Could you tell me please what you mean when you say some Groomers are sheep shearers?  Being a groomer myself for many many years I perhaps at times can be put into this category.
Those of you who state Sheep Shearers have probably never seen some of the states that some breeds come into the parlour in.  The best thing to do is to clip it all off and start again.  I have found that it teaches the owners a lesson (well some anyway) and it puts less stress on the dog to have it all removed at one go and is much quicker.  After all the dog doesnt care what it looks like does it??

I think people are referring to those who automatically clip anything whether or not the breed should be clipped, such as Westies, spaniels etc, rather than taking the time to do it properly ...
:)

Well said guest.  It makes me mad the way certain people on here refer to groomers as sheep shearers as if they are the route of all evil.  It should also be remembered that the vast majority of my clients just want a short hair cut because they dont have to have it done so often so it their choice.  I would dearly love to use the skills I spent a great deal of time learning but unfortunately as you say the only time the majority get groomed is when they come to see me and some are in such a disgusting mess I refuse to put them through the torture of hours of grooming only for their owners to return them in the same state months later.  I agree there are bad dog groomers the same as there are bad hairdressers.

In response to JG the trouble is that most dont want it dont 'properly' because it involves being done more frequently and some effort on their part.

How I agree with you thomas-the-spot.  I also learnt my trade a long time ago (cost me rather alot too) I wish I was able to use it more frequently but it makes more sense to clip dogs off when they are in such a state.  The looks on owners faces when they see the dog completely clipped off says it all but it doesnt stop them from bringing the dog back in the same state the next time, despite me saying that more frequent visits and I wouldnt have to clip all off. 
I think sometimes the dogs havent been touched since the last time I groomed them.
JG....Yes in an ideal world we would all like to see breeds groomed as they should be.....but not all dogs owners want them done like that and after all "the customer is always right" and they are employing me to do the job for them as they want it done.

Sorry but I may get shot down in flames for saying this!! Many pet owners see these dogs that are clipped right down and think it's the norm. so take their dogs to be done like that.  i've seen a number of Pomeranian's with the weirdest clip ever but it must be a style done in the Devon area.  They leave the head on with a ruff around the neck clip the rest of the body off and leave a long tail, agggghhhhh. 

I'm sorry but if people want a certain breed then they shoiuld have it how it is supposed to be, it's not that hard, a few minutes brushing every day and taken regularly to be trimmed, not clipped, in the style the breed should be.  It's amazing how quite often it's the people who are at home all day who seem to have the dogs the most untidy.

I know unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world but it does make me wonder why they ever even purchased a long coated breed.  I remember spending 3 days grooming a Newfoundland a number of years ago.

I would guess the poms are clipped like that because their body coat is so badly matted it is the only thing that can be done.  Yes, people shouldnt have long haired breeds if they cant cope with it but this should have been pointed out to them when they purchased the puppy from the breeder.
As the original poster said "the dogs dont care what they look like" and I have to agree with that, so long as the dog is free from all that clogged up mess I would much rather continue clipping than putting the dog through hours and hours of stress in a strange place with someone they dont know.

>I agree there are bad dog groomers the same as there are bad hairdressers.

And these are the ones that are referred to as 'sheep shearers'.
:)

Hi Guest.  I was taught by the grooming school where I trained (and then worked) some 20 years ago, that a sheep shearer someone who continually clips off a long haired dog.  I was trained to trim to the breed standard, sometimes a little shorter if the dog lives in the country, is an old dog or has aged owners. 
If a dog comes for its first appointment matted, the owner is shown the state of the coat (I always have a comb in my pocket;)) and I explain how much of the coat I can save depends on my skill and the dog's tolerance.  Matts will always be clipped off from sensitive areas that don't show.  If the dog has been neglected and is now felted, I will explain to the owner that the kindest thing to do is to remove the coat, which I will do only once.  I will expect the dog to come for a regular 8 week appointment and for no extra charge, I will teach the owner what is required to keep their dog in good condition.  If the owner is happy with that, then WE, as a team, will keep their dog looking like a reasonable representative of their chosen breed.  All my dogs come in on a regular 8 week appointment.  In nearly 20 years of having my own parlour. I have only had 2 owners who insisted on a once a year clip off, which I would not do - that's not my type of work.  There are plenty of sheep shearers around who will do that and make a good living too because little skill is involved and it's a quick job.
I've had dogs travel many miles (200!!) to have their Westie trimmed like a Westie instead of a shaved body and a hovercraft of a skirt!!  They'd been happy with that for years, because that's what their groomer did and so that's what they thought their dog should look like because they trusted their groomer - until they'd seen a REAL Westie!!
I would disgree with you that the dog doesn't care what it looks like.  On the occasions when I have clipped a dog off, I have warned the owners not to laugh - which is their normal reaction - as I've seen the eyes of dogs when their owners have laughed at them! :(
But Hey, everyone must do and have what they are happy with (that's the politically correct thing to say these days, isn't it?) because there are enough dogs, trained groomers, sheep shearers, expensive and cheap to suit the world and his wife!! :)

