Hi all.

I posted a few weeks ago about my GSD, Tyler having bad diarrhoea, weight loss etc.  We had blood and faecal tests done and he was diagnosed with Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency.  He has been put on Pancrex and also the vets Hills ID diet.  The Pancrex is covered on our insurance but unfortunately the food is not.  I wondered if anybody else has any experience of this and what they feed their dogs who have EPI.  I don't mind paying the high costs of this food but am not sure if it is really working that well!! Would be really grateful for any advice.

Thanks.

I know someone who fed their dog on Nature Diet Might be worth contacting the Nature diet people & feeding several small meals a day

He was a rescue & lived a long & happy life

I will go on to the Nature Diet website and have a look.  I asked the vet if there was any other food I could use for this condition instead of the Hills ID but he said no!!

Given that EPI is a condition in which the pancreas stops producing and secreting enough digestive enzymes to digest food in the small intestine, then you need to supply the missing enzymes some other way...Eagle Pack Holistic-Natural Pet Food can provide them as well as NZYMES Bac-Pak Plus Probiotics & Digestive Enzymes in a more concentrated supplement form.

The is a yahoo forum for owners of dogs with EPI where you should get some good advise - sorry I don't know the address offhand.

http://www.dogaware.com/specific.html#ibd

some useful info on this site under SIBO and EPI

Thanks everybody for your messages.  Will have a look at the sites you have all mentioned and hopefully get some more advice. 

My bitch was diagnosed with EPI just about a year ago, and she had lost about 8 k, she weighed about 25K and dropped down to 17k. I too use Pancrex (they are cheaper to buy at the chemist) and I now feed her twice a day on 1/2 tin Pedigree Tripe Mix or Butchers Tripe  and about 75 grams of Burns fish and brown rice at each meal.  (She is a small standard poodle). We are now down to just 1 capsule with each meal.

She has put weight on, and is fine.  I had her spayed, even though the vet was most reluctant to do the op, but there were no problems and she even put weight during that couple of weeks, and weighed nearly 23k.  You can't feel her hip bones now and she is quite nicely padded, is happy and fit and alert, in fact I started to show her again, and she was Reserve Best In Show a month ago.

Thanks Jen your message was really helpful.  Did the vet prescribe you Hills ID as my vet said nothing in the shops was suitable!!  He has been on it for about one month now and has not really put on any weight.  I can still feel his ribs and his hip bones are sticking out.  Also Tyler is on the Pancrex powder. Do you know if the chemist do a powder or just capsules. 

My vets didn't push the Hills diet, it was by somewhat trial and error I finally got onto the current diet.  Anything that is low fat is obviously easier to digest.  I did buy the frozen fish from AMP, and also used their minces, which used with the Burns were OK.  Obviously you need some sort of wet food to put the Pancrex on.
I use the Pancrex capsules, which I take apart and empty the powder onto the food and mix well in.  Any chemist will get this for you, I found a difference of about £10 between getting it from the chemist and the vets.

Initally I was using about 3 capsules each meal, and gradually reduced this to just 1.  Get the dog weighed regularly and watch what comes out the other end - that is the best way to see how the food is being digested.

I feed twice a day, maybe you could try 3 times a day to start with.  Hope this helps.  I think it took me about 4 to 5 months before we got on an even keel.

Hi Fiona, My german shepherd had this 5 years ago and although she had to had the pancreatic powder, my vet also said the only food she could have was Waltham Sensitivity Control Diet Capelin and Tapioca, which was since changed to Royal Canin, but the same food. Six months ago I rescued another g.s.d. and he was on Wafcol Salmon and Potato because of skin probs. so I thought I would try her on that as it was also fish based. She has been fine until this week whenshe has spent 2 days on a drip at the vets with very bloody diarrhea. However, he does not think her EPI has returned, but merely a very nasty bacteria she picked up and today she is fine. We have asked for an EPI blood test to be done because we would like to know whether she still in fact has it, as another vet told me last year he didn't think she had. Did you knowthis is a typical g.s.d. condition? I have had 6 g.s.d's now but did not know this until it affected my dog 5 years ago, when we almost lost her that time with blood coming out both ends and on a drip for 5 days with massive amounts of antibiotics. Anyway, the Royal Canin Capelin and Tapioco food instantly hardens her poo and she had no trouble whatsoever on this food, but you have to get it thru your vet as it is prescription only, sold in 15 kg. bags at a cost of around £60? Very good luck with your dog as I know what you're going through.

