Hi
I had a very interesting conversation from a woman who works for the inviromental health animal welfare and she was telling me that the rules have changed for a dog breeders licence, it used to be if you had 3 breeding bitches then you needed a licence but now the rules say even if you have one bitch now and you take a litter from her and you sell these puppies you are classed as comercial and you need a licence, thought i would pass this information to all of you, the only reason i am letting you know because a woman i know is now being investigated by someone who had a grudge against her.

I believe you only need a licence if you breed five or more litters a year.

However your local council may have made its own rules.

she said it doesn't matter how many biches or how many litters you have you now need a licence for even one litter, she said it was the new rules, but it may well be just our local council that has changed she never said, but it makes you wonder if this new rule will apply to all council's, she also said that people who advertise ie.pets at home and other places with be investigated.it makes you wonder !!!

I've actually asked the Kennel club about this only on Wednesday, she said what Jeangenie has said, you need a breeders license for 5+ litters per year, not how many bitches etc.

Where do you get the breeders licences from, the KC or the council?

The Council.
:)

I'm not sure but I think that some councils may differ, but to my knowledge it still is 3 breeding bitches.

I think that they look into people who advertise in pet shops etc. as it is more than likely that these are the people who may have two or three bitches and a male and have litters from them.  If you have good lines and nice dogs you don't need to advertise in this way.

well in this case our council must have changed there rules, true if you have good lines and nice dogs you don't need to advertise, yes she did say that she was looking in pet shops ect.

Councils vary.

Walsall Council's site is very helpful.

West Norfolk council says: At this authority, we treat as a business any breeder whose rate of litter production is two or more in any 12 month period.

so if its the council, then it doesn't matter what the KC says then?

Best to check on your own council's website as to how they interpret the law.
:)

The KC says what the national Law says. Councils can be stricter if they wish.

Ok thanks :)

This isn't quite true, EACH council sets it's own rules and around the UK 2 breeding bitches are not very common in the rules. Have a look through Google at some of the councils I think you will be suprised.

The KC do not set the rule on what is required for a licence they are nothing really to do with it. They do perhalps advice on what they have been told but they don't set any limits or rules. The licence requirement is local authority. :-)

this is what i was told from the woman from animal welfare, but was only passing on what i was told

Years ago when I had my first litter and they said I needed a license regardless of how many litters or bitches you had. 

a friend of mine asked our local council(Falkirk are) a month or 2 ago and was given the following reply..............................................

For the purposes of licensing,a breeding establishment is where
someone carries on a business of breeding dogs for sale.So strictly
speaking ,if you breed a litter for the sole purpose of selling the pups
for profit, you fall within the remit of the legislation and require a
license.

Hobby breeders who breed to improve their own stock ( eg. for
showing or working purposes )  do not fall under the Act even if they
do sell some pups unless they have 5 or more litters in a year.

Hope this information is helpful but if you wish to discuss anything in
further detail please contact me

dont know if thast just our area or not??

Wow!  It looks like the OP is correct.  In Bristol and South Gloucestershire you certainly need a licence to breed ANY dog if you sell it.

Well that certanly isn't what the local dog warden has told us.  Have yoiu a link as I can't find it by googling?  the whole point of the new act was to leave hobby breeders out of the regulations and target those breeding for money and puppy farmers.

What happens when hobby breeders make a profit? its a fine line.
Amos

Well my hobby breeding in tha last 4 years has me in the red by £6000

Profit, Profit, what would that be then?????  My bank manager would also like me to answer that one ;)

dito.  I think mine will have a heart attack this month!!

I think it is the interpretaion of "....a business of breeding dogs for sale..."  Now for most of us we do not breed as a business, but anyone breeding five litters is deemed to be so doing, and some councils are cjoosing to call any selling a business, but I can't see how they can do this or prove it is yu objected and showed otherwise. Even people with an accidental or otherwise cross bred litter will sell the pups and not give them away.

I have just moved from North Shropshire to South Derbyshire and have found that the councils have different policies re dog licensing for breeders in each area.  South Derbyshire advised me that I don't need a license unless I breed more than 4 litters per year, whilst North Shrops and Telford and Wrekin had a different policy in that owning 2 bitches or more capable of breeding had to be licensed so it is wise to check with your local authorities to see where you stand as the national law is 5 or more litters.

