Hi Frodo

>However,unfortunately you just had to look at this dog the wrong way<

On the contrary, I stated quite clearly that your post

>could be totally misinterpreted to suggest that as a child you grew up with a dog which had absolutely NO appropriate training and parents who were unconcerned about the potential dangers of such a dog around their child<

I didn't look at the dog nor your situation wrongly - I gave the dog, it's upbringing and your parental supervision the benefit of the doubt but merely pointed out how easy it is to jump to conclusions ;)
As to PN not providing the fuller picture at the beginning - true - but now that she has you, and a few others, are still going on about it ad nauseum :rolleyes:    Showing a little respect for other people is not difficult - is it 

Teri
 

I would say you are having a go at Poppynurse I don't see what else you call it when you say

>but then after recieving all of the negative replies you decided to dramatize the story a little bit further to perhaps justify why you put the dog to sleep

Are you a mind reader? Why take the worst possible conotation to it, why not just see that until all the negative comments PN may well have not seen any need to elaborate more, the comments certainly surprised as well as shocked me so I'm guessing it was the same for her. 

Hello folks
This topic has certainly become controversial. This is my final post on this topic.
Tomhe: you have expressed yourself with the calm manner of someone who has bred/kept dogs for a number of years. The points you raised are important and valid. One of the most important being the severity of bite being a critical factor for a decision.

Isabel: You had queried why I recounted my anecdotal story, the reason was to highlight the way we have such different yardsticks when considering offences committed by humans (literally condoning it) and dogs (sent straight to their deaths-capital punishment). With regard to your statement ".....we need to remember that their lives are not sacred only man was made in the image of God..." I personally believe ALL life is precious. Man is also the only animal who kills for fun/sport/convenience.

Poppynurse: I would like to apologise for calling you cruel. As I have mentioned I believe all life to be precious and euthanasia is something that should be reserved for extreme situations. We all have different thresholds and classify extreme based on it. Although I do not agree with it, I appreciate and understand the fact that you were placed in a position that you felt was extreme enough to decide to euthanise your dog.  With regard to your allegation of being judgemental... we are human as well and can be quite passionate about matters close to our hearts. As doctors, we do our level best to preserve life whether it is a 1yr old or a 90 yr old; we go to great lengths to try and ensure that they receive the very best possible care. With the exception of rare case like Shipman, euthanasia is something that would never even cross our minds, unlike in veterinary science where it is an option.  However that does not condone me calling you cruel and all I can say in my defence is that I have been working 16 hour shifts for the last 2 weeks and sometimes patience does wear thin at the end of a long day(I know its not a great excuse), please accept my apologies.  As a token of goodwill if you wish to have any plastic surgery for your daughter's disfigurement I can arrange for you to have it done at cost if you are willing to travel to Glasgow where my brother (a plastic surgeon) does some private work, mail me directly if you wish to take me up on it.

Susan: I am sorry the original post has gone off on a tangent and I am partly responsible. You have taken a brave decision and I wish you the best and hope you and your children get to enjoy many more happy years with your dogs.

regards
Yash

Hi Yash,

I've sent you a pm :) Click on "messages" top right hand corner of screen.

yashokumar, you talked about torturing animals in your anechdote, something I'm sure all here abhor not least PH, I don't think our yardsticks are at all different in that respect I think it is just our ability to seperate toruture and cruelty from painless uthanasia that an owner feels in the best course of action for their dog rather than pass it on to someone else, for the dog's sake as well as the families as the dog may not be treated so gently in the next home if something similar happened!

TBH, I'd be suprised if PN comes back - and I would hardly blame her.

Thanks for a sensible post poppynurse.
This is a dog, it bites children, children are at risk with this, their future looks are dependant on it not biting and they can easily become traumatized for life when it attacks next time.
No one stood up and shouted it was Rose West's childhood or Dr Shipman's parents fault-they were human killers end of story.
Only one person writing can see this dog clearly, poppynurse, and now me. Others are clearly seeing the dog as a soft little human baby. It is obvious that there is only one thing left to do.
The kids should be the priority, not the dog, in the case of Fred West, Shipman society at large was the priority, no one shouted don't jail them it's their childhood.
Frank, you know without posting here what you have to do, I think you posted here because you know these people do think clearly when it comes to dogs and your children could suffer enormously as a result. You know there is only one thing to do and that is PTS, this dog will never be safe.

