I have a 4 year old springer bitch and an 11 mth old male springer also. The intention is to breed, she doesn't seem to have had an obvious season although she was slightly swollen down there recently. She is now showing signs of pregnancy, eg. very swollen teats, milk from the back six and a widened rib cage.  She has never had a phantom pregnancy before, but also barely shows signs of being in season ever.  Could we have missed them mating as I hear all this talk of helping them, making sure they tie etc.. and None of this has happened???

Only you can answer this question - were they together when you were not present? In which case, yes, you could have missed them mating.

they both live in an outdoor kennel together, because of her not having obvious seasons we thought this would be the easiest thing, however we are always being told they would be 'AT IT' constantly and he wouldn't leave her alone but with these signs I am just not sure?  Sorry to be vague but I didn't expect it to be so difficult.  Is there any other signs I could look out for?

At 11 months old, has your boy had all his health tests? I really dont follow the reasoning of putting them together because your bitch shows few signs of being in season - surely that is more reason NOT to put them together? The only way to find out if she is pregnant or not is to take her to the vet.

>>At 11 months old, has your boy had all his health tests?

Well you can't hip score until 12 months old.

It can also be dangerous to leave them unsupervised, something could go wrong and either the dog or bitch could be hurt (thinking if they do tie and one tries to pull away :( )

I would suggest you do a little more reading, try to get someone experienced in the breed to guide you and wait until both have had all their health checks (and have suitable results). Also are their lines compatible?

we have them live together because they are company for each other and any resulting pregancy would be welcomed, they are both in very good health, kept up to date with all recommended vaccinations and wormers etc.. we live on a farm and so they are also very well exercised. Both dogs are KC registered and so we feel that having them live together shouldn't be an issue.  Obviously if pregnant he will be removed before any pups arrive. My question really is only if  it could have happened without my knowledge?

We got him with the intention of breeding so we checked both five generation pedigrees before we bought him to make sure no mistakes were made

Sorry Clare, I don't understand - what mistakes are you referring to??

I  wouldn't want to breed with anything too close to her family line!

Linebreeding can be the safest option for novice breeders - out-crossing can be a gamble. Are you out-crossing then?

I'm sorry I am not sure what you are talking about now??!!

I would separate them from this point on and hope she hasn't taken. You should look at doing some more research and if possible get someone experienced in the breed to guide you.

When i purchased him it was from a retired vet breeder. We told him our intentions and took the 5 generation pedigree for him to see if they would be suitable for breeding.  He seemed to think and I that the lines were far enough apart to breed.  Why is this wrong?

The further apart the lines are, the more individuals there are to be researched healthwise. Totally unrelated dogs can be carrying the same genetic problems.

How do you know they are healthy, If your boy is just 11 months then he is not old enough to have the health checks done. Hips scoring cannot be done until a year old, and eye must test clear annually and you should have certificates proving this.  As you did not know about these tests, I assume your bitch has not had these test done either, therefore you have no idea what if any hereditary defects this mating may pass on.  If you sell any of these pups without parents health certificates you must be honest and tell the prospective owners. 

I am sorry I seem to have offended you, I have not had any of these tests done and when purchasing both my bitch and dog was unaware of these health checks. I am obviously a little naive of the whole breeding thing, but right now I only want to know how to tell if either she is pregnant or having a phantom.  Presumming he is even capable at 11 mths

He is more than capable at 11 months - my bitch has just come into season (5 days ago) and we have a 12 month old dog. They are both separated and will remain so until her season has finished.

Clair, Its okay, no offence taken but unfortunately this sort of thing is happening all too often, this is what is termed as backyard breeding,  and very frowned upon.

Right, wrist slapping time is over,  I your bitch is pregnant, I assume you are going to need allthe help and advice you can get, and I am sure we are all happy to do that.  Firstly do you have a rough idea of the dates of her season, so at least we can have a rough idea how far on she is, if she is pregnant.  Also, I would suggest a trip to your vet for a scan for the bitch if she is more than 4 weeks but under 6.  This may prove one way or the other.

