I am after a little advice for my friend. On Thursday her golden lab jumped the garden fence and despite our searching for him in the car and on foot we couldn't find him. Her other half spent until after midnight driving round searching for him and again the next morning around 6am he was out again. The police, local kennels and local radio were all contacted in the afternoon after we couldn't find him.

Anyhow the following morning at 9am (other half had gone to work by then) she contacted the local radio station again, they said that they'd had a message left on their answer machine about a found dog. They gave her the number.

She called the man who said he'd turned up on his doorstep the previous night (around 3 or 4pm) and he'd bring him back that morning.

When he brought him back she found out that he has a lab bitch in season and he'd used him as a stud overnight after the dog appeared on the doorstep!!! Dawn has been told she can have the pick of the litter - but doesn't know wether to be pleased her dog is home or angry because of what he was used for overnight!! While she didn't sleep all night her dog had been very comfy!

Everyone she knows thinks this was totally out of order, he wasn't to know my friend's dog is fit and healthy and it was irresponsible to risk mating your dog to one that you know nothing about!!

We are now telling her that she has the upper hand. This man will only have told them about using him as a stud because he will want her dog's papers to sell the puppies.

What would people suggest she does?

ASk that the bitch nis hip scored after the pups are born and also that she is eye tested now.  Otherwise refuse to sign the registration form.  for her own peace of mind she should have Him hip scored and eye tested.  Charge the man a stud fee not take a puppy.  She can then buy a puppy if and when she wants to from a RESPONSIBLE BREEDER.

How much is a stud fee?  We have been researching but can't find anything.

For a maiden dog, usually about half the price of a puppy. But in this case I'd charge a heck of a lot more, as compensation. Say £800.

In my own breed it is the full price of a puppy even for a maiden dog.

He has told my friend he has had other dogs and this will be about his 3rd or 4th litter (can't remember the actual numbers) - I don't know if it is this bitch's first though.

Errr - I read this on another board and found it a bit strange then - your friends dog got out - a stranger claims they used the dog in a mating and and now you are asking how much a stud fee is???!!!??  As you were told on the other board - if your friend was not there to witness the mating - he cannot honestly sign the papers stating that the mating took place.

How do you actually know a mating took place?

I was asking how much a stud fee is in response to the post previous to my question - nothin sinister.  Yes I know that someone one another forum said about that, but I wanted to ask for personal responses - which is precisely what I have now got.  This thread has been printed out for my friend who has read it with interest and taken on board a number of points made by the good people here.

The responses on the other forum were personal responses too - perhaps not the right ones

That's outrageous!

I would get the man to confirm in writing that he deliberately used the dog at stud, and then tell the man that no papers are available until she's seen the bitch's hip and eye certificates. If they aren't forthcoming then I'd refuse to let him have any sight of the papers so the pups can't be accurately registered (he might fabricate documents) but take him through the Small Claims Court for half the money he makes from any puppies.

What a very cheeky man....... I'd have been extremely angry if this was my dog and kicked ten colours out of this man!!!!!!!

The cheek of him.

He doesn't know anything about my friend's dog even now so anything he did fraudulantly register wouldn't be including him.

Personally, I would do nothing and tell him that I'd have nothing to do any with puppies. Someone who does that is very unreliable at best and I'd be worried what he might to next :(

Daisy

Personally, I would accept none  of this mans account of what happened. Your friend was NOT there to witness the mating and therefore if she signs these papers these COULD be regarded as fraudulent.

Good point, Kay.

He can be told to have DNA tests done on the bitch & all the puppies as well as the health tests & even than the KC form cannot be signed as the stud owner did not witness the mating, however with positive DNA evidence & an application from the stud owner the KC might(just might)register them If I was her i would also write to the KC & tell them what happened just in case he tries to register the puppies by forging her signature(someone registered a litter of BC's by my dog by forging my signature(looked nothing like mine)even though my dog was not the father(he never mated an KC reg bitch)

Edited to add Did the dog go off on his own accord or did this guy entice him with his bitch & dognap him ? A bit of a coincidence he goes off on the day the bitch is ready to be mated

Well, we were sitting in the living room, the way the house is situated someone who wanted to get to him would have had to pass the living room window as there is only one way he could have got out, we certainly didn't see anyone pass the window so have no reason to believe he did anything but get out himself.

