Right, before I start this is not intended to be an argument. I am genuinely confused on something and just need it clearing up.

I am not for or against tail docking, I find that there are reasons good and bad for each. My questions is though, that because most tails are docked for working reasons, why is it that not all working dog breeds are docked? I have seen the damage that some people say warrants the tails to be docked, but Labs, Golden Retrievers and Beagles all are active working dogs but they are not docked, why? Are they not at risk of the same injuries? This is puzzling me now, but I expect there is a good reason why, just wait to hear it. Thanks in advance. :-) xxx

Well I don't know about beagles but I would say that its because when they hunt in a pack they do so more on open ground than in cover, just my opinion but if someone else knows different then it would be nice to know.

As for the labs and goldens, they are retrivers and not really meant for hunting like the spaniels in thick cover  (although I do own a yellow bitch who think she is a springer in a labs body!!!) Also labs were origionally (sorry cant spell) for retieving fishermens nets and so their tails was needed for swimming. So this is my opinion but I'm sure you'll get lots more!!!

Kerry

Thank you Kerry, that makes sense. :-)

Labs and Goldens need their tail in the water, its used as a rudder.  It is also thick and well covered in all the Retriever breeds, so is much less likely to be damaged at all.  Springers and other Spaniels have manic wagging tails, they are much smaller dogs that work in rough cover, in hedges, bracken and brambles etc...  because they such waggy dogs, the tails are hit against all the cover, thus causing injuries to long tails, for this reason they are docked.
Dawn.

im pro choice but there are inconsistancies!

english pointers & german pointers

poodles they swim right?dont they need rudders?

OES & beardies

collies & ASDs

the two types of corgi

GSD suffer from alot of tail bottom problems yet they arent docked!

i like tails personally,but wouldnt want any body changing my breed,so am pro docking!

Our breed - Australian Shepherds - were originally used for herding the large herds of sheep and cattle in the American West - when you think of the large herds of cattle that you would see in the Cowboy films, the Aussies were the dogs that would be right in there.

I've seen film of the way that they work cattle now - and if they had tails, there could be a lot of serious damage at times.

However, over here, there aren't that many that would be herding - although I know of some that do.

Margot

what about the red welsh hillman a big welsh collie that herds cattle
personally i think aussie look great docked & love their wiggly bums,but find the tail damage thing hard to believe

One of the films I have seen (from someone in Nevada) shows three dogs herding - one of them actually RUNS OVER the backs of the big herd and disappears down into the middle of it   - cutting out a small section of the herd, whilst another two are moving them round - abosolutely fantastic to see!!  A tail amongst those hooves could be a right problem!

Mrgot

like a huntaway which is not docked!!! ;)

sounds really exciting! they are so nimble footed arent they !! theyed have to be!!

Of course, there are those that are naturally bob-tailed in the breed, but I have some concerns about breeding bob-tail to bob-tail - I know that one doesn't breed naturally polled goat to naturally polled goat -because of hermaphrodisim, and I just worry that we might be laying down problems for ourselves in later generations if we go along this rate to keep the natural "wriggle bum" look of the Aussies :D

Mine look so provocative from behind, when their "trousers" are full - waggling along :D :D :D

Margot

yes it is worrying.
ive seen a few ASD X BCs & some the tails have not been good almost half length. yet i saw a full tailed aussie at crufts that did have a really nice tail (def prefer them docked though) im glad my breed does not risk been fundementily changed

Pembrokeshire Corgi's were always natural bobs before WWII after which some cardigan corgi blood was introduced to improve size & of course in came the dominant gene for a complete tail There are some lines that were free of the tailed gene & i know that some PC breeders are working towards a natural bob tail again

Lots of the English breeds were of course docked to avoid the dog tail tax ! The scottish never had the tax

That's interesting. I've never heard of that. A tax on dog's tails!! Hope they don't bring that one back (lol)

Lube 

>>Pembrokeshire Corgi's were always natural bobs before WWII after which some cardigan corgi blood was introduced to improve size & of course in came the dominant gene for a complete tail >>

I think you have that the wrong way round MM :-)

Pems and Cardis were one and the same breed until 1934 and most were born with long tails.  The bobtail (natural dock) gene is dominant to long tail.

Julie

Michelle what breeds do you own? :)

border collies!! thank god i dont own a docked breed!i would hate my breed to have to change because of the government!!!!

i take it you havent ever noticed my sigiture!!!!! hehehehe :D
if you click on my name you can see them!!!

I read that breeding two natural bob tailed Aussies was a BIG no no! It leads to some of the litter having a shortened spine - some of the vertabre(sp?) will be missing.

Natalie

Natalie - where did you read this?   It's very interesting to me, as it is something I have been worried about for some time, so I would really appreciate this info!!

