Lambs are docked, cows de-horned, chicken's wings & beaks are clipped yet tail docking - something that has been carried on for centuries - is likely to be banned under this Government......

Perhaps if the regulations about lamb docking (the tail must be left long enough to cover any orifice) had also applied to dogs people wouldn't object so much ...

Also what about lambs and cattle? I have lived and worked on farms and lambs tails are banded and for good reasons, but little boy lambs and calves are also castrated by banding, OUCH!! But yet this is overlooked, although I am not against it, nor am I against tail docking but it does seem dog owners are preyed upon by the rspca.

How to speak dog, by Stanley Coren is a good book. It explains how dogs interact with each other and what all the different body positions and sounds mean.

Thank you for that, I am after a good book on dog behaviour :-)

I would have to agree.  My own dogs have tightly curled tails and have no trouble with or from other dogs, tyey are very sociable and socially expereinced and have no problems being understood or understanding other canines including my freinds docked dobermans.

Never had any problems with my dogs who have docked tails.  Even with their long shaggy coats, hidden eyes and floppy ears you can tell what mood they are in :d  Anton, who is a natural bobtail has a wonderful sexy bum when his stump wags.  He's the most expressive of all my dogs.  Just thinking about it I've never had a problem with any other dogs even though they can't see my dogs eyes, I wonder why?

hunt like .....hounds?

No, 'hunt' as in 'search for'.

do hounds not search then? they arent docked are they?

Foxhounds etc have very different tail carriage, action and construction (more muscular, more hair) than the majority of the HPR breeds.
:)

<Vtic>im suprised dallies arent docked,:) wouldnt like a tail like that around great big carriage whheels!!!

:D Michelle :D

That's not where they were meant to run! ;)

phew!!!!!! could have been a major change to a breed otherwise!!!!!

I've always wondered, what does a Rottweilers tail look like?  I've never seen one that still had its tail.  They are such heavily built dogs that I think they would need a thick, stout tail, like a Lab's, to match their bodies.

Yep, that's very much what they do look like. See here.
:)

What a beautiful photograph of a rottie.  It looks fabulous with a tail.  I have a Bracco Italiano and Ruby's dad was docked and her mum wasn't.  I asked the breeder about this and she said that they actually don't dock the Braccos on the continent.  UK is the only place to still do it.  Ruby's dad is stunning and I like them both with the tail and docked.  I have to say though Ruby isn't docked and my that tail can clear a coffee table in one swoop!  It wags a lot too and if it hits you on the leg its really painful.  The breeder says that she prefers the Bracco undocked as she feels it gives better balance and proportion.  The Bracco is a pointer so I suppose that makes sense.  She's 10 months old now and its sooo lovely to see her in a point.  She often stands at the back door and points at birds in the garden!!!  Bless!!

Thanks Jeangenie.  I think I like they way they look WITH the tail better than without.  Those massive chests and heads seem to need a little something more in the back end for balance.

Hi Tigerlily..... When i bought my staffy pup at 6 weeks old from a breeder, i was given the option to have his tail docked.... but we told her to leave it on as i think it's so cruel to the dog. :-D :-D

Staffies shouldn't be docked though so the breeder was wrong to offer that as an option.

I'm glad you brought that up Christine ;) I was thinking 'i'm sure staffies have tails' But i was starting to doubt myself :o

I've seen loads of staffies with docked tails :-D

Justlou, are you joking, I can't tell if you are or not? I have definately never seen a docked Staffie!

Dawn R.

Dawn... No i'm not joking, i'm being serious

Well. I'm gobsmacked.......that has to be the biggest load of hooey I ever heard, and your breeder leaves alot to be desired.

Dawn R.

Sadly I have also seen docked Staffs one originally sold as an old tyme bulldog, and they said the mother was pure bred staffie. and the father was a Bulldog.  The pup looked all staffie to me so I think some unscrupulous person was trying to make out they were something different as anything buldog costs a lot more than a Staff. :(

Thanks Brainless.... i thought i was going mad!!!

:-D :-D :-D

That would not be an Olde Tyme Bulldog, Bulldogs crossed with Staffies are known as Romany Bulldogges :)

And they are born with long tails, normally known as a "Pump Handle" tail, its normally quite stumpy towards the base of the tail, that being because of the traits of the Bulldog Tail.  These dogs are not normally docked, and if people say they should be docked, they are completely in the WRONG for doing so. :)

Oldes, VBs or any other alternative Bulldog should not be docked, although there are ABs that have been known to have been docked through requiring tail injuries, no other reason :)

Well I suspect that these people wwere duped into having something different.  the breeder can't ahve bbven much cop for crossing two purebreds and calling the result a breed (charging the people £600) and for docking the poor pups too.  There are hundreds of Staff crosses regularly in Bristol Dogs home for a donation.  Fools and their money are easily parted.  they then went on and got themselves a bitch pup 6 months later and were wondering why within 6 months the male was getting dog aggressive.

I think this might be a wind up as you cannot dock a 6 week old puppy's tail it has to be done within 72 hours after being born, so no breeder could give that option and Staffordshire Bull Terrier's are not a docked breed, never have been, any that have been docked will have been through injury.

Christine... i ain't gonna argue with you.... i'm being serious regarding seeing staffies with there tail docked.