I have been asked, have I no compassion. I cant have compassion for someone who has shown no compassion for another animal. This is supposed to be a dog lovers forum isnt it!?
There was another option that should have been tried before the dog was pts and it wasnt, no excuse for that at all.
Yes Giorgia is my first dog, my Husband has always been in a household with two dogs so he has had eight dogs as part of his family so he is experienced. We are a no children household, we dont have any children that we see as part of either sets of inlaws, and Giorgia is always on the lead until we are away from company even though she loves people and dogs. So it is possible to not come into contact with children and that dog should have been given another chance! Surely thee was someone somewhere with no kids and a large garden who could have taken him on
Funny how I am getting flack because I dare to say that putting a healthy dog down is wrong, but Poppynurse is receiving support from some sectors. Yet awhile ago when I disagreed with the main thread of a discussion about crates namely that I hate them, I was villified far more than Poppynurse. Something wrong here with some people's morals and principles.
Do you wanna be in my gang, my gang my gang! no thanks

Before you criticise somebody, walk a mile in their shoes.

My answer to any of your criticisms is, there was an alternative, can you not see that!

No, because I wasn't there!! What alternative are you offering? The chance of a place in rescue waiting for a home with the prospect of no children around - ever?! I have faith that PN did the right thing, and its VERY doubtful the vet would have PTS the dog without the full facts.

And I would NEVER criticise someone for making such a heartbreaking decision after the event when there is nothing they can do but defend themselves against folk who jump to conclusions and make assumptions. Its not going to bring the dog back - so beating PN up about it, publically, IS cruel IMO.

perhaps they'll and other people will think twice next time about the alternative. Whats wrong with rescues? Arnt they geared towards this kind of thing? Whats wrong with a childless home, one incident of biting a child doesnt meant the dog will bite every child it may meet. The vet argument doesnt sway with me I'm afraid, tell them a dog bit a child, however minor and they will put the dog to sleep.
I'm not jumping to conclusions or making assumptions. No alternative was sought and the dog was pts . My opinion that is cruel. I'm entitled to my opinion. I have learned from this forum if you cant stand the heat stay out of the kitchen! Also the forum is in the public domain so every post is public, dont understand your comments I'm afraid

Whatever. I am not interested in discussing this further with you.

"whatever" he he he, lol @ Chloe :-) it's getting like the Jerry Springer show :-D

Yes you are entitled to your opinion, Coleystaff, but why not just say what you would have done in the circumstances I don't see that you are entitled to be critical of someone who has chosen or would choose a different way.
I know the thread is getting a bit long :) but I think the option of rescue has already been discussed as to pros and cons and again there is no right or wrong answer.

<The kids should be the priority, not the dog, in the case of Fred West, Shipman society at large was the priority, no one shouted don't jail them it's their childhood. >

I cannot see where the mass muderers can be compared to a dog. Human mass murderers make a conscious decision to kill they do not do it as a reaction to pain & are always a risk to the population at large. Harold Shipman took his own life so his wife would get his NHS pension as his widow, Fred West took his own life because he could not face being in prison as a murderer

A dog that bites for whatever reason does not on the morning it bites consider what it is going to do & how it is going to do it. The dog that bit because if was hurt did not decide that when it was next hurt it would bite nor where nor how hard etc it would do so

Your reasoning would have had me PTS my GSD if he had bitten after being stabbed five times by an 8 year old boy armed with a Stanley Knife(now classed as offensive weapon), I had enough control(becuase he was manwork trained)to stop him, but even the most placid of dogs would have bitten if it had still been alive. We should protect children like this boy should we ? Sorry society including animals should be protected from children like these, interestingly this"child"went on to be violent towards human beings, exactly as the research now forecasts that he would. Sorry but the dog was being a dog/animal & responding to pain & did not deserve to lose it's life because the child was not supervised & stopped from hurting him.