Ask as many questions as you need, we will help :)

Thankyou. as I said before she doesn't have what I call an obvious season.  Her last one was when we got our boy 7 months ago.

I noticed small amounts of milk about 2 weeks ago and widening of the ribs. More recently she seems to have more 'hanging' teats with larger amounts of milk.  She runs for miles after the quad and the cows and ordinarily doesn't stop apart from a quick jump in a water trough for a drink and cool down.  Lately she will have a good run and then stay with me rather than keep going until the cows are in.  She also is doing a strange cough thing where she sounds like shes going to be sick but isn't. Her tummy doesn't seem to be enlarging though.

Bitches carry the pups under the ribcage, not in the stomach.  The stomach usually does not enlarge until a week or so before pups are due. This is due to the pups lining themselves up in the horns of the uterus in readyness for the birth. Usually when a bitch is pregnant she will start to get a bit clingy, this seems to be what is happening with her preference to stay close to you.  Regarding the cough, it may be that, if she is pregnant she is taking too much food at one meal now.  I would suggest splitting her meals into 3 or 4 smaller portions throughout the day, rather than 2 larger feeds.  Also if she is pregnant, she will need extra from around 6 weeks onwards. Preferably a high protein puppy food.There is no need to curtail her excersise, she will gradually do this herself, but just make sure that she is not excerting herself to the extent that she may injure the pups or herself.  It really would be ideal if you could try an pinpoint dates of the season, this will help to determine a due date.  Gestation is usually around 59 - 63 days.

how can I pinpoint the dates though?  I only noticed rib widening about 2/3 weeks ago and at that point she was swollen down below.  Now she is back to normal size down there but seems to have more milk.  How soon would the ribs widen as the swelling to me would suggest end of season???  (Completely guesswork you understand!!)

Now I'm confused :D  when you say swelling down below, do you mean the vulva?

Yes

oh I think I forgot to mention the old springer incontenant until at least a year, stroke me and I'll wee habit seems to have returned with her.  Not so much as when she was a puppy but definatley back!!

That sounds like submissive urination, not incontinence. But have you had her urine checked for infection?

no, I guess a trip to the vets is definately in order but without me pinpointing dates, will they be able to tell if it is pregnancy or phantom as someone said to me that they can give them something to dry up the milk, I obviously don't want them to do this if she could be?!!

That is submissive urination and a sign of a weak character in an adult, but common in youngsters in some breeds.

Submissive urination, what does this mean, both of my springers have done it as puppies for at least a year and she has only done it now for the last couple of weeks, why would it reoccur now??

Submissive urination is common in pups who lack confidence, or get over-excited. When a dominant individual approaches they often roll over and wet themselves, not through fear, exactly, but in total submission ("look, I'm inferior, I'm no threat, don't hurt me"). As they become more confident this stops. Sometimes it happens when they're so thrilled at their owners' return they lose control and wet themselves then. Again, they grow out of this.

If it returns in adulthood it could be a sign of a urinary tract infection, or hormonal upset (frequent urination is often a sign of an impending season), or some form of emotional insecurity.

Brainless, for some reason, Springers are  prone to urinate, both my Springer bitches did this, and neither were weak, both strong Alphas. But they were very excitable and eager, and when the tails wagged you stayed out of the firing line, a bit like hippos spreading the muck in scenting :D :D

Do you mean even as adults???

Fraid so Brainless, If very excited when someone petting them, the tails wagged for scotland and the piddle got sprayed quite a few feet. Very embarrassing at times :D  Megan did it right up until the day she died. They never bellied up, just stood, wagged and piddled. 

Yes I mean swelling of the vulva (sorry, not confident with terms!!) What about the rib widening though? Just getting old or early signs?? How soon would that happen??

I wouldn't expect to see visible sighns for 4 to 6 weks, more like 6 in a first litter.