I wonder how many of todays groomers have been shown how to properly hand strip terriers, I would think not many.  Yes it's time consuming and OK most of the people who go to groomers are the pet market, but shouldn't we be showing people how things should be properly done? 

I AM NOT GETTING AT ANYONE AND DON'T WANT TO UPSET GROOMERS BUT I DO FEEL THAT WITH MANY, NOT ALL, THE QUICK AND EASY OPTION IS TAKEN. 

Clipping many of the breeds which shouldn't be clipped actually makes the coats harder to cope with. 

Maybe it's time we changed the way things were done and show people how the breeds should be.  I do a number of people's Pomeranian's who are not in the best conditions, but I trim their dogs short but still in the style that they should be. I would never, ever clip their coat. 

Val what a great job you do.  Where I was trained I have to say I wasn't impressed with the way that they did the dogs.  It was a quick in and out, the dogs looked nothing like they should and were treated not brilliantly.  Yes this was 13 years ago and hopefully things have changed since then.

I wonder how many of todays groomers have been shown how to properly hand strip terriers
Many of my local groomers tell the owners it hurts because it's quicker to clip!!  Soft coats that won't strip can still be trimmed to look natural and not clipped back to the skin!
Clipping many of the breeds which shouldn't be clipped actually makes the coats harder to cope with
Too right!! Cavaliers lose all their colour.  Cockers get woolly.  Westie coats get softer.  They can be corrected but golly it takes a long time, sometimes many months.
I do a number of people's Pomeranian's who are not in the best conditions, but I trim their dogs short but still in the style that they should be. I would never, ever clip their coat
I've had a couple of badly matted Poms over the years but there was absolutely no need to clip either.  Both owners were trained how to groom their dogs (shame the breeder hadn't done that:() and were happy to come in every 8 weeks for an MOT to keep the dog comfortable.
Where I was trained I have to say I wasn't impressed with the way that they did the dogs
I did a lot of research but still feel lucky that I chose the right place to train.  I listened to what I was told and it worked to build a successful, busy parlour with a good reputation!

<Cavaliers lose all their colour> they don't just lose colour they go like cotton wool if they are clipped frequently, which means yep they have to go back tio the groomer to groom as the coat is virtually impossible to be done by the owner

You've noticed that too MM ???????:(
Again, no reason why even a poor Cavalier coat can't be trimmed to look natural and not shaved!  Won't be suitable for the showring but will be a tidy coat, manageable for the owner and more like it should.
Applies to many breeds that shouldn't be clipped.  Whilst you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ears, you can make the best out of what you have.

They only need their slippers scissoring & maybe ears if they are very long Thinning scissors are far better than clippers, a friend of mine is a pro groomer & we developed a pet trim for her to use on cavaliers using thinning scissors & it doesn't damage the hair roots like clipping does

That is just what happened to my freinds Golden Retriever and it took nearly two years for the coat to get it's proper texture and proper proortion of undercoat to top coat length and distribution. 

Her owner had never wanted her clipped, she had asked the groomer to strip her out, by which she meant thin her coat, not clip it off.  The dog looked very upset about loosign it's coat and didgnity and hid under the table whenever anyone laughed, which sadly they all did as her full coat was left on her head and hocks.

When I was a child my mother's side of the family always had Scotties and Greyhounds and they were clipped at the local "parlour" (just the Scotties :P ) - all came out looking very strange.

