In recent years certain hitherto popular Terrier breeds have become almost extinct.What is it going to take to encourage newcomers to take on a good old British Terrier breed rather than one of many new imports?

I think, in the main, people assume all terriers are little yapping snappy chasing dogs - they discount them as a group without really looking into the different terrier breeds. It is so sad that this is now a catch 22 position - more and more open shows do not schedule different terrier breeds, just AVNSC Terrier so the whole group (other than Staffies and Westies) risk declining numbers.

I think that there is a lot of truth in what you say.However I do think that in the past it was the various merits of certain in decline terrier breeds that resulted in far more litters and registrations. (Did my grandfather worry about " snappy dogs" for example) I feel that it is fashion that determines which breed to go for when a newcomer is first considering showing nowadays.!
The Internet gives us a great opportunity to promote those merits and those breeds,and it is finding ways to maximise this opportunity that gives me hope.

I suppose that it doesn't help that nowadays the breeds don't or aren't allowed to do the things that they were bred for so less people are interested.  Also terriers aren't that publicised a group really.  Let's face it how many terriers do we all know?  Westies are all you see these days really and even these you don't see out and about.

Asa you've said maybe the internet will be able to promote these breeds as there doesn't seem to be any other real way of doing it, unless people are interested in showing etc.

I think the same goes for the hound grpoup where my breed resides.  similar breeds in other groups seem to have much more interest shown in them, some of which are far less easy to live with.

The average man in the street seems to stick to the working and Pastoral breeds or gundogs when choosing a pet.  with the odd popular example from other Groups, like Westies and Staffs from Terriers, Poodles and Bulldogs from Utility, and Cavaliers and Yorkshire terriers from the Toy Group.

Anyone doing a day at Discover Dogs could confirm this.  I honestly think it would be better if Discover dogs was arranged Alphabetically then people would consider a wider selection of breeds.

I agree Barbara I suggested a lady have a look at Crufts & she got totally confused finding the Yorkies first amougst the toys, good job we went on the same day & I could show her were the terriers were

Having a quite near neighbour with a pet Patterdale(yes he is a pet & a lovely fit & active 9 year old without a grey hair anywhere)he is neither snappy or aggressive, he's a damn good house dog tho' & popped over to visit the other day & have a romp with the Cavaliers & GSD

I think the KC could do more to promote all the breeds that are in decline, apart from the little they have done already, Some people think of hounds as all being like Foxhounds or Aghans, I know someone who though Elkies were smooth Keeshonden ! They also tend to think terriers are all snappy etc A lot do need a lot of coat care but some like the cairn & border need tidying/stripping  & little more, they also do tend to be quite hardy little dogs with wicked senses of fun, met a lovely BT doing obedience the other week(my Cavalier boy felt instantly in love ;)) quite a stylish little dog & a long with the Mini LC Daschund had plenty of attitude in the obedience ring !

It is worrying, though, that the KC seem to think that the way forward is simply to encourage more breeding. It is education of potential owners that is needed, and it is a shame that there are not more "Discover Dogs" type events - certainly I think at least a couple more per year could be organised - perhaps at one of the Welsh shows and one of the Scottish shows.

That is a Good idea actually as it would give us Crufts in March SKC in May WKC in august and the London Discover Dogs in Novemeber a reasonable spread through the year of such a facility for someone seriously researching a breed as all the shows are representative ones.  Also gives a chance for many people to be within reach of one of these events.

I agree it is education that is needed, and with luck with people being exposed to more choice of breeds some of the over exploited ones with huge numbers of poorly bred stock that contribute to reduction in the general quality of the breeds rather than their maintenance would become less profitable for Puppy farmers.

Very sound thinking-well said.

I agree with you fillis. I think that some people need education. If I was asked to describe a wheaten I would never ever say snappy. Like you said before when you say terrier some people automatically think snappy etc...
Good idea about holding a discover dogs type of thing. :)

Sarah xxxx

The way forward is through positive thinking such as the suggestion that you made.As I said before people can be turned on to terriers (I was) if their merits are promoted .The smartness of some terrier breeds cannot be beaten.The character of some breeds also cannot be beaten .As for loyalty, good house dogs and easy management, again they take some beating. OK, there is always sacrifice for the best and in my breed it is the trimming but there is plenty of help out there .Some of that enthusiasm for Staffies that we see so often proves that there is interest among the young for dog showing.

I assume you have scotties - a lovely terrier, and a pity they are not more popular. Sarah (Dollydaydream) and I have Soft Coated Wheatens, and like Scotties, it is the high maintenance coats that is the main drawback, but as you say, the owners and breeders of these breeds are more than willing to help - in our breed there is a kind of extended family of people who will go out of their way to advise and assist. In one way it makes having a numerically smaller breed better to own.

