Thanks Tigerlilly i just hope it doesn't happen again, we're all going through some training.

Regards Susan

Hi Susan

I think you are very brave and deserve a lot of respect for giving things a go, good luck with it and remember any help needed just post away :)

Kelly

Glad to hear that Charlie is staying with you. I'm sure you will do everything possible to avoid similar problems in the future.
It's just as well I'm not a dog breeder.  I wouldn't let any families with children under 12 have a pup and I would make child free couples sign an undertaking not to reproduce :) :)

Thanks Kelly i will do.

Warm regards Susan

Poppynurse said <<Please don't jump on me everybody!!!!!!
You say this dog growls at children, has bitten a child before and it is not just a nip or bite but the dog was actually ragging the childs arm...I would suggest this dog should be PTS, even if rehomed away from children, what about out on walks, visitors to the house etc.....

My daughter was bitten by my dog, and he didn't rag her but bit her because she pulled his tail (I had the dog for four years, from eight weeks old and daughter was two at the time).....there was no question in my mind other than PTS, I do know how awful it feels because I've been there, but I was not prepared to rehome him in case it happened to someone else's child, and his temperament had previously been excellent.
To me the safety of children is paramount and a dog that is a risk to children should be PTS....... >>

What a load of absolute poppycock!!  That poor dog :(  And your poor child - she learns that either 1) she does something nasty on the spure of the moment and the dog she loves is killed, or 2) she learns that to get rid of something she doesn't like, she just has to be very nasty to it!

Even if a dog doesn't like children (unlike your dog), they are many homes where a dog will never be in a position to bite a child - mine, for example.

Susan
My sympathies at the situation that you are in, but it is best to get your dog rehomed.
"Poppynurse" I am appalled at your cruelty. people like you should not keep a dog. In the first instance you have failed to train your dog, because a dog is a pack animal and as long as it is trained to appreciate that all humans are above the pecking order all will be fine. Secondly your impulsive decsion to kill the the dog was more of a revengeful act than your desire to protect your child. The only living thing (not  even your children do it) that adores you and loves you completely and unconditionally is a dog. Frankly I don't think you should keep any pets ever.
I am glad that at least people like "Frank" have the the heart and decency to do the right thing and pass on the dog to people who are better placed to take care of it.
Yash

Sorry Susan for calling your "Frank" just noted your name but was quite upset that people actually allowed somone like the poppynurse lass to have a dog which was treated like an accessory that I ended up using your sign in name.

Thats okay Yash i can see why you would get confused, i can't part with the dog, i'm afraid i did think about it but just couldn't follow through, i did contact the Westie rescue and when they phoned reality hit home and i said no.  I did have a lengthy chat with the woman and she gave me some very useful advice and recommend a very good book for me to read, so hopefully this wont be happening again.

Warm regards Susan.

I think you are being very hard on Poppynurse, we were not there to see the severity of the attack.  I am sure I have never owned a dog that would have turned on a child and bitten even if its tail was pulled so if it had happened to me I am not sure what course of action I would have taken but perhaps it would have been the same as Poppynurse as I am not sure I could have ever trusted such a dog again and living with the posibility that another child could perhaps be facially disfigured, or worse, if I passed the dog on is not something I would take lightly.  It all depends on so many factors that I don't think we can critise anyones decision unless we face exactly the same set of circumstances.
I don't think it is fair to say it was lack of training as this is a temperament thing, I have had some unruly dogs in the past but never one I would expect to bite a child.  Nor is supervision necessarily lacking as this sort of thing can happen in the space of a second long before someone could intervene.  A 2 year old child cannot be held responsible either.  Personally I would never let a puppy go to a family with children under 8 but lots of breeders do so I do not feel anyone who feels dogs and young children should be mixed is in a position to critise Poppynurse if things go wrong.  I don't think the acusation that this was to punish the dog is really worth dealing with!

Thank you Isabel!
My daughter was facially disfigured in this accident - how could I possibly have trusted the dog after that? And having Joe PTS was the hardest decision I've ever made - it was not done on impulse or as 'revenge'.
I gave an opinion on the dog that was posted about which patently dislikes and bites children regularly............as this is a public forum I thought I would offer an alternative viewpoint - I do not appreciate being called cruel - I love my dogs, but I will not have children put at risk.  I knew some folk would disagree but I did not expect a such a personal attack and found it very upsetting :(

I too agree that this particvular dog dislikes children as it was tormented in the past, so is not likely to ever be forgiving of any perceived threat.  It would be best homed without children or managed in such a way that situations of this sort cannot arise.

Frank feels that she can ensure that both dog and children are kept sae from harming each other so that is the case.

Sadly sometimes dogs will ahve their tempereaments ruined by mishandling and have to be Put To Sleep, even if had they been brought up differently or not had bad expereinces they would have been delightful.  In other cases dogs who have known terrible cruelty seem to be able to trust implicitly again.

poppynurse I am passionate about dogs and hate to see anyone not treating them well. If you are stepped on or elbowed you can push the person away, a dog has no hands and has only its mouth to use. They rarely do more than nip if any pack member is out of order.

