Our lab is due to be hip scored shortly.  We had hoped to let her have a litter when she is 2.5 however if her hip scores are bad can this be passed to the puppies?  How much is genetic?  I have been lead to understand that if a bitch has bad hips then you should not breed from her can anybody explain and confirm this? 
thanks

If it wasn't a hereditary problem then no one would score their dogs prior to breeding.  Teh Hip Scoring scheme is one of the BVA/KC schemes for the control of hereditary disease.  Unfortunately the mode of inheritance is complex with hip dysplasia and environmental factors also play a part.  The heredity is thought to be about 35% - 40%.  This is why you can have high scoring animals still produce lo9w scores and low scores producing high, but the likelihood of poor scores being produced is higher in those animals themselves poor.

Since our last discussion on this I've looked up my HD file as I knew I had something interesting about lab's hips somewhere :-)

A UK study in 2002 on 13,382 BVA scored Labs revealed a heritability of 34% from both parents, 41% from sire alone and 30% from dam alone.  So according to this, the sire has quite a bit more influence than the dam.  It also states that the mean score for dogs was significantly higher than bitches but doesn't give the means.  I haven't got the full paper, just the abstract so haven't got all the data for this study.

Julie

edit to add this bias has not been found in any other breed to my knowledge.

That's very interesting! I wonder if oestrogen has any influence on the bones as it does in humans?

Interesting point.  I must try to get the paper to see if any explanation is proposed. Maybe our Lab posters know?

Julie

From the articles written by malcolm willis for two breeds I ahve been involved with it was always foudn that bitches on average scored worse than dogs, and this could be due to the time that they were x-rayed falling too close to a season, with hormones making the joints more lax.

Hip dysplasia in man is most often found in baby girls.

I was reading Malcom Willis' book last night and oestrogen can have an effect on the bones in dogs, when dogs become distressed it can stop them from absorbing calcium from their food.  Also he said in his book that it is better to try and breed hip displaysia out but not ruling out breeding from hip displaysia dogs all together depending on the servernesous of the hip displaysia.  So if you were going to breed you would have to find a stud dog who is compatible with your dog and have very good hips and the chances are that your dog may not produce hip displaysia in the pups, the only thing you could do then is get the pups hip scored at twelve months and if they do show signs of hip displaysia is endorse them.  You would have to be a responsible breeder though. I've heard people on here saying laboradors are exploted so your girl would have to be an exceptional bitch to breed her from and as you are not an experienced breeder i wouldn't really breed from her myself.

Warm regards Susan.

Susan, you can only endorse registrations while you still have the pups in your possession. A breeder can't sell registered pups and endorse the registrations later.
:)

oops - sorry JG - just noticed your post - oh well great minds......

:D

Susan I am extremely interested in your post. Although I am not an "experienced breeder" where is it that one gets the "experience" that you talk about.  I may not be "experienced" but just the fact that I am asking these important questions and gaining as much knowledge as I can before making any decisions should show that I would not undertake the breeding of my lab without a serious amount of consideration and thought, back up and advice.  She certainly would not be "expoited" I will only let her have one litter and I do not intend to sell them or profit in any way from this.  Secondly I would not breed from her until the age of 2.5 and provided her hips, eyes etc are all fine she will be mated with a sire from a reputable and extremely well known organisation who would like her pups.
Hope that clears things up
Best wishes
  

Susan - endorsements can only be put on the pups registration papers when they are in possession of the breeder.  By twelve months they will have gone to their new homes and the breeder will but unable to endorse them.
Most breeders routinely endorse all their puppies when registering them, and include a clause in the contract giving the conditions (ie satisfactory hip scores etc) under which they will life the endorsements.

[deleted]

Well i suppose she would have to endorse them all and wait to see what the outcome was, and then she could release the dogs endorsements which were okay and then carry on from there.

Warm regards Susan.

uh why have i got two replies, strange.

uh why have i got two replies, strange.

Did you hit post and then want to add something else and quickly clicked stop? This happens all the time to me,i'll hit post and then as its loading i remember something else,i click stop and add in my thing,then i find it has already posted before,so one got the edit and one hasnt,i just delete one of them.

Your 2 posts are not exactly the same ;)

Goat, I have just one initial question to ask, what are your reasons for letting her have a litter?

Hi Kayc
I have answered your question above in my response to Susan. 
I should add, however, that I feel that she should be able to have a litter as she would be a wonderful mother, she has a great temperemant and a very good background/pedigree.  It would be a tragic shame for her not to experience motherhood. 

>It would be a tragic shame for her not to experience motherhood. 

Which is why there are so many Badly bred Labradors in rescue (good ones as well I may add)

Goat, please think very carefully about what you are doing, please dont think I am getting at you, I am not.  I would really like you to take plenty of time to think about this.

Who has evaluated your bitch to say that she is of the exceptional quality required for breeding.

As far as I can gather from your posts, not only is this your 1st Lab, but your 1st ever dog and she is only a year old. 

>she will be mated with a sire from a reputable and extremely well known organisation who would like her pups.