If you're on a farm you may well know someone with sheep who has them scanned, if your vet can't do it. That way you'll know if she's pregnant, though your vet would be best at determining the age of the whelps from the size.
:)

If she is pregnant, she could only be around 14/20 days depending on her days of ovulation. As JG says, if you know someone with a sheep scanner, this would confirm pregnancy, but a vet would be better at determining the age. I would do this as soon as possible.

bitches vulva's swell as they come into season this then decreses and softens at the time they are ready to be mated and gradually things return to normal.  Some bitches don't bleed much at all, so when you notice that they are about to come in season (swelling more frequent urination) then you dab them each day with a tissue until you see some pink staining and this is day 1 of the season. 

You should then keep your bitch closely confined and away from male dogs for at least 3 weeks and better nearer four to prevent her being mated. 

Even if you intend to mate her she can still become pregnant by another male that comes along and have a mongrel or mixed litter.

A scan by your vet should tell you if and roughly how far along in pregnancy she is.  If you can remeber when she was swollen I would count from about two weeks after this as a rough idea of how far shw could be.

He would be more than capable at 11 months but it is unwise to breed from dogs that have not been hip scored or tested for Hereditary eye disease as you could inadvertetnly be breeding pups that could go blind or end up with hip dysplasia. 

Even with testing you can't guarantee you won't but the chances are much improved that you will produce good healthy pups if the parents have good results.

Your dog and bitch would need to go to yoru own vet and have X-rays tken (I recently paid £170 for these for my bitch) and it will cost up to about £30 for an eye test which has to be done by a specialist vet.  Your own vet can get you the name of your nearest KC/BVA eye panelist or you can contact the BVA. 

You should get the eye tests done and the males hops scored even if your bitch is pregnant and have hers doen as soon as practicale after the litter.

Have your dogs been independantly assessed as being of sufficient quality to be bred from.  they shoudl conform as closely as possilbe to the breed standard which can be checked by showing and or working them against competition in their breed.  The purpose for breeding any litter shoudl be to maintain and improve the standard within the breed. 

Sadly ther are a lot of ill thought out and poorly bred pups of most popular breeds in rescue centeres :(

I have recently supervised two seperate pairs to be mated. 

The first was a freinds bitch and a dog I bred.  Both technically maidens (the boy had been tried with my very difficult bitch).  He didn't pester her as she wasn't quite ready, and on the 12th day I let them in the garden for some privacy to see what would happen.  As he showed no interest I turned away to do something in the kitchen only to turn around and find they had mated and he had tied and turned in the twinkling of an eye.  The bitch was steady and needed no reassurance. 

The dog then left her alone the next day and mated her once again on each of days 14 15 and 16, and just before he left when their behaviour told mne she ahd gone over they sneakily mated again wheile I was on the phone arranging for his owner to fetch him on day 18.

I have just mated my Jozi to an expereinced male who had mamaged to mate the the once with help nearly 2 years ago, but had not managed to do so because of her being unwilling to countenence being dominated.  This time he stayed with her throughout her season and started practicing with her frequently but stopping short of serious attempts (he normally would just get on with mating a bitch) until day 15. 

I did have to intervene as she had her male female roles mixed up and she would mount him or thrust Her hips rather than stand when he mounted.

It is most unwise to leave a dog and in season bitch unsupervised as in the latter case my bitch could have easily injured the dog during the tie when she tried to roll over, buck and lie down as she felt irritated by it.

So matings can be very simple and straightforward or not, dogs may wnat to be at it constantly (but rarely actually follow through that often :D ) or may only mate a bitch a couple of times over several days and ignore her the rest of the time.

If they were together and she was in season they may have mated without you noticing.

Also at 11 months he won't ahve been old enough to be Hip Scored so should not have been used for breeding yet.

Thankyou for your reply, from this I could have missed them mating then??  I shall seek advice from a vet ASAP

You could have missed ANY passing dog mating her. If she has pups you'll have to get them DNA tested to see if any of them are from your boy.