I agree, the poor little dogs genuinely looked embarassed - I know that's a controversial notion of adding an emotion or reasoning to a dog that is regarded by some as a complete No-No but it's easy to say right up until you see a dog react so miserably and try and hide away after being practically scalped - and they definitely reacted badly to being laughed at :(

Teri 

>Cavaliers lose all their colour.

So do Wire-haired fox terriers, Airedales, Lakelands, Welsh terriers - even black Scotties become rusty-looking.

What you also have to bear in mind is the cost.

A handstripped airedale done properley would take a good few hours, and many owners are not willing to pay the cost, and are always "too busy" to bring the dogs as regularly as they should be done.

I get sick to death with the "We want him short cos he feels the heat". Regardless of explaing to the owner that this will not help, they look at you blankly. If you then dont do it they will just take him to somebody who will skin them with a 8 1/2 all over.

There are a lot of things groomers have to do that they dont particularly like doing but we all have to earn our money and it is after all a business and the customer is always right!

Hannah
(who thankfuly doesn't groom anything she doesn't want to any more!)

What you also have to bear in mind is the cost.  A handstripped airedale done properley would take a good few hours,
Not if you roll the coat every 8 weeks.  No more than an hour because you only clip the head area, chalk the rest and don't bath and dry.
and many owners are not willing to pay the cost, and are always "too busy" to bring the dogs as regularly as they should be done.
If they're not willing to come every 8 weeks, then I don't do them Hanstrips!!  Those are the 2nd class owners that the other groomers pick up, and they're welcome to them!

I get sick to death with the "We want him short cos he feels the heat". Regardless of explaing to the owner that this will not help, they look at you blankly. If you then dont do it they will just take him to somebody who will skin them with a 8 1/2 all over.
Yep, that's how it happens.  That's how good groomers get the good dogs and the sheep shearers get the others!

There are a lot of things groomers have to do that they dont particularly like doing
Yes.  I don't particularly like doing anal glands but it's part of the job! :(  But I lurve descaling teeth!!:)
but we all have to earn our money and it is after all a business and the customer is always right!
That's interesting.  I was taught that grooming is one of the businesses where the customer ISN'T always right!  It's up to the groomer to teach the client!

Hannah
(who thankfuly doesn't groom anything she doesn't want to any more!)
Brilliant Hanstrips!  Me too.  Good when you only have nice dogs and responsible owners and you feel a warm glow of pride when the correctly trimmed dog walks away from your parlour, isn't it??:)

The pomeranian clip you are all talking about is the lion clip as called in the US. I think it can look great if done properly and the dog can be a lot cooler and happier too. If it's a pet let them do it. I breed and show poms and i am a groomer and have come accross some terrible states but a lot of it is simply the owners don't know how to look after there dogs coat because no one has told them how to and what brushes to use.
Pommania

A Pomeranian should never be clipped like this and definitely not in England, we don't get the weather for it and in my eyes they look awful.

I have  been in Pomeranian's for over 20 years and have never ever had the need to do this.  I have people who have bought dogs off me which I trim right down but still in the trim that they should be but much shorter.  Never clipped always scissored.

A Pom. doesn't take much work.  I do still wonder why people buy coated breeds if they are not willing to put the work in.

Couldnt agree more with why do people buy long haired dogs and have them stripped but I have had people asking to clip long haired chihauhas because they thought the dog was hot!  It was in about treble the weight it should have been which was why it was hot.

Well said hanstrips that is exactly the problem and like you I live in a area where there are people who will go elsewhere if they dont get what they want.  The reason I get for people wanting their dogs stripped is they are too hot and no amount of persauding will stop them wanting  it done.  They also do not want to pay out the extra for handstripping and very few dogs actually have a good enough coat to have it done.  I just cut it short now if they want it natural but the top and bottom of it is money and time.  I have regulars who come every few weeks but the majority are about every 4-6 months.

It must be nice being like Val and being able to pick and choose unfortunately though I live in the real world where people want their dogs clipped off and those who want real their dogs done properly are few and far between.  If I dont do it they go elsewhere and I know the majority of the groomers in the area feel the same. I think we all have to deal with our client base and the majority of mine are too bone idol to touch their dog and the only time it gets any grooming is when it comes to me!  Most of my customers inform me their dogs especially the old ones gain a second life after a hairdo whether they be clipped or stripped cant say I have ever spoken to anyone who has said that their dog is bothered about their hairdo!