My Flatcoat has been suffering with pancreatitis for 4 and half years.  When he was first ill, my vet said single, quality protein food, so i started him on James Wellbeloved and he has been on it ever since.
After the last time he was hospitalised, in January this year, my vet suggested Hill's ID, but we couldn't get on with it, so he went back on JWB.  My vet said as long as he has low protien and low fat/oil he will be fine and for and 8 & half year old, he looks fantasic and is still winning well in the show ring in his veteran classes & is in training for his gold Good Citizen award. I can ask for no more from him!

Pancreas problems are heart breaking.

http://b-naturals.com/Jul2004.php

You may find this link useful re pancreatitis

Hi Hopevalley, sorry to hear about your flatcoat, but pancreatitis is not the same thing as Pancreatic enzyme deficiency (EPI). With EPI the pancreas does not produce enzymes to digest the food at all and dogs have to be put on a special powder of pancreatic enzymes in order to survive, as without it they would just go to skin and bone as nothing can be absorbed by the body. Pancreatitis is when the pancreas is inflamed or damaged, and is not the same thing as EPI.

Hi HELENA, I realise that the two illnesses are different, but they do involve the same organ.  I thought Fiona18 might like some support from someone who also deals with a pancreas problem on a daily basis. 
My boy has been in the vets three times on a drip to save him, because of his pancreas and I very proud of the fight he has put up each time.  If my experience can help and support someone in a similar situation, I will do just that.

Yes of course you can hopevalley, I was just pointing out the fact that it is an entirely different condition as any vet would tell you. My dog has also been on a drip twice now, once for a whole week with massive amounts of antibiotics and the vet said she should have died, and that was four years ago when she was first diagnosed.

This is the first and last time I will ever be posting in this forum as yet again you know it alls cannot be civil to people who post on here, you have to come back and throw it in their face, and I strongly object to that. You have already upset lots of my virtual friends who have posted on here, and I can see why they feel the way they do now about this site. Why couldn't you have just said your piece, without adding your final sentence?? Goodnight and goodbye, I hate this site!

Apologies to you hopevalley, I was only trying to give you some help and support, but I will leave you in the hands of these know it alls on here and hopefully they can guide you.

Helena I think you are overreacting :) but then perhaps I should not be saying that ;)

Eh?

Why be so rude to hopevalley, saying you hate this site, and then apologise?

Ooops that was a senior moment, the apology, as I meant to apologise to Fiona18 who started this thread. I am not overreacting, I am just stating that this is a thread about EPI, and I don't see why somebody should post on a completely different condition, thereby confusing the original poster, and giving advice on food etc. when Fiona's dog does not have pancreatitis in the first place. Should this thread have been about pancreatatitis I would have had no axe to grind, and I didn't anyway, until hopevalley put that last sentence in her post to put me in my place, when my intention was only to point out to Fiona that pancreatitis was not the same as EPI. I'm getting very bored now with this, so I'm off to a more pleasant place where the people are friendly and helpful.

Good, bye then

It didn't confuse me.  It read very much, to me, like someone giving a little empathy as they had a dog with a similar condition, Hopevalley made it very clear in her post what condition she was talking about so no confusion there.  I'm no expert but wouldn't an inflamed pancreas cease to function at least for the duration of the acute phase and therefore be very similar in symptoms to a chronic condition where the panceas is not working in the long term? 
Nor did her final comment read, to me, as putting you in your place, but rather as someone explaining their comments in response to your objections.  On most threads on Champdogs lots of people muck in with their contribution and I think it a shame if someone tries to limit that with accusations of know it all etc.
It seems clear from your comments and sweeping statements about Champdogs as a body that you have come here with a preconceived notion about it.

HELENA...I think you may have misunderstood my intention.
Although, I do hope that the references to 'you' are not directed at me personally, I would take affence at that.

I don't feel like a 'know it all' and don't respond to some posts because I feel I don't know enough about the subject, but i just feel that I can sympathise with pancreatic problems as i know how special these dogs are.

I added the part about the food because I wanted to share my experience, I thought that was what this kind of forum was about, but you obviously see it differently.

I hope your dog is ok, and there are no more trips to the vet.

Hopevalley. In hindsight, I probably overreacted to your last sentence on your post and I think maybe our wires were crossed somewhere when I thought you didn't know there was a difference between the two conditions and you obviously did know the difference, and so maybe took offence at my original post. Anyway, suffice to say, thankyou for coming back to me and explaining the situation and thanks for your comments about my dog as I am in fact awaiting yet another test result on her EPI at this very moment after she was back in surgery last week heammhoraging blood, but that's what happens with this condition. I am only back here because I was notified via e-mail about your post and I wanted to leave without any bad feelings, as it is very difficult to define the written word compared to speaking face to face isn't it and I am not all bad, as I'm sure you're not. Thankyou once again.