Also does she (or he) have any breeding restrictions on their KC registration forms? If so you won't be able to register the pups unless the breeder lifts them.

Clair - I think that you really must get a copy of The Book of the Bitch (you can get it from Amazon - it will be delivered within 48 hours.   This will give you most of the information you don't seem to have at the moment about the breeding process.

If by any chance she is not pregnant, I strongly suggest that you join your breed society, who will tell you what health tests (and I don't just mean a quick check of heart, lungs, skin etc, by the vet) that both your dogs should have before mating them.

You say you have 5 generation pedigrees for them - I take it that they are both KC registered, and that these registrations have not been endorsed?   If they have, you will have to approach the breeders of both of them requesting that the endorsements are lifted and showing that health tests have been passed.

I would also suggest that if your bitch is 4, and has not yet had a litter, she may be getting a little old to be having a first litter - although it may be that in your breed that this is acceptable.

Please start doing your homework now - if she is pregnant, you cannot just leave them both in a kennel together and hope that they will get on with things themselves.

Margot

And if she is not pregnant, please do not leave them together when your bitch "may be" in season. Unsupervised matings can damage either or both, and I am sure you dont want your bitch to be having litters every season from now until she dies.

english springer spaniel screening consists of eye testing, fucosidosis testing by dna & hip scoring
http://www.sesss.org/health/health.htm
sorry dont know how to do links
read this link it will give you some thing to think about regarding testing that should be done BEFORE a litter is even thought about. i know we are not all perfect & mistakes are often made, just pay more attention in future to your bitch, a bitch in season will be any target for any dog
am not having a go at you, just trying to help you

Hi Clair
It may be advisable to get both the pregnant bitch and the fathers eyes tested there`s no reason why this cannot be done during her pregnancy.
I would also reccomend getting you dogs hip scored when he reaches 12 months.
You cannot x -ray a pregnant bitch so you would need to wait 4 months post whelping to hip score her.
As has already been said it is not compulsary to health test but it is advisable and will make your puppies easier to place.

You will also need to talk to your vet about a worming program for your bitch and he resulting puppies.

good luck

:)
edited to say
what ever peoples opinions on the *show * people health testing is ethical breeding and if you were in A FCI governed country you would have to do these tests prior to breeding in order to register the resulting puppies.

hi in answers to your question yes you could have missed them breeding. also dont be put of by all the people telling that you have done something wrong. it is advise able to get the relivent test done but not complusary. as you live on a farm and the dogs are kenneled i dont see how another dog could have mated her. so dont worry about dna tests. i know alot of *show* people on this site get very up themselves when it comes to non *show*people  breeding.speak to your vet and any friends you have that have breed before. apart from that its a waiting game.  oh do you work your dogs? remember it only take a few minutes for the dogs to mate and you don't even need them to tie plenty have bitch have had large litter without a tie.might be an idea to seperate them now as you aren't sure of dates. good luck with everything and hopefully you will have some little ones soon. and this will be a great learning experience for you

>it is advise able to get the relivent test done but not complusary

it is compulsory if you want to do the best by any puppies you breed and also to stop yourself from being sued by any new owners who buy one of your pups and end up with a pup with HD or something else which could have been tested for.

What a stupid thing to say :(

<this will be a great learning experience for you> What a good reason for breeding a litter, I don't think

to be honest moon it is a learning experience cause if the bitch is pregnant there not much she can do. and if she isnt pregnant then she will know to get the test done if she does want to breed.

Well sorry but I don't consider"accidental"breeding to be a good learning experience Not knowing when she is due, whether or not the dogs are inwardly  healthy. Having had a BC with really bad hips that never had any problems with his hips & a Cavalier with a symptomatic Syringohydromyelia I am only too well aware that an outwardly healthy dog can hide a multitude of problems, that untested my dogs could have passed on

If the bitch is in whelp & just one of the puppies has health problems that could have been minimized with heslth tests a very steep price to pay !