Margot

I have no idea!!! It was probably an American site - most of them are! I will have a scout about and see if I can track it down. I will get back to you. :)

Nat

Margot,

I have been searching for over 2 hours now, and haven't found it :( I must get back to decorating our hall but I will have another look a bit later. I am not even sure why I was reading it in the first place, if I knew that I could probably find it a bit quicker! I will have a good look through the history on the laptop, and see if I can find it that way. When I find it I will let you know :)

Nat

The bobtail gene was always thought to be associated with spinal defects but that's not what Bruce Cattanach reported in his Boxer breeding experiments using a bobtail Corgi.  The gene is dominant and bobtails were bred together with no defected pups resulting....but DNA sequencing also revealed that no homozygotes for bobtail were born either. 

This indicates that the gene is lethal in double dose but as the litter size was not reduced, the fertilized egg didn't even make it to implantation, so not a problem as far as I can see.  The  only problem being that long-tail gene could never be removed from the breed because of this.

Don't know if ASDs bobtail is the same gene as Corgis but a simple gene test would prove this.

more info here http://www.steynmere.com/ARTICLES6.html

Julie
 

Isn't this what Kelpies also do?

There are no inconsistencies with English pointers v German pointers. 

English pointers belong to the pointer/setter sub group of gundogs.

GSPs/GWPs belong the the HPR sub group of gundogs.

As such their works is very different.

Pointers and Setters tend to work on open plains, HPRs may work both open and thick cover.

Other members of the HPR group that are not docked would include Longhaired Weimaraners and German Longhaired Pointers as they have thick hair cover on the tail unlike their shorthaired counterparts.

My Weimaraner is undocked n hes a short haired! But as im not showing him i dont think it matters! The problem i have with it is when he waggs it, ouch, its like a whip!

You can show undocked Shorthaired Weimaraners (or any other breed) I did.  Worked her too.

minniedog,just out of inerest,did you ask for his tail to be left on?or did the breeder not dock any of them?

SHe gave me the option and i said i didnt mind either way so she didnt get it done for me! And ended up not having any of them done!

Snap I like the choice to remain and do prefer the look of the traditionally docked breeds docked with some exceptions like Weims.  I think the breeds with these half docked tails look really odd neither one or other.

I have the best of both worlds a tailed dog that keeps it's tail neatly curled up over the back. :D

The visual attraction of the longer docks are really when the dog is working. Dogs look so much more stylish and vibrant while hunting when they still have plenty of tail left to wag.

Agreed Havoc.

Interesting to note that some breeders are docking at the next verterbrae down in order to get people used to the look should docking actually be banned in the future.

havoc will we get to a stage then when they get so fashionably long that they are full ;)

Michelle,

Some working springers and cockers are almost there. Its unusual for a field trial bred pup to have more than a third off now. Undocked spaniels seem to have very long tails indeed, and thus taking only a third or quarter off leaves plenty of tail on the dog. We have possibly got to the stage where tails are being left sufficiently long that the dogs remain at some risk of tail damage. Certainly its not that unusual to see a bloody tail at a spaniel trial.

Given the length of undocked spaniel tails, I would not be surprised if docking them would continue even if it was completely banned.  They would be left sufficiently long to be quite difficult to be certain that they had been docked.

Re. Aussies doing bobtails to bobtails.  We in the Spanish decided not to take this risk so we advise people not to do this mating.  It has happened once accidentally as a litter that I bred although they looked as though they had a full tail must have been born 1 vertebrae short as their tails were very rounded rather than pointed at the end and one male was put with a natural bobbed dog.  Luckily they were OK but it is not something that I would risk intentionally as you hear in other breeds that they've had problems.  We only found out when he was put with a docked dog and produced bobtails which definitely wouldn't happen as far as I know.

Spanish like the Aussies are used as herding dogs and they get right in the middle of the action and bite at the large cattles heels etc.  Spanish also are used as fishing dogs which retrieve any fish that come out of the net so they have to dive and they also take the rope back to shore to moor the boats.  They are docked and are also born naturally.  Dog with hardly any tail at all who are born naturally this way have no problems swimming.

I have to say that I prefer SWD's without tails and that's why I have two naturally bobbed dogs as I want this trait to stay in the breed.

(English) Pointers just do that - point

GSP's - hunt, point & retrieve hence the sensible dock!

Thank you to everyone that has replied, your answers are all very interesting.:-)

The one thing that I have been considering is the use of the tail in communication between dog and dog, it is one thing that we have taken away that could inhibit communication and cause a misinterpretation. They use their tails to say alot to other dogs and not just happy things! My breed has naturally got a very short tail, and alot of times a screw tail, so this is also the case for them. What does anyone else think about this?