Ah but could he have been tempted out?  An in season bitch and an owner with some treats the other side of the fence???

Again - for anyone to have got near the fence they would have had to enter the drive and pass the living room window.

This is one reason the KC are introducing the Accredited Breeder Scheme to try to stop dog registrations being falsiefied. Accredited breeders are encouraged to DNA their stock and any resulting puppies. That way this amn who has claimed to have a lot of dogs cannot claim one of his dogs is the sire of the puppies, and if he forges your details then he can be caught and dealt with.

seems very conincidental to me...the person who found the dog just happened to have a bitch in season at just the right time for mating?!

So the dog jumped the fence did he???  Hmmmm!  Surely if they saw him jump the fence they would have gone after him straight away and this wouldn't have occurred.  Perhaps he didn't jump but was pushed???!!!!

I can assure you that he is a well loved dog and most certainly was pushed nowhere!  I was sitting in the house with my friend when the dog got out - we don't know if he either jumped or managed to find a way under the fence - the point is that he DID get out, he had only been in the garden around 10/15 mins and as soon as we realised he wasn't there we went out both on foot and by car to try and find him.

LOL Chloe I thought that after I posted & hence the addition lol spooky :O

Yes I agree, I too thought it was a big coincidence, it's not too hard to believe it was a dog of any breed, but to have a lab in season and have a lab turn up on your doorstep does make you wonder...

Thank you for making that point, it was one that I hadn't actually thought of - but it's very true.  I will be printing out this thread for my friend to read.

Ditto Kay. I would have nothing to do with him or the pups to be honest. Terrible really.  These pups whether registered or not are not be raised or bred in an ideal home full stop. I would never have my name associated with then if I was your freinds.  Just another backyard breeder doing nothing for the breed.

I'm afraid that I'd have nothing to do with this man!!  How can she sign the form saying that her dog is the sire - she didn't see the mating and only had this man's word for it!!  I'm sorry but I just don't believe that a dog of the right breed would turn up on your doorstep on exactly the right day that your bitch needed mating!!  :( 
I think that it stinks and I would have nothing to do with him.

indeed... what if this mans dog is already in whelp to another unregistered dog - that has hip/eye problems which are passed onto the pups!

I'm with Val 100% on this one - I'd not want ANY dealings with someone like that nor my dog sullied by being associated with his "breeding"

Teri

Seriously having thought about it nor would I, but it would be funny to see his face if he were told to get DNA, Hip and Eye Tests and then just maybe she might consider allowing him after the payment of the full stud fee to register the litter.

Frankly the costs of the Health and DNA tests with Stud fee will mean he would rather sell them without registration.

Sadly this is not an unknown thing to happen re a dog being lured away to mate a bitch.

A coach firm up the road from me had their 10 year old GSD male stolenm and people saw a young man with large white dog making a fuss of him before he disappeared.  he was found a few days later but they think someone had used him on a bitch.

Hmm - think that this does happen in some areas, where people know who has got what dog, and what is behind it :(

About 10 years ago, my sister's lab dog (who was hip-scored, and who had been used at stud once) was in kennels whilst she was away.

Apparently, the daughter of someone who owned an in-season lab bitch "accidently" let him out of his kennel when she left work, he "must have followed her home" and mated with the bitch before the family could stop it :roll-eyes: !

My sister refused to sign any papers for the stud, refused any stud fee, because she had already said no to this family once before.  However the family told everyone that sister's dog was the sire and it was an "accidental" mating so no papers would be available - because of the stud, he sold every one of those puppies :(

Poor old Prince was used once more for stud (officially and planned ) - and then had the chop - sister was so mad at what had happened, that she was determined that it wouldn't happen again.   

