Help,
I have posted before that we were going to adopt my sisters Dobe and the problems that she'd had with it. It is only a week, but she knows us, so the settleing in has been good. She is good in the house and allows friends in etc. She is better with our JRT than she was and will obey basic commands.
BUT....her aggresion when outside the home is mind blowing. She is ready and willing to have a go at anyone or anything that she sees, man or beast. She has bitten and attempted and would again if she did not wear the basket muzzle I have just bought. people stare and tut like it's our fault. We appologise, but they understandably say in discust, "That's a problem, get rid of it!" I think it is a fear aggression, although when out she wants to go. My husband who used to be a stockman, says that in his experience of animals she's a biter and we won't be able to do anything with her. he also thinks he might be able to re-home her with a haulage firm as a yard dog, where he says she'd be happier. After a week of spending all my time with her I think he could be right.  I don't want to give up if there's a chance, as that is why we took her in the first place, to give her a chance. Should we employ a behaivourist? Is there an answer. Are there any cases like this where it was trained out successfully or is there always that time when.........At the moment, I'm thinking my sister and husband are right.

Hi Viv,

I've only quickly read through your previous posts to get an idea about what info and advice have been exchanged to date.  I see that she is only 7 months old - that is still VERY young :(   She is only a puppy and you've described her as being a nervous one at that.   You've taken her on for a week so far, right?  and she has already been in an environment that seems to have put her under added pressure before her change of home?   Taking all this into account, obviously you need help and I'd say that you definitely need a behaviourist to assess this dog (you will need a vet's refrral to a reputable one) and while awaiting an appointment, why not contact the Breed Club and see if they can put you in touch with someone local to you who owns the breed and can help give you advice specific to this youngster's problems.  Please, PLEASE, don't under any circumstances let this poor animal go to be a "yard dog"   Seek professional advice for your own sake as much as this puppy's.
Good luck, Teri 

If she's scared, then it's highly likely it will take several months, if not possibly years for her to learn that there are good things out there.  An experienced behaviourist (hopefully recommended by your vet and a member of the UKRCB or APBC) should be able to teach you mangement stratagies and training techniques to enable your new baby to get the most out of life in the future.  Now others may shoot me down in flames, but is there any possibility that you can give her the excercise she needs at home (training sessions, ball retrieval, maybe small scale agility appropriate for her age) so she can come to terms with the new things she has to deal with at home, without having to deal with outside as well?

What do you mean by a yard dog? If you mean like a security/guard dog then she would not make a good one at all. Those dogs are highly trained and have to be insured and no insurance company would touch an untrained, aggressive dog. Fear aggression is also unpredictable so that would make her highly dangerous as a guard dog. Dobes are actually quite big babies and usually need back up from a handler or another dog to be effective, how often do you see Dobes as guard dogs working alone, they are normally in pairs. I apologise if that is not what you meant by a 'yard dog'. :-)

I agree with the others and suggest you get help from a behaviourist. Most breeds can be rescued from fear aggression, with exceptions such as some Border Collies who have retained such instinctive behaviour traits. I certainly wouldn't listen to your husband, I would love to know what his 'experience of animals' is that makes him think she would make a good yard dog!

Good luck with her, please don't just give up, if you genuinely think you can't cope, contact Dobe rescue to see if they can find her an experienced Dobe home. :-) 

Oh Wow!

If you are prepared for the long haul she will make it through with enough dedication and training,i have just managed to turn my bitch around and things are nicely stepping into place its took us a year to get this far but it is relatively easy the training became second nature that i don't even think about it.

Please reconsider the 'yard dog' scenario i would never give up hope, i had a terrible (fear) aggressive bitch who would just go in for the kill but now she will step back and assess the situation.

I won't say its been easy and we have had our share of setbacks and she will never be 100% but given the right surroundings/situations she is excellent. Its a case of getting to know your dog and what makes them tick and working on that.

Good luck.