Hi thomas-the-spot :)  I'm not lucky being able to pick and choose.  I was taught when I was training that what you do is what you get more of, and it's true.
The first time you clip off a matted Lhasa/Cocker/Westie or whatever, without passing on the wisdom of your knowledge that a well groomed coat insulates against the heat in the same way that it insulates against the cold, then the owner tells her friend "Go to the Clip Off groomer, and she'll do it for a tenner!" and you'll get her friend with the same, sad story of how they can't groom the dog!! :(
If, on the other hand, you say as I do, "Sorry but that's not my type of work.  I don't believe that it's fair on the dog or me.  I'll clip it off this time because it's in such a neglected state, but if you groom your dog like this (and demonstrate) then we between us we can keep him in a trim that is recognisable for his breed, which is, of course, why you brought him :) :) " then they will tell their friends, who admire their dog, who looks like he should, and you'll get more of those! 
And the people who want their dogs trimmed to the breed standard will travel miles because most untrained groomers just clip off or leave flag tails on Westies etc, because it's quick and easy and they wouldn't know what a breed standard is anyway!!
Give it a try and in 12 months you'll transform your business and be earning more than you are clipping off!  AND you won't be spending as much on resharpening your scissors and blades AND your joints in your arm will be better!!  AND you'll have a smile on your face each time a beautifully trimmed dog walks away from your parlour. :) :) :)

Here, here Val :)

I have people travelling 40+ miles to me because they want their dog to look like the breed it is.  I also groom terriers who do not have the correct coat and are unstrippable, but a Coat King gets the same effect quite quickly and keeps the coat in far better condition than clipping.  Admittedly it takes longer than clipping but used properly it gives a much better finish. 
I also find that the owners of the dogs I groom are more willing to groom their dogs properly, they are so proud of their dogs that they want to keep them looking that way.

I'm one of those dispicable owners who gets their dogs clipped I have 4 yorkies,when i got my first one i vowed to keep her in show coat ,this attitude quickly changed as she likes to do what normal dogs do,and that is swimming,rolling in dirt and poop and rough housing with her doggy friends,i kept up her coat for 8 long miserable months,i was having to bathe her constantly,she was snagging up everywhere,in the end she hated the grooming table,which is the last thing one needs with a longhaired dog! I tried with the next 2 dogs,and didnt even bother growing my fourth ones coat out.

I take them to the groomers every 8 weeks and i look after their coats inbetween,personally their comfort comes before their looks, i always tell the groomer if they find a snag(which does not happen often) please not to bother trying to comb it out and cause my dogs pain,i just tell her to snip it off,i'm not bothered if they come back a little uneven,which hasnt really happened yet.The other reason i get them clipped is because scissoring takes much longer and i prefer them to be in and out of the groomers as quickly as possible,like i said their comfort comes before all else :) .

I was at crufts this year,while i was waiting for a friend i overheard an exhibitor speaking to a visitor about her dogs long,silky coats,i cannot remember what breed it was,but what the breeder said really upset me,she said her dogs arent allowed on grass,they are not encouraged to play together,they had all their carpets ripped up and put floorboards in,their coat is permantly oiled and put up at home,they wernt allowed to drink out of normal water bowls,they were only fed dry food as moist food stains their beards,it just went on and on and on,i moved away in the end,because i was so close to saying something to her!! I just cant see how these dogs could possibly be happy??

Alot of people like the looks of a certain dog,but they also see the dog underneath the coat and do not feel the need to keep the dog in full coat,personally i think they look cute with long or short hair,they may also choose their particular breed because of it's personality etc. etc.

One of my neighbours has a chow,this dog was always huffing and puffing every single summer,he had an immense coat,last summer the owners got him clipped down,yes he did look a touch odd,but you would think this was a different dog,he was more energetic,springier and played with the other dogs for more than 1 minute without over heating.Sure they did ruin the look of this majestic dog but he was so much happier for it,the owners put his comfort before his 'look' and it worked out for the best for the dog.

As i said my dogs comfort and happiness comes before looks,and i will not subject them to longer hours in the grooming salon than is absolutely necessary.