And regarding my puppy.. i know the breeder so i knew from day one that i was having a pup, and she did offer when they were born to dock my puppies tail.

Christine.  Just to correct you on the point that tails have to be docked within 72hours after being born.  I have just taken my puppies today (day 7 - they were poorley with fps) to be docked and our vet told us that ideally it should be 3/4 days after being born but that 7 days is the last day they can be done, after that for some reason it should be done at 6 months.  All our puppies are fine after docking and yes, it hurt them more when the dew claws were removed.  Also Christine W. x

Pepsi mum,did you stay there and actually watch the vet do this? How did you handle it?  I couldnt have bared to watch,especially as you said you could see them hurt :(

Not having a go,it's just that i know i would gutto out,i just couldnt do it,i'm interested to know how you dealt with it :)

Hya frodo
Well no, I did'nt actually watch when he cut the tails although I did have to hold each pup as it was being done.  It was a bit like when you go to the doctors and you know you are going to have blood taken, you know they are going to do it  but you can't bear to watch.  They did't yelp very much just a little when tails where done and then again when dew claws removed. I grew up, at weekends anyway, on a farm and so I suppose I am used to seeing lambs getting their tails done and seeing cows castrated etc.  That's worse in my opinion.  Even Pepsi did'nt seem to be fazed by it all and as soon as we got back in the car, the pups just went back to sleep.  They were feeding as normal within say 10 minutes of getting back home. Like the vet said, "who can remember back to when they were babies?"  that came from a vet that does not like doing the procedure but even he agrees that it is necessary  in some breeds.

our vet told us that ideally it should be 3/4 days after being born

Christine,

I'm not having a docking debate but your own vet has echoed exactly what I had written!  ;)

has to be done within 72 hours after being born,

No one wants a docking debate Christine.... what i think pepsi's mum was trying to point out was that you said it has to be done within 72 hours, and she had her puppies done at 7 days. :-D

I'm just quoting a Rottie breeder.

Yep, I'm pro docking, and I have always been led to believe 72 hours max. I definately think 7 days old is too way late.

Dawn R.

You've got to be kidding, Justlou. Staffs have never been a docked breed, so no vet is going to dock them (apart from anything else it would knock hundreds of pounds off their value). That means the ones you've seen have been illegally docked.

Get out of here...I've NEVER seen a docked staffie...I doubt "loads" have ever been docked!

Me neither, JG, Staffie do have fairly short tails sometimes perhaps you are mistaking this for a bit of a dock Justlou.

Yep i agree i like them better with tails :)

I saw a doco of a lady that rescued wolves,nursed them back to health and then released them again.She had a huge pen where the wolves were kept,she also had springer spaniels,i think it was,anyhoo her dogs had docked tails and floppy ears,she also had GSD's.The woman noted that the wolves were more aggressive at the fence line to her docked,floppy eared dogs than to her GSD's,her explanation was that the wolves could not properly read the body language of the docked breed.

Just because wolves cannot read the signals does not necessarily mean other dogs can't they have not shared lives for several thousand years during which dogs have changed in more than just appearance, in fact the change of appearance itself may have led to changes in communication, that's evolution :)

well i think that I have learnt something from all of this, here is my theory, I think that dogs that are properly socilised at the right time are social and can read other dogs even docked and floppy eared dogs, but if they have NOT been properly socilised then the can't read the body language properly and this might be where the promblems arises, just a theory but I think it may make sense, well to me anyway!!!!!!!

It makes sense to me too! The more dogs a puppy meets, the better it is at mixing - trouble is, they certainly remember the breeds that are, shall we say, are less than friendly. I am always surprised how they DO recognise breeds, and how, in that respect, they are so like us - one bad experience makes us (and them) wary of that particular breed, and it takes a lot to change that first experience.

Well said Labs and I agree. The early socialisation is the key to a dog who can read all the signs correctly. A poorly socialised dog may read a Staff or bulldogs (just examples) natural posture as aggressive and if they can not read the other signs properly and they are fearfull, then this may lead to mis-communication, resulting in problems.

Re. body language impaired due to altered appearance, I don't know, but I think there could be something to that, at least in some situations.  Met a couple who did not want their older golden to associate with my Lab.  They'd had a very bad encounter with another Lab, which had attacked their dog.  The Lab's owner had been very apologetic and said her dog had never done anything like that before.  After assuring them that Jet was very timid, but friendly, they did allow interaction and the dogs had a little play.  Then I noticed that their dog was missing an eye and of course I was horrified because I thought it was a result of the previous dog attack, but they said no, it was due to an earlier operation.  Later I met the lady with the attacking Lab and it was one of Jet's doggy friends, Sally, who certainly hasn't ever acted aggressively with us.  Sally's owner and I think it was the missing eye that bothered Sally, although it did not seem to affect Jet.

Wow that is really interesting Jetstone Jewel.

One thing that is a sign of aggression and confrontation in a dog is when they tense up their muscles and look "big" and assertive. This may be a reason why alot of dogs do not like Staffs, Boxers, Bulldogs etc etc, because their natural posture is this big tensed look. It also explains why these type of dogs often get dog aggressive, they feel threatened by the signals being given off by the oncoming dog (who sees them as a threat) and instead of waiting to be attacked, they take the lead. Again, just my opinion. Any thoughts on this?

My Boxers have never attacked or been attacked,touch wood :)