What organisation is this, I didnt know any existed?

As for experience, I personally owned and trained Labs for 30 years, it took me 20 of those years to gain all the knowledge I needed to even consider breeding.  You seem to have managed allof this in less than a year!!!

>she has a great temperemant and a very good background/pedigree

this is not a requirement for breeding, this is only the tip of the iceberg.   I have a cracker of a bitch, excellent background and pedigree, but with only three very minor faults, unoticable to the untrained eye, She will never be bred from.  There is no need.  There are many excellent quality Labs out there that make the grade, why add to it uneccessarily.....

Unless she is of exceptional quality, then she is not good enough, just MHO

Sounds like this is a breeding planned for Guide Dogs? They've been advertising their stud dog services in the dog papers........

Marianne

If I remember rightly from the Olden Days ;) it was by no means guaranteed that the Guide Dogs accepted the whole litter. Goat would still need to take responsibility for finding alternative permanent homes for all the 'rejects', as it were, just as any other responsible breeder.
:)

Maybe, but they will only use the best, and all the bitches will be evaulated to determine whether they reach the high standard required.  also Goats bitch is only a year old.  As far as I aware on this scheme, the stud dog owned by the GDFB is used, and the pups are evaluated at 6/7 weeks, if they do not reach the required standard, they will not use them. The owner of the bitch is then left with a litter of pups to sell, without having a waiting list.  Can you imaging suddenly finding yourself with a large litter of 8 weeks old pups and no homes for them to go to. :(

:D  Some of us are just going to have to appoint a spokesperson. I do get there, eventually :P

LOL! :D :D

Yes I could never ever imagine doing it myself. My own pups are 4 weeks old with every single one booked by 2 weeks. I'd have started to panic if I didn't have homes by now -I have a friend who once was left with 4 pups until about 14 weeks and gosh that was a horrible situation.

Marianne

Under the GDB stud dog scheme the bitch requirements state the score must be below breed average to be considered.

I can only endorse all that Kayc has said. We have too many Labs in Rescue brcause little thought has gone into their breeding.

I have to echo all that Kayc says. 

It is not a tragic shame for her to miss the experience of motherhood - she won't know what she's missing.  Not all bitches enjoy motherhood anyway, and there is a risk you could lose her.  Please don't take this the wrong way.  From your posts it is evident that you care and are interested in learning, but from your earlier posts, she is your first dog, bought as a pet, and you have only had her a year.  As others have said there are far too many labradors being bred.

If you still want to become a breeder in the future there is some really good advice here
It will take time to gain the experience, and probably too late to breed your current bitch, but you will be in good company.  I doubt very much if many of the breeders on here bred from the first bitch they owned as a pet.

"It would be a tragic shame for her not to experience motherhood." 

You are there speaking about a dog - animals are not to be humanized. Some women may miss the experience of motherhood but dogs most certainly do not!

Most of the problems, especially behavioural, with domesticated animals are due to our lack of understanding / our compulsive effort to humanize them in fabricating imaginable emotions for them to possess.

you know you are right, my mum said that to me last night when I was discussing this with her.

The scores of puppies from her litter may not be bad, but you can guarantee one thing, the bad scores will come out somnewhere down the line, possibly in grand puppies or great grandpuppies. You can see from other replies, that there are a lot of factors which affect hip scores, but it is not recommended to breed from a bad score.

Wow ok I have read and taken on board all your threads.
Firstly yes she is only a year and this is why I am posting my questions early.  I want to know as much as I can now before I make an informed decision on this matter.  I certainly WOULD NOT consider breeding her until the age of 2.5 as I said earlier.  Why I ask all this now is because as she is due to go to the vet on Tues for her x-ray and hip scores should he suggest that she should be spayed then I am seriously considering agreeing to this.  I don't want to become a professional dog breeder, I just wanted her to have a litter and have discussed this with the Guide Dogs as this is her background.  I did not see any advert offering stud dogs from them and have approached this through their breeding programme.  At the age of 2 they will come and meet her and have a good look at her and check that her hips, elbows, eye scores and so forth are acceptable.  This is why I am posting this now and I fully take on board all your kind posts.  It is unlikely that we will breed her but I want to know as much as I can before making any decision.

Do you mean she is bred from GDB lines?  If her hip score is good I don't see why you should not have further discussions with them and let them assess her for you.  I think you have to accept the possibility that some or even all of the pups will not be accepted by them but I would imagine they would be welcome prospects for ordinary homes.  Of course any homes you found yourself you would be responsible for vetting unless the GDB are happy to take on the role for you.  You would also need to be sure that you could offer ongoing support, advise and rehoming if the puppies ever needed it in their lifetime unless, again, the GDB are prepared to do that for you.  Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Thank you Isabel
That is kind of you.  I must confess that I have learnt a lot on this thread and everybody has been great.  I have a lot to take on board here.  Yes she is bred from GDB lines.  She is hopefully being hip scored on Tues.  Right now I am veering toward having her spayed but I have time to make a decision and will certainly call the GDB again before doing so.
Thank you Val also if you are reading this, I have PM'd you.