Hi All. I hope you can help. I have a litter of CKCS pups(They are spoken for, Admin, so not advertising!). Only two in the litter, a dog and a bitch. They are 15 days old and seem to be thriving, gaining weight very well, eyes opened....BUT they are not able to put their back legs under neath them at all. They both are big puppies especially the bitch, but neither can get to their feet at all. I know that they aren't expected to be up on their feet properly, but I have bred two litters from this bitch before, and they were different to these two. They have very wide chests which seem very flat. I held the bitch puppy tonight and turned her onto her back and she was unable to turn back over when I gently laid her down into the whelping box. I have consulted the BOTB and read about "Swimmers". Do you think I should take them to the Vets ASAP or give them another week or so. I have seen lots of puppies as I used to work in a kennels, but nothing like this. Any advice would be great. Thank you.

hi there, having experienced swimmers in a previous litter a few years ago we rang a lady who has a column in our dogs & got some great advice from her, she told us to lay the puppy in your hand tummy up & gently massage the puppy with downward strokes extending over its 4 paws 1 at a time,  a couple times a day, we did find this helped the 2 puppies who were swimmers went on to thrive as a nornal dog with no further probs, not a lot of help i know but at least its what we did with ours

I'd take them the vet aswell for a check up and let then diagnose them for you. Good luck.

Warm regards Susan.

MY 5 year old girl sometimes lies down flat or sleeps with all 4 legs sprawled out to the sides... I never saw her til she was 8 weeks old.. could she have been a swimmer pup?

Several years ago I had a small litter of only 3 pups and the bitch had loads of milk.  My pups lay on their stomachs just as you describe and didn't start walking until they were 4 weeks old.  They were just too fat!  I laid out a run from the whelping box as usual at 3 weeks, put them on the newspaper and they just lay there like tortoises!  However by 5 weeks they were running around as normal.

Thanks very much for your help all. I took them to the Vet yesterday, and he was quite perplexed. He said he had seen it only once before (in CKCS by coincidence) and that the prognosis was poor.Only a 30% chance of them ever being able to lead normal lives! But.... I contacted a VERY nice lady in the Cavalier world and she said that she had seen it before but that they would be fine by the time they are 8 or 9 weeks old. They are just slow developers! I really hope so, as I was in tears at the Vets at the thought of having the pups P.T.S.

put them on the newspaper and they just lay there like tortoises!

:D :D

Lopear,

Try this link, it looks like it may help you to help the pups and has good info

http://www.cockerspanielinformation.com/puppies/swimmer_puppy/

I had experience of swimmer kittens in one litter, they can survive and actually thrive if not too severely affected :) if given the right help, but I would endorse the pedigrees to ensure they aren't bred from.

Good luck

Wow.  I have PE (pectus excavatum) too!  Not only did I live, but I've never had significant problems.  :D  I just have very, very little endurance, as there is not a lot of room for my heart and lungs in my chest and therefore I don't get enough oxygen if I have to run a distance.

My mother's $#(%!*@ doctor told her not to ingest vitamin D or riboflavin (IIRC) while she was pregnant with me.  Turns out that scenario - basically fetal rickets, caused by lack of proper nutrition in the womb - seems to be rather common among people who have PE.  Might the lack of vD and/or rib. be a cause of "swimmer" pupies as well?  Just a thought.

My friend had a solo pup, he was huge and lazy and like you described. At four weeks old my friend lay down ege cartons (you know the squares that take about 24 eggs) so that when he tried to walk he had something to push against and make his legs stronger. He is 2 now and brilliant, a very handsome dog.

good luck

edited to say egg cartons

Thanks Dill. I had already made up my mind to endorse the pedigrees to prevent breeding.I am starting a Physiotherapy programme for them!! I hope things will improve.

I'll also try the egg cartons Manxpat!

Good luck Lopear i hope the pups are okay.

Warm regards Susan

Let me know how you do.

Good Luck

Your welcome Lopear :)  let me know how it goes :)

LJE - you have some interesting points there!  The advice from the breed society was to edorse the pedigrees 'no offspring to be registered' and to use a different stud cat (different pedigree ;) ) next time the queen was mated.  At the time no-one knew what was causing it and they were trying to find out.

Lopear,

Just found this info on the net and thought it might be useful

http://www.craigmcfeely.force9.co.uk/Rameses/fck.html

Good luck again

Dill

Dill, that website was fantastic!! Just about to go and raid my husbands sock drawer and make a couple of "sock jackets" for my pups!

Thank you so much!!!