It is interesting that you have Soft Coated Wheatens because this is a breed that I have admired only relatively recently as their numbers seem to be very much on the increase. (they seem to have 'burst on to the scene' as it were!) 
Has the American style of presentation made much impact here?

They are not trimmed as much as in the States, but are certainly trimmed more than they were 5 or 6 years ago. Interestingly, the Americans seem to leave a little more coat on now, but I think that may be due to the fact that they have worked to improve coat quality.

There was a spate of no scotties around for a while (or well bred ones) but at one of the recent breed club open shows here in Scotland the entry was huge.. out they came from the woodwork.. :-)  very pleasing to see/hear.

Fillis , sadly I am not so sure it is the high maintenance that makes them seen a bit less as westies have the same maintenance and are very popular. I think it is their strong will, difficulties in breeding them etc.

This is why I think the scotties escape from some of the puppy farmers because  they are not interested in the added cost and work. They are also so very strong willed or certainly far more than the westies.  Training them from a young age is vital IMHO.  The registries in the BRS seem to have increased again though.

Look at the registrations of westies, and a huge % of these are not the best examples of the breed. They are a very popular ones with the puppy farmers and often sadly seen as a second breed for breeding by many breeders all around. I often get enquiries for puppies from people who breed other breeds, like telling you would make you sell them a puppy easier ( don't know how to do the roll eyes :-D)

We bought a scottie for my mum last year. She has always had 1 or 2 dogs as pets together all her life generally either a cairn, scottie or westie only replacing them when one has passed away) we had to do a 1000 mile round to get a decent one just as a pet and that wasn't an impulsive buy that was a 10 month wait.

I think there was only 2 litters of Sealyhams in this issue of the BRS but this breed has struggled for a while. I have a freind who shows them but doesn't breed very often at all.

Numbers in wheatens have steadily increased, and it is debatable whether they should be on the "endangered" list - they have a problem with the breed in puppy farms/mills etc in America and we dont want this to happen here. The problem with the numerically low breeds is that numbers need to increase very gradually so that we can be sure they are bred for the right reasons. As everyone knows, the more popular the breed, the more poor examples bred (Westies being the prime example). In a way, being difficult to breed could help a breed such as Scotties as much as hinder it - responsible breeders will, hopefully increase in number and the "farmers" will not be interestd - but it is yet another catch 22.

You are right in the assumption that Scottie Breeders would like to see an improvement in the number of exhibitors breeding good stock and right also that we don't want to go down the Westie road.The breed Clubs are working hard to this end I know for a fact.
I was interested to read that you havn't seen many Scotties about in Scotland! Some of the Breeds most diehard and determined breeders live up there and to their great credit often travel hundreds of miles to show at breed club and championship shows in England---often for little reward.Scotties are alive and well in Scotland--thank goodness.Surprising also to read that you had such a journey to get your Scottie when some of the best currently are bred in Scotland.
By the way, which was the breed club show with a huge entry?

I am 15 and I very much want to stay in my breed and eventually breed. I am looking at the moment for a dog that I can promote and show to a high extent. Like you said with the trimming in your breed and how much help is out there, I have received no end of help from wheaten people who are willing to help me with starting to breed. When I was also looking at having a welsh terrier I went to their club open show and was told by three people that they would give me as much help as possible I was given advice straight away and had offers from people to come round to there house to see there dogs. My point is when a breed is promoted there needs to be that certain amount of support as well so that if people are interested they receive as much help as possible . This also help to stop people breeding when they are uneducated and for example breeding with a dog with the health problem the club has worked so hard to minimise. So I think that promoting the breed should be done but the help and advice need to be there to help keep the changes made for the good of the breed.

Sarah xxxx

I could not have put it better Sarah.A little or your dedication is needed in breeds such as Sealyhams where they have an entry of 7 dogs at Bath--that's criminal!

The interesting thing is some of these breeds were once popular as pets.  Now they only exist practiclly speaking in show hands.

Smooth Fox Terriers were once extremely popular, as were Scotties.

Maybe it's a lifestyle thing. You know that years ago the working man would come home from a long shift at the pit or factory etc. and he would go out to his shed to tend to his pigeons or his dogs (or Budgies) I knew various men like this when I first started. Now of course thousands of these men have lost their jobs and now sit at home watching 'Sky'. The other side of the coin --as far as working terriers were concerned was the fact that many dogs were owned by priviliged people able to employ handlers to exhibit these dogs .I remember these people too. All of these people have now gone.We are left with generations of people with very much broader awareness and interests than I had as a young person.In this Technology driven age we have the opportunity to grab their attention.