I'll say again I am so glad my dogs not not subjected to unsupervised contact with the growing number of spoilt & undisplined children, who only have to watch a few of the naughty children programs on TV to see that not just dog owners need training but the majority of parents too. Parenting is a lesson that should be learnt before the off spring arrive

Colleystaff who on earth told you,you have no compassion?? :(  Did i miss a post?

Putting all of this aside,i really dont think there would be anything my dogs could do that would make me put them to sleep,there are ALWAYS options.

When i hear of dog attacks on the news or where ever,my first thought is the dogs owner,what are they like,how did they treat/train the dog etc. etc. I am a firm believer in there are no bad dogs,only bad owners. Usually there is always a reason why a dog attacked,it may not always be obviously provoked but there will most certainly be a reason. A kid once got attacked at a local park,there seemed to be no reason,provocation or anything,the dog just attacked! Later on it was revealed that the kid who got bitten was playing and screaming in a very high pitched tone,as they do ;) When this dog was a youngster it had been teased and kicked about by a young boy who screamed the whole time he was doing it.This kids screaming obviously set this dog off and brought back those vicious memories :( In instances such as these it is always a good idea to look deeper than whats on the surface :)

There are far too many dogs being put to sleep willy nilly nowadays,it's as easy as going out and buying a loaf of bread :( Euthanasia should be only utilised for a sick,terminal in pain dog.Not a healthy young dog who just acted on instinct,like i said earlier there are always options.
My views may not be popular or liked,but thats not going to stop me from voicing them,we each look at things differently from one another. I really try not to fall into the sheep mentality in fear of not being liked or set upon :)

Colleystaff you can join my gang if you want,but i'm the only member ;)

" am a firm believer in there are no bad dogs,only bad owners"

So Frodo you cannot entertain the idea that some dogs, like some people, can be born with mental illnesses or develop conditions/diseases that cannot be behaviourally modified.........?

There are NOT always options, unless of course you can cure a brain tumour, or mental illness!

Wide, sweeping and uninformed generalisations such as this cause a lot of pain to those who have explored every avenue to maintain their dogs, sometimes, unfortunately it is just not possible.

As you say, it is always a good idea to look deeper than what is on the surface...................

Wide, sweeping and uninformed generalisations such as this cause a lot of pain to those who have explored every avenue to maintain their dogs, sometimes, unfortunately it is just not possible.

Maybe ive just been lucky,but i have yet to meet a person with a problem dog that hasnt found an option other than euthanasia,i will only speak of my own personal experience,as in all things :)

I've never met a dog with a mental problem either,i've heard of cocker rage,but never actually met one.

Many dogs are mentally unsound due to earlier mistreatment, their very nature or lack of any socialisation as pups.  Many of these can never be turned around to be happy and reliable pets,a nd with some of the larger ones that could do a lot of damage the best course of action is to put the poor dog out of it's miserable existence.

Friends of mine used to groom dogs.  One of their clients dogs was a very neruotic cocker who was the unhappiest dog imaginable.  She shook and whined constantly.  they assumed that this was just when seperated from the owner of at the groomers.  Turned out that the dog was always like this in it's own little misery bubble, but the owners thought they were being kind keeping it alive.

What about the ones that are given to rescue to be put down after an assessment?

I always fel that giving the dog to resuce )passing on the problem) is the cowardly way out.  It is the dogs quality of life that matters not just life.

I agree. I was talking to a lady in Dane Rescue a couple of weeks ago - they had to put 5 dogs down last year. These were dangerous, headcase dogs that were nasty all the way through (her words!). What choice does anyone have with dogs like this, that are assessed by folk with years of experience, than to put them to sleep? For some, there is no hope, and they are better off out of it IMO.