Hi Helena,

I think its the strait-jacket and medication for you again! :-) :-)

HELENA, I appriciate you coming back, as I typed my last post, I was thinking that if I could have spoken to you, maybe it would have come across as I intended.  So much gets lost in the written word. :)
My heart goes out to you at the moment, while you are waiting for your results.  Good luck, I hope all turns out well.

Tohme, the above makes very interesting reading. 
My boy is on JWB senior/light because of the low fat content (& because he's now nearly 9).  The only extras he gets are the JWB crackerjacks, and is doing well. We watch him very carefully as he can downhill in a couple of hours.  No one but myself and my husband are allowed to give him anything so we know excatley what he's having!

EPI is relatively common in GSDs(in that it is more common in GSDs than most other breeds) & does not go away sadly, we get a few dogs in rescue with it(the owners never tell us mind you)that the owners no longer want & as the kennels has access to raw pancreas it reduces the cost to them

Hi everybody.  Thanks for all your support and advice.  I am sorry if some of the messages have caused bad feeling between people.  My GSD Tyler is ok at the moment (touch wood) but its nice to know that I can come on here and chat to people who are going through the same experiences as me.  Thanks again to all. 

Hello to everyone,
This is my very first post on a web-site...ever...so please excuse me.  I am heart broken and looking for any answer.  My GSD Britta was diagnosed about a year ago w/EPI.  She went from 88lbs. to now and maintained 70lbs.  She has been on different enzymes and currently on Viokase-V about 3 tsp per feed.  I have tried many foods even the raw diet.  Immodium seems to be the only cure.  I want to feed her more often, but she will only eat her food 1 x a day  unless of course it is my food which just hurts her.  Does anyone have any ideas of a food she will eat and gain weight.  If she loses much more...well you know.  I will not let her suffer.  Please help.  Thankyou

Hi

our dog was diagnosed with EPI and we were given Pancrex.  We just mix this with tinned Chappie and we saw an improvement on the first day.  6 months down the line she is still thriving and like a new dog - Also our Vet was charging £56 per 250g of pancrex - you can order it online for about £35!!

http://www.dealtime.co.uk/xDN-pets--price_range_30_40~V-rows there is the page

I wouldn't believe everything the Vet tells you or advises - especially if it involves them making money out of you!

Ask at your local chemist if they can get the Pancrex for you - I did and pay about £25 for it!!!!!!!!!!  Its a non prescription drug so you can buy it easily.  The chemist has to order it, but its in within a couple of days.

My insurance pays for the enzyme powder from the vet but they have told me if I can get it cheaper elsewhere, which I am in the process of doing, as long I send a 'cover note' from the vets saying this is needed for her, and a receipt,  they will pay up.  I'm glad someone else uses Pancrex  because someone I know who's dog has just been newly diagnosed tried to change from capsules to this powder and her vet told her they stopped making it 5 years ago!! I assured her this wasn't true as my girl is on it. For some reason (?) he was adamant she stayed on the capsules, at £60 a bottle ;) I know you can get it at Boots a lot cheaper and also online and its even cheaper if you get the non stinky stuff from America ;)

Its the Pancrex V capsules I use, but I know you can get the powder.  Think I prefer the capsules as I know she is getting the exact amounts of the enzymes. 

These capsules are Lypex, and you have to break them open and sprinkle them on the food. Very fiddly I thought when maddie was on them at the start, changed to the powder and now sprinkle one or two spoons - easy ;) I have kept the capsules cos I heard that you can give them whole when training with treats and they are good for 20 minutes or so - don't know how true that is, never tried yet :)

The Pancrex V capsules are NOT Lypex.  I have used them for nearly 2 years and have found them to be excellent, BUT the powder MUST be mixed into the food, hence I use a small amount of wet food and then add the complete low fat kibble I use.  I am certain that the dog gets the correct quantities of the enzymes, and certainly haven't found them to be a problem regarding breaking the capsules.

It must be stressed that the powder must not come into contact with the skin, therefore important to mix in with the wet food.  I wouldn't want to give my dog a whole capsule with titbits.