Hi,

Yes She has a big garden, we do play ball etc and she does play JRT try catch me.
Yard dog? Well he means a workshop,hauliers or farm yard dog not an empty yard shut behind elec fencing. But I can see what you are thinking. He knows of a few of these dogs through his job and he says they love their life. A bed at the back of a workshop with the men all day. And don't forget we would not just send her anywhere and hubby would know the person and the yard. we went to see someone today who had a Lab in his and it had just died of old age. His yard was his garden and the dog played with the kids, so he didn't want Daisy, because of the kids friends coming around,unfortunatley.
As for the aggression problem. My sister has tried dealing with it and has even been to the Dobe rescue, that's why we took her in only as it was the last chance, we were due to buy our own puppy the same week but couldn't.
I have spoken to a behaivourist today and she is willing to assess, but it does not sound good at all. Socialisation and interaction that's what should of happened long before things got this far. My sister understood none of this and thought a big house with plenty of grounds and an occational walk up the downs or along the beach, that she'd be fine.
Daisy is lovley. She's proven to us be sweet if she loves you and biddible in the home, funny and a real character but unpredictable when out in the rest of the world with dogs and people she doesn't know.
It sounds awful I know, but what happens to her if we do the behavourist thing, we think it has worked and 2 years down the road, she goes for someone, what then?

Hi spirtualist you're being abit negative really and not giving the dog a chance dont get me wrong i can see why you are worried but if your behavourist says there's no chance then i'd get a second view, she's very much a baby and dogs can be turned around if you try to understand them abit more and i feel fairly confident that with a good behavourist your dog will turn out okay.  They will be able to tell you why she is behaving like that and as Digger said you could play games with her in the back and build a really good bond with her.  There's a book called the dog whisper by Jan Fennel and i believe it may give you an insight in to your dog.

Warm regards Susan

I recommend you go here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/11341

Join up and post your story.  This is a doberman forum full to bursting with experienced, very knowledgable people who may be able to offer some advice to you.  Obviously you need to seek out an experienced behaviourist as well, of course, but the people at this forum should be able to help in the meantime.

One question - how do you react when she gets aggressive?  It's important that you don't send the wrong message; you need to stay calm, and not give her any attention for her behaviour - unless it's good.  Obviously if she needs restraining to prevent a bite, you must do it, that goes without saying - but if you become very tense around potentially aggressive situations in her eyes, she will pick up on it and become more tense herself.

I have a copy of the Dog Listener by Jan Fennel if you want it - personally I didn't like it, but I'm not a fan of dominance theory at all so that's kind of a given.  That's just my opinion, you're welcome to it if you want it.  I would also recommend The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson - she is in my opinion an excellent authority on dog behaviour without being bogged down by pack theory, there is a section on biting and bite thresholds (i.e. the amount and type of stimulus needed before a dog will bite) that may help.

In the meantime, please, please be patient - you've only had her a week, this is a period of dramatic change for her.  Personally I'd try and avoid stressful situations for now - walk her in quiet, out of the way places if you can.  It may take a long time to get her to an acceptable level, but I think it can be done - she certainly deserves the chance after her start in life.  Good luck!

Hi Nikita,
We have Di Williamson coming over on the 9th, a vets apointment next week and a blood test too. I am training in the front garden and play in the back. She is doing very well, enjoying the extra attention and the fun times with our JRT and is a little star so far. So no more walks out yet, but we are managing. I have mentioned clicker training as she responds well to sound and reward and Di will show me if she thinks Daisy is redemable. I am intrested in the books you mentioned, did you want to sell them? If you do, can you mail me? I am also considering the click to calm book(can't remember the authors name).
Thanks for the info, it has been invaluable to my keeping my sanity and Daisy with us. There is a lot of hard work ahead and the whole family will be here on Thursday to meet Di as we all want to have a happy and safe Daisy.
Viv

Yes I know it sounds like I am, but perhaps I'm being realistic? My sister had her in a tight muzzle before, but she couldn't even breath in it, let alone run. Now we have put her in a basket and now she thinks she can bite, even though she can't. Today, we went on land where there shouldn't of been any walkers and she charged at a man and woman, barging the mans thigh, trying to bite, then turned and tried again from the back, nearly knocking him off his feet. When you have seen someone covered in slime where she has not just tried to nip but have a real good go, it's frightening to say the least and more so for him. I think we should of turned around and ran back, then she perhaps would of followed us, don't know for sure though. If she can't run free...and walkers arn't safe, perhaps we're not the people to have her? She meant it today, there were no 1/2 measures.
I will have a look at the book, I have heard of it. What do I do for walks now though and how does she burn off all that energy she has?
I have just mailed the Midland Dobe Club for a behavourist.
I appologise for the spelling as my fingers are flying.
I am going to go out with her now for 30 mins. Haltie. muzzle and chain, but I'll be back

How would you feel if you were tightly muzzled when out and about????  I'd hazzard a guess that before long simply *being* out and about would have your stress levels sky high........  Your job now is to teach her slowly a) that you do not resort to those sorts of tactics (I draw a comparison between this sort of treatment and strapping somebody whose scared of spiders into a chair and allowing them to crawl all over them :( )  then, b) that doing the right thing is fun, and you will reward her with things she likes for behaving appropriatly.  I do not believe there is a dominance issue going on here - she may have been treated incorrectly for the reasons behind her behaviour, and this has made her worse, but consistency is the key - some authors (such as Ms. Fennel, for whom I do not have a lot of time for) present this as some magical new way of dealing with dogs - but really it is simply good management and teaching the dog what is an is not acceptable, and this is best acheived by being consistent and not giving the dog the opportunity to get it wrong, by using your human brain to be one step ahead of your dog all the time.