Kennel owners were abject in their apologies - took responsibility for Prince having been released, and kennel maid was, obviously dismissed - caused quite a stir in their village for about 4 months!

Margot

I didn't mean really 'pushed' just that he might have been encouraged out of the garden!

OK I see what you are getting at now.  As I have already pointed out though, for anyone to get anywhere near the fence they would have had to enter the private drive and pass the living room window, and we didn't leave the living room at all and would have seen them.

Hmmmm,

I wonder if any of the stud dogs he's used on his bitches have ever been with the owners consent?
Being the bad person that I am ;) in this situation I would tell the bloke that the dog should not have been used for stud because of herpes virus, or some other similar s"x*&lly transmitted disease which he would then have to pay a fortune at the vets to find out whether the bitch had caught it or not ;) :)  But then I'm a very bad person and would be really angry about him using my dog like that.  I certainly would report him to both the Kennel club and the tax man ;) - it might put a stop to his activities.  But then I am a baaad person :)

Good idea Dill, but then again, he probably wouldnt even take the poor dog to the vets even with that as a posibility :( :(
Lea

I wasn't suggesting your friends dog wasn't loved either.

That's OK, it was just the way your post read :) now it's been clarified I can see what it was you did mean :)

I agree Lea :(  but he could still be hit in the pocket by the taxman and the kennel club should know of his activities - it's possible he's done this before ;)

This thread has been printed out for my friend who has read it with interest and taken on board a number of points made by the good people here.

She says thank you everyone for your comments, it has given her a great deal to think about.  She is very angry about this whole incident and wanted to see views of other people unrelated to the issue.

Would it be possible to update this thread on what action she takes?

My friend and her other half have now read all your comments, taking what has been said on board.  They have decided to just wait and see what happens.  If the man comes round asking for the dog's papers they are going to refuse to sign anything unless he can produce real evidence that their dog is the sire of any puppies.  If (which is extremely unlikely) he does get DNA evidence then they are going to only hand over copies of any papers in exchange for a realistic stud fee.

They are guessing that that will be the last they hear from him.

As they don't live all that far from him (about half a mile) they don't really want to start all out war 'naming and shaming' the man because they don't know who his friends are or what they may be capable of.  They are certainly going to try their best to report any information gained to the Kennel Club (as he has none of their information he can't name their dog and they don't have his details so can't name their dog).  As for the Inland Revenue ;) well ... some people involved in this story seem to work for them! ;)

They both wish to thank you all for your comments and help.

In my view your friend should secure the fencing around her property and otherwise forget about the whole incident. At least the dog got home safely.  Lesson learned - some intact males will do anything to get to a fertile female.  I understand that dogs can pick up the scent of a bitch in season that is miles away.  There is no proof that the dog actually mated with the bitch, or, that if the bitch becomes pregnant that he is the sire. 

The owner of the pregnant bitch is obviously a nutter and reasoning with anyone with a brain the size of a dried green pea is futile. 

Stacey

I'm afraid I would be very sneaky - pretend to go along with this mans wishes, gather as much info as I could - bitches names, numbers of litters etc. and then land him in it with the Revenue, council - whoever I could. Also as the radio station was so accommodating, they (and the loal paper) may be interested to put out the rest of the story - that would take the wind out of his sails!

I fully agree Stacey.  What is done is done etc. Move on.

I totally agree with Fillis,i wouldnt let him get away with this,i would make him regret the day he ever layed eyes on my dog!!

If you or other people he has done this to have constantly let him get away with it then he will continue doing it,as no-ones stopping him :(

Someone really needs to put a big spanner in his works!!

Ditto :)

I agree Stacey - you said pretty much what was said on the other forum - that and the fact that signing papers to say the mating had taken place would be dishonest, if not witnessed.