Hi Jen, I know Lypex and Pancrex are different makes, but Lypex was what she was on :) I also make sure its thoroughly mixed in the food, raw chicken which has enough moisture to activate the enzymes and I also give it an extra mix right before she has the food. But at £60 a bottle for 60 tablets it was also too expensive as she needed 8 per day (over four meals) so thats 4 bottles per month. Sure its less messier with capsules and they don't stink like the powder does and I probably wouldn't sneeze every time neither   Maybe in time when she's stable and can maybe take less food I can change back but for now its what we have to do :)
Thanks your input re training and capsules, maybe I won't try it as I was in doubt anyway

Dee

The Pancrex V costs me about £25 for 300 capsules - quite a difference in price then.  My bitch is now stable and although has 2 meals a day only has 1 capsule in the evening meal.

wow thats a good price, I pay £56 for 300grams of powder, lasts a month

If the powder you use is for humans, enquire at your local chemist how much it would cost.

Hi Jen, yes it is available at 'Boots' a bit cheaper, also online is cheaper too. In fact I've just had some Pancreatin 6x from the US at only £74 incl p&p from London (long story) for a 1000 grams! If I order direct it will probably cost a bit more than £74 but still cheaper than here, and it doesn't have that horible smell either :) When the insurance runs out end of May I will be looking into alternative routes, maybe the American way ;) but for now they are willing to pay the costs.
How long has your dog had EPI? Did it take long to put weight on? At the moment it is going on slowly but she is still growing so she kinda grows out of her weight if you see what I mean. She has been doing good for the last month or so and I do hope it stays that way. Do you use Prozyme? I've heard its suppose to help stabilise the weight, don't know if thats true or not?

Dee

My girl was diagnosed with EPI in June 2003, and it took about 3/4 months finding a food which really seemed to work, which was the Burns fish and brown rice which was mixed with 1/2 tin of good dog meat or mince, fed twice a day.  She slowly put on the weight and for about a year now she is back to her normal weight, and is absolutely fine.

I am now feeding her the Vitalin salmon and potato, which suits her fine, and as its for the older dogs of which I have 4, and also for sensitve tums, I feed it to all my dogs, which makes life a lot easier as I have 7.

I always make a point of checking to see what is coming out the other end, as its a good indication that the food is being digested.

Thought you would be interested to know I have today purchased some more Pancrex V capsules and they were cheaper this time - £22!!!!!

Thats a good price. How many did you get? I know its 34.64 + p&p on line for 300. Are they the human ones?  Must say I'm pleased with the price I've paid for the powder, filled 3  300g tubs for half the price I would normally pay :)
I'm really pleased with the progress she's making just lately, seems every day she looks even better than the day before :) Just wanted to tell someone ;)

Dee

That was the price for 300, and yes they are for humans, hence obtaining them from the chemist.

My GSD is 2 and a half years old and has just been diagnosed with EPI - We have bought the  pancrex-vet powder which cost us £70 for 250g also the Hills dog food which is approx £1.60 per tin, we need to give her up to three tins a day plus five teaspoons of pancrex power twice a day, we have almost used one tub -  any advise on where we can get this cheaper would be brilliant, can boots supply the same drug? more information please.  She has been taking the food and pancrex now for six days and already I can see an improvement with her.

Boots the chemist sell it but not sure how much, though cheaper than what I pay which is £56 per 300g, but not sure if you have to get a prescription from the vet first. Also petvetcare online sell it cheaper too. Is she not covered by insurance? At the moment my girl is covered until June when I will then have to pay for it myself but am hopin to get it from the  US as it is much cheaper than over here :)
Is there a reason she has to have Hills, as that seems pretty expensive?
Dee

Boots will sell me the pancrex-v £43.95 for 300grams and you dont need a pescription - I then phoned my local chemist and they can get it me for £33.95 for 300 grams without a prescription.  I called the vet to confirm it was okay to give hattie the powder from the chemist and they said that as long as the ingredients are the same there will not be a problem - will let you know tomorrow when I pick it up.  The Hills food was recommended by the vet so I bought 24 cans which is one weeks supply which cost me approx £34.00
I am of course looking for a cheaper alternative - maybe I will try the chappie it says it is digestible - or maybe mix it with the Hills - any suggestions?
Let me know about the drug from US - would be worth buying in bulk if you could.

Mix the powder into the chappie, and then mix in something like Wafcol salmon and potato, Burns fish and brown rice I've had my dog on this, but now have changed to Vitalin salmon and potato which has been fine and is a heck of a lot cheaper than the Hills stuff.

See earlier posts on this subject.

I have picked up the pancrex powder from my local chemist, ingredients are the same but slightly different units  - smell is the same though. You use it exactly the same with your food.  Will keep hattie on it for a week and keep an eye on her poohs - will mix it with chappie etc as recommended by Jen.   Thanks for all the info everybody really has helped.

Let us know how you get on - it is somewhat trial and error to find the right foods and the right amount of powder.  Take it slowly.  Good luck.