You cant just let a fear aggressive bitch go running upto people you will have to go back to basics, go to a quiet place and train her to do basic commands THEN slowly introduce her to different things.

Do NOT worry if she is muzzled she can't do any harm you have to be blaise' about this you are sending her negative signals! You have to concentrate on bringing her focus back to you thats the key, and don't let her of lead until you have some sort of understanding.

It is relatively easy but very much long term and commitment is needed or you will fail.

Reiterating what digger said this is DEFINITELY NOT dominance she is frightened and its her natural response to fight, to get in there 1st as it were its upto you to show her theres nothing to be frightened of.

As what you've said. I don't think this is dominance at all and yes she needs taking back to basics. She is a happy lively dog and the muzzle makes her depressed, but how do you socialise or introduce her without risk?

The muzzle doesnt make her depressed she just doesnt like it thats all and she will live with that like mine have (It wont be forever)

Start off small, take her to a field for a couple of weeks and work on basic commands then take her out on an evening (i find best) where there are few people but enough to socialise with, stay a safe distance she is comfortable with (across the rd in our case) then its a gradual process of reducing the distance over the forthcoming weeks/months.

If she is not at all happy at any point remove her from the surroundings and try another day, don't ever force her into a situation she can't handle or you will take 2 steps back. (learn to read her body language)
Sit on benches and watch the world go by :D and constantly reward her for not paying attention to anything but yourself.

It will bring little rewards at 1st but in the long run its very rewarding.

mygirl,
That sounds more possible and achievable, perhaps I shouldn't give up yet. I'm glad you said the muzzle has to be worn, I was starting to think that I was the baddie in all this? Daisy is a fantastic girl in every way and both hubby and I would be gutted if we had to throw in the towel just yet.
Did you have the same probs with your Dobes and did you get it right in the end, or is there always a risk? But I guess there is always a risk with any dog. It's just that Dobes are so powerfull and the red mist so thick and fast sometimes. We are going to road walk her with muzzle from now on and no running free apart from at home. There is Dog Ob on Friday night and we will give it more time. A bit of a gamble though as she might always have problems and it would be harder on us and her after time. But safety is the word for now, perhaps if she improves with patience she will become braver and so will we?

Hey i own great danes here can you imagine the stares and remarks i get when one of mine is in a muzzle? You gotta get hard to it girl :D

It took me more time understanding my bitch than it did trying to correct her issues, i had to make her understand that I WAS THE PROTECTOR and not her, you are at a better advantage than i was as your dobe is still very young and impressionable, you have to get in there NOW and do the training and you have to be consistent, you will have setbacks but get back on in there and try again another day.

Get some stooge dogs in on the act like neighbours old fido that is no threat whatsoever to them and walk on opposite sides of the road, reward her for looking away from the stooge! It works believe you me it just takes time and patience.

Good luck.

Should add in my case it wasnt making my girl braver it was making her learn to have confidence in me!
Why should she be frightened? I was going to protect her if need be i just had to learn to tell her this and that there was nothing to be worried about.

Go to a training class even if its just to sit outside and watch the comings and goings its a start.

Very occasionally it just doesn't work.  I ahve a freind with a Dobe bitch with this problem of fear aggression when on lead outside the home. 

Her owners are very expereinced owners of the breed and they did all the right things during baby puppyhood.  It seemed to start around puberty, so they had her spayed after her second season, but it made no diffeence.

She is like Jekyll and Hyde.  At home seh is lovely and calm and freindly to those she knows and complete strangers that visit.

When on the lead because she could not engage the flight insticnt when soemthing frightened heer she uses fight and will lunge at other dogs (including mine that she used to go for walks with), she progressed onto lunging at people that appeared unexpectedly (usually someone coming around a corner).

