.

That's why I would like to provide information about this. I've seen the information, I spoke to the vet, I've seen the presentation (he showed me the presentation he made for a vet-convention) and I was there during the procedure.
But only by getting the information out there people can make up their own minds about this.

Like stated before. I will get in touch with our vet to see if he is willing to share some information that I can than put on the forum

Unfortunately it's the same here in the UK vets take their time accepting new things and due to our traditional ways of it being done and them not accepting it here makes me wonder why, is it because they are too set in their ways or is there something that I should be worried about having my dogs done in this way?

My breed is hitting it quite big in America so of course this way of scoring is done over there and there are a number of people over here wanting to go the same way.  Don't know whether I should worry about this or be happy :d

Being set in your ways is not always a good thing neither is it always bad.
So I can understand that you don't know what is the "right" thing.

I myself have had several run ins with vets and even the university for Animal Veterinary over the way my pets were or had to be treated or had been treated.
(I have to say that this was concerning reptiles and not dogs)
I've been in several situations where these "set in their way" vets or professors did not want to listen to alternatives or just refused to look at evidence that they
were wrong. Let alone admit that they had reached a wrong diagnoses.
And these findings were done together will well respected vets who specialised in reptiles. They just didn't want to know.

I don't want to say that all vets that don't use every new medication or procedure is bad or wrong !! Please don't get me wrong.
Many well know procedures are great and vets are wonderfull.
But just as in human medicine there is a group of people from the "old school" who do not want to accept change.

But I have see through X-rays what the results were of testing at 16 weeks with really bad scores that was operated on and the results of that operation.
And I have seen the X-rays of a pup tested at 16 weeks, really bad scores, the owners not having the operations done because the University said that the results were no good and the procedure no good, and the X-rays of the same dog 2 years later. With the dogs hips filled with pinns and screws after his pelvic bone had to be broken.
And the owners had have 2 years of seeing their dog in pain ending up with major surgery for the dog and owners paying a lot of money.
Just because the University and their own vet stated that the procedure was wrong.

I was with the pup during the procedure of the X-rays and was talked through it by the vet (specialist) so I know for a fact that it's not hard on the pup.

This is why I asked our vet via Email is he is willing to provide some more information concerning PennHip.
And if he is is willing to send this to me so I can send it to people that are interested.

Reading and learning about what is available is always a good thing. It's up to you after reading the info if you agree or think it's a good thing or not.

Hi,

Well I've been in contact with our vet and he is willing to answer any questions there might be.
If you have any questions concerning this please let me know so that I can forward these and talk to him about this.

Please check the site http://www.pennhip.org/

Here you can see X-ray examples.

If you would like to have more infor about the surgery that is used here in case a dog turns out to be HD probe please let me know.

As soon as I have some questions I will talk to the vet again so pass your questions to me via forum or messages.

Wendy