I think from my point of view, a dog should be checked over by a vet before any decision, especially a decision made in haste, is made. I cannot forget the awful story of a GSD who attacked a child and was  immediately put to sleep. The owners loved and trusted the dog who had always been wonderful with the toddler and were deeply upset but felt they had made the correct decision. The postmortem discovered the child had somehow pushed a lead pencil right down deep inside the dog's eardrum, which must have been agony for the dog. The dog lost its life and the child was bitten because the parents left dog and child alone together unsupervised for just a few moments :(

I totally agree with Tohme about the level of bite inhibition or not; sometimes it simply may not be safe to keep a dog alive whatever its past history. It's a very sad fact that needs to be thought about. But equally, I do believe many dogs are teased too much by children, or are simply told off for growling to show discomfort and then resort to biting because they have no other defence from an inquisitive child. I also believe that some dogs can be found homes that will be sensible and will take care to not let any accidents happen - dogs can be taken out with muzzles etc in case. There may be more problems if the dog in question is large because it's more difficult generally to handle in the event of a crisis.

I've seen dogs being practically mauled by children with parents looking on dotingly and I'm sure I'm not the only one. MOst parents are much more sensible and do supervise and are careful . Just wish more were like that :)

Lindsay
X

thank you Lindsay for your very eloquent and tactful way of putting your opinion across. I wholeheartedly agree!

Frodo - your belief that there are no bad dogs only bad owners is, thankfully, not shared by everyone.  Speaking from experience I am convinced that a lot of 'mental' disorders are caused by reactions to vaccinations.  Blaming the owners would be a bit like blaming the parents of an autistic child for its condition, especially if they believed it had been caused by a vaccine.

Coleystaff,

>Something wrong here with some people's morals and principles.Do you wanna be in my gang, my gang my gang! no thanks<

You are as entitled to your views and opinions as anyone else on this matter but why the need to be so antagonistic and downright rude?
By your own admission you have the experience of owning all of one dog and have no children of your own - no disrespect intended but you've clearly never had to go through the heartbreak and guilt of having to pts a much loved dog due to severe illness for eg. so can't begin to imagine how much soul searching PN or anyone in a similar position would go through before taking such a decision nor how hellish she probably felt for years after it :(   Not being a mother nor having much contact with children you have never experienced the acuteness of maternal instinct - believe me, it is an underestimation to describe that as overwhelming.  I defy anyone to love dogs more than me - although millions will love theirs equally well - and I can't foresee a situation where I would pts a healthy dog without exploring every other avenue - but then my daughter is now in her 20's ......

How am I being antagonistic by saying it is cruel to put a dog to sleep when no alternative has been sought. That is all I have maintained from the beginning and I havent been rude at all. I have only answered the posts that have been thrown at me. No I have only had one dog but have had 3 horses, 10 cats and 3 hamsters and 2 rabbits through my life of forty years . The cats bar one that was run over lived until old age.Two were put two sleep because they could not walk and were dying and the others succumbed at their own pace, one hamster had a tumour that was coming out of his stomach and was dying in front of me and so he was pts. So I have been there and cried and buried them in the garden and still talk to the ones who are out my garden. So I love all animals not just dogs and no I dont have children but what has that got to do with having a dog. If I had said dont have dogs if you have children just in case they bite the child, or if you have a dog before the child then the dog comes first, then I would sound like an anti- children person but I said none of those things. All I said was give the dog a chance rather than have him put down on the first occasion of biting.
I have had lots of contact with children in the past because my sister's two were brought up with me when I was a child as their Dad was in the army and we were close in age . My Mother was one of 6 and we lived within a couple of streets of each other and we were brought up to be a very close Family together in Italy and used to spend all our time together as kids all 10 of us cousins. Now that I live here and we have grown up, neither my Nephew or Niece have children then we dont have that much contact with children.

Coleystaff, please read what I actually posted ;)

>Something wrong here with some people's morals and principles. Do you wanna be in my gang, my gang my gang! no thanks<

IMO you were being antagonistic and rude in the above sentence - as I previously highlighted.