In the end my freind just made sure that she woudl be safe to take out and she goes out in a muzzle and a head collar as she is very unpredictable.  Her owner can take her in the off licence etc and she will be good as gold, but then suddenly spook and try to lunge at someone she thinks is suspicious.  She tends to get taken out at night where it isn't too crowded and she gets enough excersise.  it is a shame, but she is a lovely happy bitch at home and great with the baby.  Their other do a male is never walked with her so has not learnt her bad habits.

It isn't ideal but the public are safe, the bitch is happy and loved.

What brainless is saying about his friends Dobe, sounds just like Daisy' which is worrying. I must of been mad to take her on and I could never trust her as she's so unpredictable. It has only been a week and I'm going to call my sister, she will have to take her back and then they can decide what they want to do about her. What has happenedto Daisy to make her like this, I don't know but I guessing that she was older when Kathy bought her. They didn't socialise her at all. When she wouldn't walk on the lead, they picked her up and carried her from the house down and the road(this I know)and when she was to heavy they allowed her to pull them home, all the time reasuring her"all right Daisy, it's all right", therefore compounding her fear of the outside world.
I am being selfish I know, but while I'm worried sick, my sister is on about getting another dog! Luckily, the deal was that we would take it at a week at a time and see how we go. The weeks up.

Spiritulist.  what I have outlined is worst case scenario which can still be managed without too much trouble.  Okay it is a little embarrassing when the bitch has a go and barks when she gets a fright whilst on lead, but as she is safely on a muzzle and lead they are safe from any repercussions. 

At home as you have found she is fine as she can control whether she greets people or not (though she is right in there for a fuss from everyone and is good with dogs that have come into the house once over the threshold.

You have the advantage of my freind from the dound of it living in a rural area with probably a larger garden than we have here.  We llive in a Large City on a busy main road.

I am female and I can walk the bitch without a problem (used to be able to on a check chaine before they got the headcollar).

My post was not supposed to discourage you just to point out that the situation could be managed.

The thought of going out clandesdine to avoid trouble, no,no,no. that's OK until 1 time in it's life?
We as a family are chilled around dogs, well all animals really. We have never and I mean never had any problems even with the rescue track Greyhounds we have had. This is something else. It's not like it's eating out of the bin or barking at the next door neighbour, pulling on the lead or not comeing when called. This is nothing like those kinds of problems, this is serious, the others, we wouldn't even give time to. So for me to say that I don't think we can help her, I mean it.
So don't worry Brainless, I'm glad you were honest, it's what I was thinking anyway. What I wonder is? When you read up about Dobes or talk to the breeders, they all say, oh yes lots of walking. Well I must of looked at 20 puppies. So they would all go to homes where the wife would be home all day and be able to walk the dog? Why then do you rarely if never see one being walked. You see loads of JRT, Collies, Lurchers and GS, but I can't remember the last time I saw a Dobe trotting along on a lead through town. Why is that and where are they all?

Hi again Viv,

I can respect the fact that you don't feel personally able to cope or make headway with this pup - it's unfortunate but then she wasn't yours to begin with and so you aren't responsible for her lack of basic socialisation etc.  If you have firmly decided to return her to your sister, please at least do so with the strong recommendation that she contacts the Dobe Club and seeks their assistance either by personal help from a local experienced owner or, probably better still, through their Welfare / Rescue co-ordinators.   If she wants to work with this youngster they can help to advise on breed specific training strategies and of course she should also a.s.a.p. get a veterinary referral to a qualified behaviourist.   If she doesn't want to give this pup another chance, please ask her to contact Dobe Rescue and ask for their help in rehoming her.  At her age there is a high possibility that her problems can be worked through over time if she has an experienced and patient owner who is prepared for being in this for the long haul.   Please keep us posted.  Regards, Teri :)

Well up until my freinds had this particular bitch you would regularly see their four dobermanns out for walks around town, and I still go out with her her baby in pushchair and her male along with my little troupe of grey furballs.

they don't take the bitch out clandestinely but avoid too busy times because they want her to enjoy her walks and she doesn't when there are crowds or liekley to be lots of dogs.  SAo to save the dirty looks and her nerves she goes out when hubby comes home from work when it is quieter on the streets, noisy unpredicatable kids are in bed etc.

The main reason you won't see many walked in busy places is the general publics generally negative atttitude too large dogs makes it unpleasant for dog and owner.  I don't see too many GSD, rotts, Great Danesw etc walked in the shopping precinct where I take my five or 6 at a time.

I could also ask where all the Afghans, Rough collies etc are to be seen as there are huge entries in these breeds at shows but not too many of them to be seen.