I am sorry to hear that your daughter was hurt and can sympathise with you. However you played God by becoming judge, juror and hangman and sentenced your dog of 4 years to death for 1 incident. There are plenty of homes where there are no kids who would be delighted to take a dog on. No one would dream of asking you to keep the dog but you definitely had an option to rehome the dog disclosing all material facts and a suitable home would have been found.

Sometimes I wonder what values parents teach and though it may not seem totally relevant and has no reference to anyone is one I would like to share with you.

I am a doctor and have seen a few patients coming into A&E injured by teenagers for fun. A few months ago I had a case of a homeless chap who was kicked and punched by a group of teenagers for the sport of it. He had broken ribs and ruptured spleen (organs inside the body were bleeding) amongst the many injuries he sustained. None of the kids got anything more than a lecture and a rap on the knuckles for it! two of those kids (it was mixed with both girls and boys) had previously had an encounter with the cops because they had chopped the legs of the dog and watched it bleed to death, the dog was the lads family dog!! They started with animals and moved on to humans and goodness where they will stop. Values imbibed from their parents perhaps......( please note that I am in no way implying that anyone here is like that, all I am doing is highlighting what could happen if kids are taught wrong values... how we treat our pets reflects in part how we treat other humans as well)

I'm afraid I don't see the relevance of your story at all.  Are you suggesting that Poppynurse is likely to condone this sort of behaviour because she chose to put the dog to sleep rather than risk passing the problem on?   Clearly that would be nonsense Poppynurse did not do a cruel thing, the dog would not have suffered at all when it was PTS that is a million miles from torturing it.  I have no doubt at all that the experience was far more painful for her than the dog.  I think to talk of playing God is also off course, we take a similar decision when we choose to have a dog put to sleep to save it from suffering a illness or injury.  Maybe you are confusing your Doctor's ethics with the treatment of animals.  While we have a duty of care for them if you are going to talk of God we need to remember that their lives are not sacred only man was made in the image of God. 

I am afraid that I must disagree with you here.  Poppynurse had the right to choose the course of action she had, it was her dog.  I agree that I would not have acted this way when the dog biting was provoked, and still feel this is where we must all be so careful to ensure that a dog is not put in the position of having to pay for something it does due to provocation.

I mwarn all potetial puppy owners who ahve kids or are likely to have kids visit that it is their responsibility to ensure the dog is protected from having to react in a way that might cause it's death.

I do not beleive in passing on problem dogs the buck should stop with the owner or breeder.  In fact in the USA any dog that has bitten will not be rehomed due to the implications to rescue should it bite in future.

I thought doctors were supposed to be non-judgemental - yet you judge me without knowing me or the facts of the situation.......hope you don't treat your patients this way!

I think Poppynurse's post where she explianed the situation in more detail has also been over looked the child accidentally pulled the dogs tail as a reflex action to falling not in an abusive way to torment the dog. Such a  sad accident which I'm sure Poppynurse wishes had never happened. JMHO

It is the severity of the bite, not the frequency that needs to be considered when looking at options with dogs.  A dog may only bite on one occasion but the consequences or potential consequences be so severe that no further opportunities can be considered; whereas other dogs may frequently bite but with little result.

Sadly some dogs are just not suitable for ANY home, although thankfully they are few and far between such dogs, sadly, do exist, probably for far longer than they should,

Yashokumar some of have had to make a very difficult decision for the benefit of both the dog and others as it is the responsible thing to do regardless of our own emotional ties to the dog.

by putting a dog to sleep who was not given any other option , it does make you cruel I'm afraid and you may find that a personal statement but you owned the dog first, your child came later. This at least means you did have some responsibilty towards your dog even if your main responsibilty is towards your child. You should not  have 'killed' him (sorry pts) because it was the easiest option for you, you owed him an alternative first.

I can't believe I am reading this - can you not show some compassion? Whats the point in making the poster feel worse about a decision that I doubt was taken lightly? And, clearly the vet agreed with her it was the right thing to do - so does that make them cruel aswell?

I think it highly unlikely it was the easiest option.  The easiest, and even cheapest! option would be to take it to the local rescue and give a false history but clearly Poppynurse is a person of integrity able to face up to a very difficult decision.  Personally I don't believe there are any right decisions to a situation like this there is only the fact that a decision has to be made and I don't think anyone has the right to critise another for whatever course they choose to take.

The easiest, and even cheapest! option would be to take it to the local rescue and give a false history
I agree Isabel - it happens all the time!!:(

Poppynurse, I consider your actions to be difficult, uncomfortable, but completely responsible.  Even homes who do not have children could never guarantee that the dog would never come into contact with someone else's child.  There are plenty of dogs in rescue who have not bitten.  I can assure those who think differently that, having worked for many years in rescue, there are NEVER any calls saying "I'd like to give a home to a dog that nobody else wants, preferably one that has bitten a child!"  Those rescues who do take such dogs, if they are told the truth, mark these dogs accordingly.  Then a kind and well meaning person is emotionally touched and decides to give the dog another chance.  I used to groom 2 who were rehomed in such circumstances by a large rescue in my area.  Both these dogs were pts, after much anguish, and other incidents, within 6 months! :(

for the same reason that there are plenty of lovely natured dogs in need of homes I find it wrong that large litters are reared when a bitch is found in whelp in rescue.