Hi Scottieman, :-)

Now you are putting me on the spot with the show ;-) it will come to me. I was talking to someone at ring craft and was saying what a shame there are so few at the shows just now..  and was them told about the entry the weekend past.. which was fantastic.. It will come to me soon.. and I will feed back. Promise :-D

>determined breeders live up there and to their great credit often travel hundreds of miles to show

at breed club and championship shows in England--<

Believe me I know they exist  I do the 10-16 hour round trips from Scotland myself very very regularly and have been for the last 2 years.  I look like I have also :-))

Saw a beautiful puppy at Kirkcaldy show on Saturday. Do you show?

Interesting that Soft Coated Wheatens are becoming more popular as these are IMO the least 'terrier like' of the group, both in apearance and in temperament.

I think that part of the problem is that many of the dog sports are dominated by the working /pastoral breeds and you rarely see any terriers worked. they are also (usually)quite sparky with other dogs and can be quite willful - the same problem exisits with the hound group - because of their high prey drive they are rarely trained for obedience/agility/working trials etc and so discounted by those who want a dual purpose dog. I know many sight hound owners who can never let them off the lead in public spaces - how popular is that going to be with the general public ?.

Gun dogs are usually more trainable and remain popular. I think that peoples requirements from their dogs have changed and many of the terrier breeds simply do not fit into modern lifestyles.

Yvonne

Oh, how I agree (as do group judges - wheatens are very rarely placed in champ show groups, but do much better in open show groups). Considering the close relation to the Kerries and Irish, the wheatens appearance is moving away from them. Wheatens movement is required to be daisy cut action with long low strides - unlike the movement of most other terriers, but there are aspects of appearance which I feel should be closer to the other terriers which they seem to be losing.

That could be true but wouldn't explain the popularity of some of the breeds similar in looks to my own that are having huge registrations and at lest two of them should never be allowed off lead, one being large and very dog dominant and not a first timers breed yet is being bred in 4 figures and also a lot by the wrong people that are not registered.

Your common catch all Jack russell is very popular yet not a very obedient dog generally and can be pretty scrappy too, so no worse than some of the neglected Terrier breeds.

I used to take out my freinds Golden Retriever,a dn she was no better with her recall than my oft quoted independant turn a deaf one breed, being even worse as she would aim for any open water and refuse to come out.

Lurchers and sight hound crosses are very popular pets and their recall is no better than most Sigh Hound breeds.

I know sight Hound owners who let their dogs off where there is no livestock and are far enough from roads.  Yes they may have to wait a bit for them to return, but most of these breeds are very unlikely to pick quarrels with other dogs or be a problem to people.

Then we have some of these large guarding/Mastiff breeds being bred inlarge numbers, yet our own being neglected.

Pam, there are at least 4 top breeders of Scotties in Scotland and one is not far from you in Kinross, probably one of his pups you saw at the show. Dont forget Lomondview she has carried on from her parents as far as I know and they have been excellent breeders for a long. long time.

Hi Irene :-) , 

Hope you are not snowed under with newspaper :-) 

I am not sure if you interpretated my post wrong when I said;

>There was a spate of no scotties around for a while (or well bred ones) but at one of the recent breed club open shows here in Scotland the entry was huge.. out they came from the woodwork.. :-)  very pleasing to see/hear.<

I was saying I was pleased to see or hear such a big turn out for the show.

Gosh I know there are a few very good breeders in Scotland infact I am freindly with one couple, plus the falkners & Mrs Braid live a stone throw from me.  There just wasn't that many avaliable puppies around and I think there still isn't. Not in comparison to Westies anyway ;-)

We very rarely see Scotties around our area as pets.  

To a degree I think the Scottie breed has been lucky not to become a Back yard breeder favorite , probably % wise the pet ones bare a good resemblence to the breed standard.  Sadly the westies do not have the same fortune.   I would say that a big  % walking the street bare little resemblence to the breed standard.

When you think even where some of our dogs breeder live.

Newspaper, poo and wee, yes snowed under LOL!!!!! but its been great, going to miss the little terriors (terrors) when they go. Such happy outgoing pups not afraid of anything even the hoover, if they are out running about they chase the hoover. Looking forward to training classes again with my granddaughter. Thinking of keeping one out of Midget and Cookie, but dont know which one yet.

When you are down to 1 or 2 your sanity starts to come back ;-)