*Clap Clap Clap*

Its workable and still enjoyable you have to know your dogs limits.

I agree with other posts - don't let her go to be a yard dog.  What she needs is social rehabilitation training so when you do contact a behaviourist (as you must) please ask them if they offer this service.  It does sound like it is nerve based so she needs help from other dogs and people specifically trained in this type of problem.
To find out more about this look at www.cheyne.homecall.co.uk or www.dog-partnership.co.uk.
Do not let someone convince you that control and management methods (i.e jerking the lead as she lunges and shouting and parading her on lead through a line of dogs) is the answer.  Social rehabilitation should be able to solve the problem if this dog is only 7 months old.

Although I do feel very sorry for what you are going through you say you never see Dobes out walking on a lead. I have just lost my 14 year old Doberman Katie and in all that time she never so much has showed any aggresive tendencies to either other dogs or humans and went out for a walk twice a day although not helping your situation just felt I should add not all Dobes behave this way.

Absolutely Border Man, very true - I know (and have met) quite a few dobes, and own a 2yr old male, and none of them have been at all aggressive.  My boy is always getting comments on how nice and friendly he is, both to people and other dogs - most dobes are like this, well adjusted and friendly.

Spiritulist, I understand how difficult the situation must seem to you - but I'm going to be very honest here, I'd think twice about giving the dog back to your sister, even if she'd send her on to rescue.  I would contact a dobe rescue and take her to them if you really feel you can't cope - chances are she already associates your sister, her family and her home with stress and uncertainty, and I honestly think putting her back there will set her back even more.  JMHO.

I noticed you posted on the message board I suggested - give them a few days to see what they say, they may come up with some little gem that can help!

thanks for the help and suggestion Nikita.
I have just taken her out for a very short walk. We sat in the park and I talked to her, not soppy I might add. I can read her better now and she is dead scared though she puts on a brave face about it. I don't think she wouls go out, but because she is obedient she'll sit for the lead. Stress does set her off, there's no doubt. I'm sur we can de-stress her, after a track greyhound, her stress is no different.
There was a sheet of paper blowing along the road and she didn't like that. We stayed calm and kept walking, she trusts me I think and she did well. I will walk her like this for the week. Short little trips where she can see folk and not be scared. What puzzles me though is how come she was frightened of that guy yesterday. He was just walking along with his girlfriend, towards us but a way off?

What does JOMH mean?

just my honest opinion :)

Although not a cure, giving some rescue remedy or scullcap and valerian tablets may help take the edge off the stress when socialising and help her see that the world is not such a bad place.

Good luck to you! But you know you can't go into this half-hearted you have to give it your all, and be prepared for set backs thats inevitable.

I never ever thought of giving up on my girl, shes the best animal i have ever owned in the home (outside she is not the dog i recognise).

I hope you go through with it and pull it off it pays off tenfold i swear.

Nitexx

To all who have heard me rattle on and feel my stress through the keys on this board, THANKS.
It has given us a lot to think about. We took Daisy to a Bar-B-Q and a gathering of friends this afternoon. We did put on the muzzle as a precaution and I introduced her slowly. She went for a walk on the choke then down their lane, without the muzzle with hubby and was good. When they came back, she rushed to me as she does and kissed and kissed, before hubby dragged her away. A friend who trains gundogs said, "She mad about you, that's for sure" He has given me some advice although he admits he's not familiar with Dobes. He sees it as she's just doing the job she is bred to do, like his pups will pick up sticks and don't know why until he shows them. He has said, I need to show her what her job is, she needs direction and her puppiness and need to please will give her a chance of success. he's also given me some pratical advice and has said it's worth a try. Carry on as we are and be firm but fair. What has Daisy got to lose? We are going to walk the legs off her until she's bored, bored, bored with it. Up and down the same bit of road until she walks well, takes notice of me, does not get distracked and will behave to command. If I can get a handle on the controls, he says, we're halfway there. He does not think she will ever be 100%, but we should know where and when by then.

I will also try the rescue remedy and I did offer it to my sister, but she didn't want to give her drugs.....DOOOOh!

If shes mad about you then you have a little basis to work from, my girl will not work for food but will do alot for praise,  she sounds like she can make it and being so young you have time on your side.

Go to a behaviourst though as the trouble is you will get so much advice its hard to stick to one training method, and you need to have her assessed to cater for her as what works for mine wont automatically work for your bitch.

Good luck again!

Sarahx