I had a visit from Fenland District Council about 2 weeks ago, thanks to a neighbour, an animal welfare officer and a council worker arrived, they said that as long as we did not have more than 5 litters a year no license was needed and after I asked them to look round said that I had not the amount of dogs require to make my home a breeding establishment.

I think different councils make there own rules

I have never really looked into this, as I have only bred 3 litter in the last 8 years I never felt it applied to me but I'm wondering if push came to shove what would be the disadvantage of just applying for a licence or am I being naive?  Are they very expensive?  I would have no objections to the inspections after all my prospective buyers come and see how my dogs live, where the pups are reared etc. but are there other requirements that it might be more difficult to meet such as having to have seperate food preparation areas and would it be a problem to use my preferred welping area ie my kitchen :)? 

where can i find out about norfolk county council licence? better to be safe than sorry so i will check it out
fiona

If [link http://www.west-norfolk.gov.uk/westnorfolk%5Ccouncil.nsf/textpages/dogbreeding.html?opendocument&Start=1&Count=1000&ExpandView]this[/link] is the wrong council you may have to phone them.

Edit: Drat! You'll have to copy and paste. Sorry.

thanks will have a look
got it now lol
fiona

thise would be the problem areas they would consider whelping in bedrooms and kitchens as inappropriate as well as lack of isolation facilities etc, and the food thing.

thenof course there would be the change of use of your property and I suppose business or agricultural rates rather than domestic, of course they may refuse to let you run a b4reeding establishment if it is a residential are as your neighbours would be consulted about it and may object.  In other words a whole can of worms.

Aaaah! Worms I don't want , I'll stick to saving all my receipts then :)

A lot of people years ago under the more than 2 bitch rule just got a License for about £25 to save any bother, but there wer no silly requirements.  When my breeder moved  and asked about applying she was sent do much red tape about what she could and could not so that she didn't bother as she never kept more than two entire bitches of breeding age, and only bred a litter a year.

I emailed Licensing & Strategic Services for Cardiff and this is the reply,

A breeding establishment for dogs is defined in Section 4A of the Breeding of Dogs Act 1973 as amended by the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act1999.  In general terms a person requires a licence if they carry on at any premises a business of breeding dogs for sale where five of more bitches give birth to a litter of puppies in any year.

Lydia

Well the law states five or more LITTERS not the number of bitches having them, as in the hands of puppy farmers 4 bitches could have 8 litters. 

That is why the wording of the act was changed to number of litte5rs and not the number of brood bitches owned.  Many people kept more than two brood bitches but diodn't breed from them all in a year.

So am I right in thinking even though I have 3 bitches who will be bred from at some time or other, but not in the same year,  that I don't need a licence ?  I was getting worried as further up it mentioned 2 brood bitches and a licence would be needed.

Lydia

You need to check with your local council as to how they interpret the act..........

I am having someone investigated at the moment and because they sell a lot of different pups they were supposed to have a license but unfortunately for her she hasn't and the local council are now after her.
Unfortunately she sold me a dog that was not a pedigree and whose parentage on the pedigree was so mis spelt and mixed up, so im afraid she has no sympathy from me, I was ripped off to the sum of £400.00.

in response to Britney,question- do they (council) ask neighbours if they object?

As it is my first post, sorry if I have put it in the wrong place.  Certainly my local council requires that anyone breeding from a dog needs a licence (cost c£72 - valid for 12 months) and there may also be a charge for a veterinary inspection.  Anyone breeding more than 5 litters in any 12 month period would be considered to be running a dog breeding business, under this it is deemed a dog breeding establishment.

Hi all im new to this forum but just had to reply to this post ... i had the environmental health called on me 2 months ago as i own 4 dogs .. 2 of each sex .. one of my neighbours has a grudge against the breed i own .. but the lady from the environmental health office told me that in order for me to have a licence i have to have bred 4 litters .. also in order to be classed as a business i need to be producing 5 litters or more per year.

Hi,question when you apply to be registered or to be licensed do the local authority  write to the neighbours for objections?