You have made it perfectly clear, repeatedly, how you feel on this subject and it is obvious that you regard any opinion differing from your own as both unwelcome and unreasonable - fortunately that is not a view embraced by the mainstream on the forum.  It is an "information exchange" not an excuse for a slanging match or for character assassination based on nothing more than alternative views on how best to deal with any given situation or circumstance.

As you appear to see everything in black and white, I sincerely hope that you never hit a "grey" period as you will be totally unprepared for how best to deal with it.
Best wishes, Teri

Teri
The people who have disagreed with me have only seen the black and white issues as well.
My only argument is that that dog was not given an alternative, that is the main problem I have. We are led to believe there was only one incident so surely he deservded another chance
I replied with the issue of an alternative as being try a rescue. That is part of their function.
I replied to the dog owner family without children issue as saying we are a childless family and are able to avoid children with our Staff if we wish. So there are some out there
I replied to the lack of experience with children issue by giving a brief family history including lots of children
I replied to the inexperienced animal owner issue with a brief animal owner history including lots of animals
I have also been married twice,second time very happily  moved house 8 times, lost both parents all before my mid thirties so life hasnt always been black and white and so I have had circumstances where the answers havent been black and white but very grey so I can cope.

teri
My childish comment was directed at the gang mentality on this forum, hence my sarcy comment. A few people have left because they werent part of the clique and I did for a few days but got annoyed at myself for allowing faceless names to force me off. So I'm here again. I wont apologise for the people's morals and principles comment I'm afraid. As I have already said that was because of the attitude of some when I disagreed with the crate issue. I received more vitriolic responses then than Poppynurse has now.Putting a dog to sleep is a moral issue, daring to disagree with all but one poster of a thread is not but I was innudated with negative replies.

Well, we haven't seen PN since, so its clearly not just this alleged "clique" that manages to drive folk away :)

I said if you cant stand the heat stay out of the kitchen! Lets hope this has made people think twice about rehoming first before anythingelse

:rolleyes:

Hi Coleystaff ;)  I nearly - *very, very nearly* - left this alone, but hey, I remember that thread well :P
For the record, this forum is not nearly as cliquish as a very small number maintain.  I can say that as one who has often entered into *lively exchanges* with others and found that I sometimes hold a similar view and equally can hold a totally opposing one with exactly the same people but on different topics :)

On quickly scanning some of your comments and replies on the big bad cage dispute, I don't think your recollection of how you were responded to is entirely accurate - nothing remotely "vitriolic" that I could see, although understandably your assertions that cages were cruel upset a lot of dyed in the wool, experienced and highly respected dog people and breeders who IMO quite naturally took umbrage to the suggestion that they would ill treat their much loved dogs by using a "cruel" device ......

As for the topic under this thread - I think it's fair to say that those who have attempted to show a little understanding towards PN have done their level best to hopefully prevent her from feeling guilty or bullied - to not have done so would, IMO, be cliquish and cruel.  Regards, Teri ;)

I think it's fair to say that those who have attempted to show a little understanding towards PN have done their level best to hopefully prevent her from feeling guilty or bullied -

But it's allright for them to do it to colleystaff?

'They' are trying to make colleystaff feel guilty for stating her opinion of PN,and when there's more than one on the go it comes accross as being bullied Seeing i'm neither 'giving' it nor 'taking' it,i'm just giving my perspective of an outsider looking in ;)

I dont mean to be argumentative,i also very,very nearly left this thread alone,but your comment was just too ironic to let slide. Not having a go at you at all Teri,your'e another one who has the gift of diplomacy and eloquence :)

It seems everyone feels sorry for PN,but i feel sorry for colleystaff,she stated her opinion which as i do,obviously feels very passionate about and she's being vilified for it and yet PN put a dog down because it nipped at her child and she's being stuck up for

Right, now i definately will leave this thread alone,unless i'm pulled up for my above comments ;)

>But it's allright for them to do it to colleystaff?<

Who's "them" ?    Some people, individually, have disagreed with what option PN elected to take in a specific set of circumstances that only she and her family will ever know the entire ins and outs about.  Equally,  some people - individually - have been offended by the tone used.

