Has anybody ever had puppies with atresia ani(born with no anus) and rectovaginal fistula (no anus and all waste coming out via the vulva)I have recently  had  a  litter of pups and lost them,2 of the pups had the above abnormalities,the other 2 stopped feeding and appeared to have terrible gut pains.I have been told the abnormalities are genetic,but don't know where to start looking as to which dog carries the gene.The dog that sired the litter is well known and a Champion.None of my bitches have ever produced any pups like this.

Sorry, no knowledge of this, but I'm very sorry to hear of your loss. How tragic. :-(

As far as I have read these sorts of anomalies are often a result of something going wrong in the fetal development (3 1/2 to 5 weeks in whelp being critical) from outside causes.  I would check with the stud owner to see if they have had any other bitches produce abnormal pups but would be inc lined to put it down to bad luck and try again maybe with a defferent stud.

Thanks for that information,the puppies were line bred 3:3,I sent my bitches pedigree and the stud sog owner chose which dog to put her to.I will ask the stud dog owner about this when I manage to get hold of her,but is she going to admit to puppies out of her dog being born like this.A lot of things are swept under the carpet when a Champion dog has produced things!!!!

A lot of things are swept under the carpet when a Champion dog has produced things!!!!

Which is why it is soooo important to use a stud dog whose owner you can trust! They need to be experienced, knowledgable and honest.  The dog world is just the same as any other walk of life and contains all types of people.

I once had a litter where 3 of the pups had their intestines outside their body - absolutely horrid.  Never had anything like it before or since.  Afterwards I heard of another 2 litters with similat defects.

She is a friend of a friend and thought she was to be trusted.She owns one of the top show kennels in the country and has dogs abroad.Had the latest kennel club breed supplement yesterday and her dogs have sired 8 litters,2 of which are the same dog I used,it's a pity we can't get hold of the owners of those litters.
Can you tell me which breed you have,as I have friends that have had half a litter with the same as you had,once again from a well known stud dog and top show kennel!!!!!

I have Rough Collies.

Not the same breed,I have westies

I once reared a Bulldog litter where a pup was born with imperforated anus. It was pts.

There isn't much info on it but if it is a genetic condition it is most likely to carried by both parents.  If it was a simple dominant condition (from one parent only) one parent would have had to have been affected and so successfully operated on at birth which is possible I suppose but this dog would then pass it on to ~50% of its progeny.

If it is genetic and a simple recessive, both parents would be carriers but if the gene incidence is low in the breed, this could be the first one that the stud has produced.  Inbreeding does increase the chances of doubling up on recessives but, based on the info you have supplied, yours is low at 3.13 COI 3gen.  But, as you say, there could have been others!

Julie

I had the litter sister mated at the same time,she was put to another dog,her pups are line/in bred 5:3,her 3 pups are all normal.If the sire of the litter had a litter mate with this abnormality would he carry the faulty gene???

If this is a simple recessive, siblings of an affected would have a 66.6% chance of carrying the defect.

Siblings of carriers (as your second bitch would be) have a 50% chance of carrying.

Simple recessive is often the mode of inheritance of rare conditions like this but it's by no means certain.  May not be inherited at all.  Would be interested to know where the information came from that it is.

Julie

Suppose I'll never get to know how things came about!!!!

Sorry to hear about your pups problems

Why not contact Jeff Sampson (the KC geneticist) and see if it is worth having blood saved from your bitch and from the sire (and as many other relations as possible) to see if sometime in the future, if more or enough dogs are born with similar problems, someone might be willing to do some genetic research on the problem?

Hope that makes sense

I can understand what you are saying,but it needs an awful lot of co-operation from a lot of people,then there is the cost.If I could have my bitches tested and find out they are clear,maybe that will send me in some direction as to the sourse.If it is proved to be my bitches fault,then I will do the responsible thing and stop breeding.

There is such a thing as throwing out the baby with the bath water.  this may not be a genetic condition at all.  The best thing would be to contact the breeders of the dogs other litters, no reason why you can't they are bound to be members of the smae breed clubs that your are.  Are the registered litters smaller than you would expect (pointing to high infant mortality)?

I have a freind whose daughter was born with this condition.  Her husband is one of 9 children, and she is an only child but both her parents were from large Irish Catholic families (her mother one of 9 and her Dad one of 5). 

She has gone on to have 3 more perfectly ehatlthy children, and there has never been any such other children born in the very large extended family.

Lifield,

Do you have contact with other westie people/breeders? it may be worth asking if anyone has came across it.

I have to say I haven't and I have just asked a long established breeder if she had seen it before but hasn't either.

I would try and do a bit of research to see if it is likely to be genetic or trauma when in whelp.

Maybe someone will read it even with a different breed who has experienced it and can comment.

I can imagine it hasn't been easy for you but try not to look to hard for blame until you are sure what the cause is.
BFN

PS had a nosey around the net and nothing seems to be 100% genetic, trauma, or toxic exposure.

Other westie breeders that I know are asking around.
I have spoken to some one that had her first westie 46 years ago and been breeding for many years says she has never experienced it,her husband said he had heard of it,but the dogs with it didn't survive,(they wouldn't)I asked if suviving litter mates would carry the gene,she didin't know.

Very sorry to hear about your pups what a shame.

Warm Regards Susan.

I've now done a search on it and there doesn't appear to be any research on the inheritance of it in dogs.  There is usually something online if there has.  There is in cattle where it is said to be a recessive and autosomal (not sex linked) so my comments above would apply.  But a different story in pigs where it is said to have low penetrance indicating that they think it is a dominant (or that they don't really know :-)

What is found in one species often applies to others but that doesn't help much here as we already have two different modes but it does suggest that the condition has a genetic basis.  As others have said, the info needs to be recorded, a letter from the vet maybe, and stored with your breed club and DNA (parents, siblings and affecteds, if they happen to be deep frozen) stored for future research.

Julie

Seems to be more common in pigs on the net.. 

I think it is looking more like trauma just for the net reading.

It is very sad though.

I read a reply you sent to someone looking for a book on genetics,you mentioned Malcolm Willis.I know Malcolm Willis,do you think it is worth sending him an email??

Most definately, he is very easy to talk to, but I should think has a heavy correspondence load.  The fact that he is a practical dog breeder also helps with the application of theory often not easy. :D

Yes, agree with Brainless, he is very helpful.  There isn't anything in his book about it but there could very well be more recent stuff available that he knows about.

Julie

I have emailed Malcolm Willis,will have to wait and see if I get a reply.

I did the same and there seems to be evidence in ruminants that it can happen after examining for preganancy, i.e. trauma.

Hi
Had this in a litter of kittens some years back two of them and I felt terrible when we discovered as to why they seemed so uncomfortable one had no hole in his anus and the other one was a male and very difficult to see but he couldnt wee. The queen (cat talk) she had been in an accident when she must of been early into her pregnancy and as we didnt know she was pregnant she received treatment and drugs.
Also it has to be said if a vet isnt sure he will always say its more likely to be inherited.
As for breeders being more honest well among my breed we do have stud owners that will tell you Yes you can use him but you must be aware that there is a risk of cleft pallet and hare lip and they still go and use the stud it amazes me as you can never get rid of the problem if you carry on using the lines that carry it