The Law(as opposed to the Local Authority's interpretation of )on the Breeding of  Dogs Act(& subsequent amendments 1991 & 1999) has this section

[4A Breeding establishments for dogs] 

[(1)   References in this Act to the keeping of a breeding establishment for dogs shall be construed in accordance with this section. 

(2)   A person keeps a breeding establishment for dogs at any premises if he carries on at those premises a business of breeding dogs for sale (whether by him or any other person). 

(3)   Subject to subsection (5) of this section, where--  
  (a)    a person keeps a bitch at any premises at any time during any period of twelve months; and  
  (b)    the bitch gives birth to a litter of puppies at any time during that period,. . .  
he shall be treated as carrying on a business of breeding dogs for sale at the premises throughout the period if a total of four or more other litters is born during the period to bitches falling within subsection (4) of this section. 

(4)   The bitches falling within this subsection are-- 
  (a)    the bitch mentioned in subsection (3)(a) and (b) of this section and any other bitches kept by the person at the premises at any time during the period;  
  (b)    any bitches kept by any relative of his at the premises at any such time;  
  (c)    any bitches kept by him elsewhere at any such time; and  
  (d)    any bitches kept (anywhere) by any person at any such time under a breeding arrangement made with him. 

(5)   Subsection (3) of this section does not apply if the person shows that none of the puppies born to bitches falling within paragraph (a), (b) or (d) of subsection (4) of this section was in fact sold during the period (whether by him or any other person). 

(6)   In subsection (4) of this section "breeding arrangement" means a contract or other arrangement under which the person agrees that another person may keep a bitch of his on terms that, should the bitch give birth, the other person is to provide him with either-- 

  (a)    one or more of the puppies; or  
  (b)    the whole or part of the proceeds of selling any of them;  and "relative" means the person's parent or grandparent, child or grandchild, sibling, aunt or uncle or niece or nephew or someone with whom he lives as a couple. 

(7)   In this section "premises" includes a private dwelling.] 

Nearly every council has different ways of enforcing this Act hence the different experiences of breeder throughout the country

There is no mention of contacting neighbours re objections as in planning permission applications, but some councils may or may not contact neighbours

I'm okay on the law bit ,it's just that on the forms it says'if no objections are made a licence will be granted' I wondered where the objections came from as I have the neighbours from hell

Yep, my local council have the right to request a premises inspection by the vet (paid for by the applicant over and above the £72 licence fee), no reference is made to the neightbours (she says scurrying away to check again).

Sue

Just to throw in a question why not have a law that says a license is compulsory for breeding any litter ? That way would it not deter the people who are in it for the money and not for the good of the breed ? If you are registered a member of your breed club then you would automatically get a discount ? Just a thought :)

Lucy
xx

The thing is, the people who aren't interested in obeying the law if it doesn't suit them simply won't bother. :( It used to be the law that every dog had to be licenced - most people just didn't bother.

There's no point in having an unenforceable law; if such a law was brought in, who would make sure people obeyed it, and what would be the penalties if they didn't?

Don't get me wrong, I think something needs to be done. But you need to be realistic.

No No No. 

This would allow the council who are hardly experts to stipulate how we should keep and rear our litters. 

We would not be allowed to whelp them in the bedroom and keep puppies in the kitchen, in the bosom of our family but would probably have to shell out for some kind of sterile facilities, for which we probably wouldn't be granted planning and maybe even need change of use. 

Those of us breeding as a hobby are the ones that were supposed to be protected from this new Act, but over zelous councils want to make life difficult and insist that even one puppy sold is a business in some cases when that was exactly what the new rules were meant to clarify.  Foru litters or less hobby breeder, five or more (inclkuding bitches on breeding terms) considerd commercial.

It would seem though that some of the worst commercial keenels still are in busdiness, maybe they make enough money to influence the inspectors???

Ok I see where you are coming from so what is the answer ?

Perhaps a revised Licence taking into consideration different levels of breeding and establishments ?

Lucy

xx

You need to be able to cover the Bloggs family and their Flossie (she's so cute, she deserves the joy of motherhood, all our family want one of her babies) just as much as Mr Commercial Puppy-churner.

If you don't licence your car, it can be seized - would you have unlicenced bitches (and their litters) being seized also? If not, where's the compulsion to get a licence in the first place?