I thought you may like to hear the other side of the coin,and my own reasons for getting my dogs clipped ;)

Golly tippie, I don't think that anyone has called owners who choose to clip their Yorkies dispicable:(
But I can assure you that a trained groomer can groom out a full coated Yorkie quicker than clipping it, and because they would know what they're doing, then the dog would find it a pleasurable experience, because knots in sensitive areas would be clipped out and grooming out knots from a correct silky coat is quick and very easy.  Visiting the groomer should be like us going to the hairdressers and coming home feeling better than we went!
Of course Yorkies who have been bred with incorrect double or woolly coat aren't so easy to keep in good condition and it's often better to scissor them into a puppy trim.  Nobody can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
But as I've said before, there are enough dogs and groomers, both in a variety of qualities, to supply the needs of everyone concerned.  So long as you and your dogs are happy, then that's all that matters. :)

I didn't say it either but my long coated breeds also enjoy rolling in the mud, going on the beach playing in sand etc.

I don't see why people can't scissor the dogs into a neat easily looked after cut rather than clipping it all off and making the dog look nothing like the breed it's supposed to be. 

I would have thought that people when they first see a breed go for it because of the natural way that it looks so I don't quite understand why they are then all shaved off.  This is just my opinion and I'm not getting at anyone, each to their own.

I actually have a breed that looks scruffy and I love them and another of my pet hates is when I see my breed brushed and scissored to look like a Poodle when they shouldn't be.  I went into my breed for the way that it looked and because I love their character etc.  If they didn't have the coat that they have don't think that they would of appealed to me.

i know no one said we were dispicable,but's thats how some of the comments make you feel.The question of '"why do people get longhaired dogs only to clip them off' was hopefully answered,well in my situation anyway.

Can someone please explain the reaction of the chow i mentioned? I've always heard that thick coats insulate from the cold and the heat.The cold i can understand,but when i used to see this dog walking around in the heat,well he just looked plain miserable and over heated,i compared it to us us walking around in the middle of summer with a few thick wooly jumpers on,he did have the correct chow coat aswell,but as soon as it was clipped off,it honestly brought tears to your eyes to see this dog with so much more spark and energy,the owner felt terrible for not doing it sooner!

It could be that the same result would be seen if he'd had his loose undercoat thoroughly combed out! ;) As the 'Saturday girl' I was given that task years ago at the pet shop/groomers I worked at. It took me 5 hours with brush and comb, and got bagsful of dead hair from him. But at the end he still looked like a chow!

Don't forget, in China the summers are generally hotter than ours, so they have that thick coat for a reason.
:)

Ditto JG if a chow casts all the under coat comes out & the outer coat remains to protect from the heat by trapping layers of air so the skin does not heat up

5 Hours??  Poor chow!!. 

Don't worry! He was asleep most of the time - lazy so-and-so! :D

Hi tippie.  If you think about people who live in really hot countries, they don't take all their clothes off (only mad dogs and English men go out in the mid day sun! ;) ) they wear lots of layers of thin clothing - to insulate against the heat and keep cooler.  Also on a very rare English hot day, you'll find that smooth coated dogs, like labradors, dalmatians etc feel the heat just as much as a well groomed coated dog, and us too!  We all need a cool place to sit if the temperature rises to 20C+.

I suspect but obviously haven't seen it, that the Chow, having a thick double coat, could well not have been groomed right down to the skin, then the undercoat would be like having a woolly vest next to his skin, which would certainly make him suffer in hot weather.  I don't wear a vest in the summer either. :)  But proper grooming would have similar benefits to the dog as clipping him off, and he could keep the dignity of looking like a Chow.  It's another example of where a knowledgeable groomer could help educate the owner.

Hey JG & MM - you two type quicker than me!!!:(

Grooming this chow involved starting at a back foot, parting his coat to see the skin, then combing out all the loose hair from that part (several strokes of the comb). Then I had to move up the leg, about half an inch at a time, combing every section and ensuring I'd been right down to the skin until after several hours I ended up at his head. It's a long, tiring job, but the owner was delighted to have a well-groomed dog.
:)

Well done JG.  And once you had done that, with maybe 15 minutes 'proper' grooming like you had done (rather than just waving the brush around!) just twice a week, the Chow would always look like a Chow and be comfortable too.