So glad it helped Lopear!! :D

Having had the tragedy of two flat-chested kittens who died and one who survived, I know what its like and I'd have tried anything to improve their chances of survival.

Good luck - let me know how you get on.

Dill

As an update on my "Swimmer puppies", I have just heard from my Vet, who had spoken to the "top Vet in this field" that the chances of my puppies ever being right is very slim. Their back legs are bent back the wrong way "Hyper-flexion" to give it the real term. I had previously tried hobbling them but they got it off, so the Vet tried but to no avail. Should I keep trying or take the Vets advice and "call it a day" with them. They are absolutely beautiful pups, it's breaking my heart.

My heart goes out to you. I feel only you can make that decision, and what ever one you make, you will make it for the right reasons. I am so very very sorry.

Margaret

please please dont do anything drastic with these pups as in my breed we often have back legs like this,my friend had one born like it only 5 months ago and when it got to a few weeks old it corrected itself,i know you find this hard to believe but its absolutly true,i can give you her phone number to ask any questions if you like,her dog is now ready for her first show and youd never know anything was wrong. like you her vets thought it was serious but she rang me and i told her to just leave it as i have known a few puppies be pts with this and they have been perfectly healthy,please listen to me and dont do anything,i know with swimmers you have to prop them up on their chest so breathings easier but as for the back legs they do come right,please let me know if youd like to know more
louzola

just to add i have a pic of my friends puppy at birth with her back legs splayed flat out, i can e mail pics privatley if you wish just so you can see,then ill send one like she is today,which is totally normal,id hate to think you had them pts for nothing.
louzola

I can only back up what Louzola has said.
If you need to speak to a very knowledgeable vet who will give you a totally honest
answer please let me know.
I know of people who have gone with their vets advice and PTS a pup only for it to be wrong
and the pup would of come right.

This is for Louzola and Carolyn
Please, by all means, let me have as much info as possible.Any phone numbers or photo's would be gratefully received. My email address is Yvonnepicnic@aol.com.

Thanks again

Perhaps there is light at the end of the tunnel for these poor babies!

hi,did you get my pics? please let us know what you think
louzola

Lopear
Please get a second opinion. I know of one case where on litter sister was PTS and the  owner of the other litter sister persisted and this dog is now Fine!!!!! You need to find a VET who is experienced in this aspect and is willing to go the extra mile.

I keep my fingers crossed for you and your pups.

Having seen the photos from Louzola, I am very hopeful that these babies will "come right". Thanks everybody for your help, just shows, Vets don't always know what's best!!

glad to be of help,will be in touch,take care
louzola

I have the same breed.  My last litter  she had two. one born dead.  The one that was born alive was on it's feet right away !   it then became too fat from all the extra milk and became a swimmer.  when this happens it isn't genetic.   her legs became like rubber.  I had her on egg shells and rotated and messaged her.  she is gorgeous and will be shown.  don't give up on this !  this is very common if there are only one or two in the litter and they become too fat.
let me know how she is doing. best of luck

Hi Darleneaw

The puppies are improving, especially the boy, who is smaller than his sister. He is nearly on all fours ( They are 4 weeks old today) and she is making stenuous attempts. I feel confident that they will both make a recovery now, having spoken to several people about swimmers. I'll keep you up to date with their progress. I have taken photo's and will continue to do so, to show their progress to the Vets.

that's great news.  That's about when Mine got up on all fours also.
would love to see them.

oh thats great news lopear,im so glad for you,keep up the good work
louzola

Fantastic news - keep hanging on in there!!!!

Lopear that's great news :D

Are you going to charge the vet for his education? :D :D :D :D

Hi,

My puppies sister was last up on her legs as her back legs just couldnt hold her weight lol (she was very chubby).  Breeder and myself were worried sick about her, we read all the books about swimmers etc, then we thought she could be deformed, breeder even tried tucking her back legs under her and helping her up a few times each day  All the other three pups were up on their feet but not her.   Finally after a further five days she finally made it up and has never looked back.   She is perfect in every way despite us having written her off as being crippled :o(.  I guess weight does play a part in their developement.  Remember puppies are like babies and do things at their own pase when they are ready, the books are only a generalisation.  Dont worry too much and i hope all goes well .

Hi All,

Had the puppies out on the lawn yesterday and today, and the boy is walking, a bit wobbly, but he is doing it!! The girl won't be far behind him, as well, she is very nearly there. They obviously can get better "traction" on the grass! I am so thrilled and HUGELY relieved. Can't wait to take them to the Vet for their check!!

great news,well done
louzola