I chose a springer with a full tail as I didn't like the thought of docking. He had the longest tail imaginable and within months it was bleeding.  By the time he was undergoing serious training my house was covered with blood each day and he suffered infection after infection and it never healed. We had every lotion and potion going to try and heal it to no avail.  He needed an amputation and the vet took it off to about 4" long.  This was a very painful operation for him and it affected him greatly.  I don't like it so short but what is done is done.  He is now happy although still doesn't like his rump touched, especially by strangers and it's my biggest fear that a child will try and stroke him there and he will growl at them.  (He's not very child friendly). 

When it came to choosing another dog, I selected a cocker with a long dock and it's lovely.  We had the same length dock on her pups.  The best of both worlds.

I completely understand that for some folk docking is not necessary, but as the owner of working dogs, I would never risk a full tailed spaniel again.

I totally agree with you tigerlily, which is why certain breeds of dogs get attacked by other dogs, but this is not just down to docking but also to how a dog carries its tail. A dog that carries its tail high and curved says I'm in control and for breeds such as husky's, samoyed's and the like have been bred like this and other dogs may think they are being aggressive. Tail wagging is a social gesture when the tail wags widely and freely, but stiff upright tail wagging is often an advance warning of attack, which can surprise people when thier dogs attack, obviously a dog with a docked tail cannot display these gestures.

I think there is far more to canine communication than a tail.  I find I can judge a docked dog's mood or attitude by it's stance, facial expression, ears etc. and that is without the benefit of scent or any of the other subtle signs that we human's probably don't know about so I find it hard to imagine that dogs can't manage.  Certainly in my experience my cockers have not found themselves in trouble with other dogs except on the rarest occasions when the other dog has clearly had it's own agenda that no amount of communicating was going to alter :)

Totally Isabel, I agree. I have been studying dog behaviour and I am finding it very interesting, that was why I was curious on what everyone else thought. The way dogs communicate is very complex. I was just interested as the taking away the part of the tail communiation has been done by us. I am not talking about how we read a dogs behaviour, it is how a dog reads another dogs behaviour, they don't understand that the tail has been docked so wont necessarily look else where for signs, it must confuse them slightly.

If other dogs could not appreciate all the other signs and mannerisms it seems to me they would have never developed them, a few may be for our benefit but many of them are never displayed except to other dogs.   My cockers have no tails or ears that prick but, as I say, they really don't seen to have any problems in communicating their mood and attitude to each other and other dogs they have never met before.

You are also right, but dogs comunicate mostly through body language and the tail is not the only thing that humans have changed, Ears for example, ears that are pricked show interest and attention but ears that are laid back can show fear and submission, so what about dogs that cannot prick thier ears. Also coat, dogs that have a coat that may look like they have thier hackles up when in fact man has bred them this way. Smell does play a big part in communication, how else would a chihuahua reconise a great dane as being the same species? But just because we reconise what a dog is saying though body language doesn't mean another dog will.

Please don't take offence this is just my personal opinion.

Kerry

I have also studied canine psychology Tigerlily, its so fasinating isn't it!!!!

No offence taken Kerry. Yes it is so fasinating and yes other things we have done effect it too. The ears and coat like you mentioned, I had never even considered it before but I am totally amazed at how complexed it all is. :-) Can you recommend any good books?

Well i got a home study course off the internet, it was quite a while ago now but if you type in Canine Behaviour Centre it should come up. It cost me £200 but it is good. It does say that if you decide to do the case studies that you can earn yourself a certificate to start up your own practice, but personally I don't think that after reading one book you can call yourself a qualified psycologist, I just got it to help me understand my own dogs a lot better. Hope you find the site.

Kerry

Just because a dog doesnt have upright ears doesnt mean they cant communicate with them. "Floppy" ears can be pricked (kind of) to show alertness etc. and laid back or folded to show submission or aggression. Wolves coats are thick and dense - their hackles dont show like a very smooth dog breed, so dont blame humans for everything :D

Well I can see your point but I was just going by past reading from different sources and can only assume that  if these all say the same sort of thing that obviously someone, somewhere has put a great deal of time over many years in studying how dogs communicate and how human intervention has had an influence on this. 

I have only been studying my dogs interaction with others for 25 years ;) but dogs have been docked and had floppy ears for centuries I do feel if it had created problems with allowing them to live and work together, though times when it was very important to people to have useful working dogs that weren't a load of trouble to them, the practice would have been dropped long again.

I have a docked breed and wish it to stay that way, what really annoys me is that the government, RSPCA and all the people that object to docking don't even mention taking dew claws off!  Anyone who is familiar with docking (which is done at the same time as removing dew claws) knows that removing the dews claws can be worse than the actual docking.  If they are so concerned they should be banging on about that too!  RSPCA etc would be better off spending their time sorting out people who do not look after their animals properly.  Puppies that are docked correctly are back with their mother and feeding again within a couple of minutes not like other dogs who may have their tails but can live a life of misery with uncaring owners! ok rant over!!!!! sorry if I have offended anyone, its just my opinion!