I remember Percy Whittaker telling me about a chow Champion whose owner had been ill & in hospital following a massive stroke & the dog had been in kennels for months, when he & the Egertons took him from the kennels it took them & their kennel people three days to groom him right out The boarding kennels had just been top grooming him as they had no idea how to do a chow, the poor dog looked like a walking cube of dog hair before grooming & afterwards he had just his top coat three months later he went BIS at a club show from veteran & happily his devoted owner who was then  out of hospital never knew the mess the dog had been in

Percy was one of the best groomers of Chows he made it look so very very easy, which it is if done often & right of course

Our GSD is coating right now & daily grooming gets a carry bag full out & more ! I don't think anyone would ever shave a GSD though. My beardies where a lot easy to groom out even though they did have the correct very thick undercoat sadly lacking in most beardies today, yet people still have them clipped out

I had the same expereinbce with a relatrives Samoyed.  He actually had his undercoat as solid fleece through which hsi new coat had grown.

He was so bad that I took a pair of scissors and cut the whole coat to about 2 inches and then bought a matt splitter and spent a week dematting and lifing out the dead coat.  wehn I finished he actually ahd about 4 inchjes of coat though it wasn't very even. 

I bought a pair of thinning scissors and detangling spray for the owners and showed them how to thin out the featherings when tyey grew back, and also to remove much of the hair in armpits, groin and around his private parts but leaving the sides so that he looked full coated.

He had complained that the dog smelt even after bathing and got dirty.  I proved that once you had the dead coat out that the coat would return to being pretty well self cleaning, and baths should only be given when he would be dried and thoroughly groomed out.

I bathed him after I had butchered his coat (I am not a groomer by any stretch of the imgaination, but he had said he would get him clipped off), I then has him come over for an hour when he cam to pick up his dog and showed him how to comb the dog properly how to use the scissors and suggested he used the detangling spray. 

He now keeps the dog reasojnably presentable, though I get raving if I see loose undercoat hanging out. 

"I don't think anyone would ever shave a GSD though."

I know someone on another forum has done just that, shaved her two long coat gsds to the skin because 'they are too hot and i have to hoover so much, and they get all tangled'.........

Yeah, see how much more tangled they get when the undercoat and top coat are growing through at the same rate..... ever heard of a brush and an undercoat rake luv'???....... (i was NOT laughing at the pictures of her too dogs, bald apart from their heads, feet and tails..)

Em

And, of course, they're now much more likely to get sunburnt - possibly leading to melanoma ....

(And before anyone jumps up and down saying that dogs don't get sunburnt - oh yes they do, depending on their pigmentation.)

taras coat in the last year has really changed, & is getting really matted, (but still shiney & not going curly) anyway its now much motre work than it ever was, & at one point i DID consider clipping her but spent three days brushing instead.

anypones e;lse dogs coat suddenly change at 8 years? i think shes trying to change into a puli!!!!!!

A Coat King could help you as they strip the coat but unlike clipping don't damage the follicle(sp)Maybe she is going though a canine change(yes I know she is spayed )

i have a mattmasta,but its the number of them ,& its never ending, & she hates been brushed :(.
anyway she would look good as a puli! now shes all brused out she has a coat of a puppy BSD (if you can imagine)

ive not had a older dog before,do they go through a "change" like us?

Well bitches coats can change as they get older just like human hair that loses condition etc as we get older & therefore we need to up the treatment & food to compensate. Cavaliers coats can get curly as they get older & my BC & X bitch seemed to get a harder to manage coat(longer as well)as they got older

What about a zoom groom ? using one is more like stroking the dog & it does get dead coat out

she just hates me really,much prefers been with my mum! but mum just grooms the top bit!!!!
glad its not just her though.

my nellie,is going quite curley,its kinda cute!

That is just how my freinds Golden Ret looked like.  Sadly for her the coat on her back wouldn't grow at all for a year other than some wisps!!!  the rest of her coat grew back as one great load of fluff.  I thinned it sown, especially the breedhes and thick fluffy feathers on her legs with thinning scissors twice, and eventually it started coming back more like ehr normal coat and after two years the back had grown in, and she now has almost as nice a flat, but thick coat as she had before.

Oh yes they do MM!!  We had one on this board last year! ;)

LOL maybe I should have written no sane person would clip a GSD especially a longcoat scissor matts etc yes but clip the mind boggles when it regrows

Remember this MM????
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=371861;hlm=and;hl=clip%20gsd#371861

lol must have missed that one :)