This forum is one of dog lovers but as all sensible owners are or should be aware, there are HUGE responsibilities in ownership - both to the dog and to others the dog will come across throughout it's lifetime.  As for me, personally, I'm grateful that my child was never bitten by any of my dogs and had she been I hope that whatever decision I took at the time was the best one based on the intricate and complex possibilities of how the situation could have come about. 

My own instinct was to leave this thread alone and I would have been happy to do so had the initial remarks whether for or against been one-off's but some people have come back again and again going over old ground about an incident which - obviously - is completely irreversible anyway :rolleyes:  THAT is what I call bullying :( regards, Teri    

If you look a little closer at the post, I know there are a lot of them know ;), you will see that both Teri and I, and there may be others, have both said that Coleystaff is entitled to her opinion as to what should have happened and should feel free to state it here and no one has suggested she should feel guilty, infact I am puzzled as to why you have stressed the word The only issue is with the language used to condemn PN for taking a different opinion.
I don't believe she has been bullied either, she has commented on cliques but I think you only have to read threads across the variety of boards to see that the people who may be of the same opinion here often share different opinions on other subjects :D  The only thing we have in common is that although we will often ask people to give a rationale for their opinion we never say they are not entitled to them and we, by and large ;) uphold the decency of not using personal insults and certainly not accusing the other of holding a different opinion because they care less for their dogs or dogs in general.

I had a number of private messages from people who felt that the way I was responded to was unacceptable just for daring to disagree with the majority and that they felt intimidated by the replies I received and that made them reticent to enter into the discussion. So I wasnt the only poster who felt the responses were over the top. I have never said that these experienced dog owners treat their dogs cruelly, I'm sure most dont but a crate or cage is cruel to me.

I was questioned because my Staff's not a chewer and the usual old chestnut about not being an experienced owner which to some people seems to always justify that their opinion is right and I am wrong. One rebuttal concerned using a lead and collar, duh!! what has that got to do with a crate !

This was one response from Tohme as regards my opinion on crates

Does that mean you never have to put a baby/toddler in a playpen to make sure it never damages itself?

You can totally puppy/baby proof your home so that if you have to leave it to, god forbid, have a shower, go to the loo, hang up the washing, you can relax knowing that NO HARM CAN BEFALL THEM...............?????????????????

One does not necessarily use a crate INSTEAD of spending more time with it but because one actually has a life..................

seems a bit over the top,
this time I have been questioned because of my lack of children, lack of dog experience.
I dont do that to any poster. I express an opinion but dont query the poster's home life, their background , their experience with dogs. That is what annoys me I dont get personal but people get personal with me, then I'm criticised for answering back

Hey, wait - you've lost me
Tohme's remarks seem pretty OK to me :P  I don't want to be condescending AT ALL - not my style, BUT sometimes length of experience in certain areas does count for something and references to same are not necessarily intended to be "personal".
As to your comment re. being questioned about lack of children, you mentioned voluntarily that you had none and, because of that, I attempted to suggest that perhaps if you were personally aware of the strength of emotion of maternal instinct you MAY look slightly differently at dog biting child scenarios.  It was not a remark or statement intended to "query your home life or background" and if taken that way was obviously poorly worded for which I apologise ;)
Please try to be less defensive   - we can agree to disagree without anyone's feelings being hurt.
regards Teri :)
 

Hi Teri
I think it was the way it was written with all the italics and punctuation that annoyed me .
I am sorry but I cant see how experience in this issue would make a difference. I just cannot understand why the dog wasnt given a second chance . I have said this before I know, but I quoted myself as being childless and not having much contact with children in answer to the opinion that it wasnt  possible to keep a dog away from children. I thought I was proving this school of thought wrong and that showing by minimising contact with children that the dog might have had an alternative life to death. Also if a dog bites once does it always mean it will do it again