That is why our rescue either has the bitch spayed if it is early enough or has the puppies PTS at birth ,GSD x another breed or non breed were the father is not known & no health tests on the parents are not suitable for pet homes & of course any incidence that occurs comes back to the rescue, thank goodness the last time this happened was over 8 years ago

Coleystaff, you are lucky, you have a dog for the first time and have never had to face difficult situations like this as some of us have.  I hope that if and when you do you are met with more compassion than you have extended to others.

It is easy to be judgemental when you have never had to face dilemmas like this and there are no easy answers as each dog and its environement/triggers etc are different.

When one has a dog that is potentially dangerous one has a responsibility to that dog never to allow it to be put in such a position again, a responsibility quite often to the breed and its reputation, a responsibility to ones own family and a responsibility for the safety of others.

Sometimes it pays to think in certain circumstances, "there but for the grace............."

My daughter walked into my freinds conservatoruy while we were chatting and was told to leave their cross terrier sophie alone as she was in her bed (she was 3 at the time) next thing we knew she had bent over the sleeping dog and cuddled her hard.  the dog nipped in startlement, and yes he caught her cheek and it has scarred, and the neigbour said he would have her PTS if I asked it, it was not the dogs fault but mine.  She never ever bit anyone again, including my daughter who was much more repectful to animals after this.

I think most people took from PN's post that the bite was not serious as she said he didn't rag her child just bit, or words to that effect.

A general point - not just to Brainless :)

Why is it that people always say that the child should be taught to stay away from the dog, and yet the child in some cases is only 2 years old and has a limited understanding of what he or she is being told IMO? Does a child of 2 even understand "do that and you will get bitten?" Why is it the dog is apparently allowed to get away with anything "in defence" yet the child is not awarded the same allowances - in the case of the child falling and accidentally grabbing the dogs tail??

IMO it is a balance of BOTH. A good natured and even tempered dog should not snap at a child accidentally falling on him or her - unless the dog is badly hurt or already ill with an ear infection etc. I can understand a tormented dog snapping, but an accidental fall and tug on a tail is NOT worthy of a bite to the face resulting in a disfigurement.

Poppynurse - I think you have been very brave telling your story and I think it is VERY wrong for some folk to judge when they are not in full possession of the facts, and were not there at the time. Whats done is done and you should be confident in your decision IMO - it was the only one to make.

Very true - children of that age don't have the understanding to know right from wrong - which is where adult watchfulness is essential. :) Equally, neither do dogs have the capacity of understanding 'right' and 'wrong' - they react instinctively, and can't be blamed for that either. A dog can't be expected to understand "Accept being startled and possibly being caused pain or you'll be killed".

This is a problem that people have found with deaf dogs - they can't hear warning sounds and are much more easily startled into reacting defensively. :(

No, but a dog can have the tolerance and temper with which to cope with being startled - if it happens.

If you fell on Willis from a great height he would lick you to death and possibly raise an eyebrow - but, as it happens, he and Phoebe have their own space with which to retire to so they DON'T get startled, tripped over, or trodden on :) Prevention is far better than cure.

>Prevention is far better than cure.

Absolutely right. :) This is where the adult takes the responsibility.
:)

Yep.

But what I guess I am saying is that there are bad dogs aswell as bad children and in some cases a dog would be better PTS - and that is the owners decision, and they should not be vilified for it - especially as whats done is done.

True.

Entirely agree with you here.  It is the parent owner who needs to manage the situation.  Also the breed of dog will also affect the reactions it will have.  Terriers are designed to have lightening fast defensive reflexes, and as such are often cllled ankle biters as that is how many do react.  Some of the herding breeds are also very reactive.

On the other hand some breeds are much less sensitive and can take barely noticing clumsy handling, my own second breed basically fall into this category and seem to have a natural affinity and tolerance of very young children, but my first breed would not have felt comfortable with many situations that the current dogs not only tolerate but enjoy.

I also agree that the severtity of the incident or retailatory bite is significant in assessing future safety and happiness for both dog and owner.

I have personal expereince of a dog being mishandled in such a way that it disliked men intensely and became unreliable first with strange men and then men in general, this dog was put to sleep at 3 1/2 in it's new home as it wasn't reliable or happy.

I agree with ChloeH I don't think a dog should react to a small children falling and grabbing it's tail like this.  A good tempered dog's reaction would be merely to pull away and perhaps people with children should restrict themselves to breeds that are at least likely to react in that way.  I wonder how those who think it is lack of supervision would have prevented this accident as the only way I could see is to never allow the child any proximity to the dog either supervised or not, not very feasable in the average home, I suspect, which is why I never let my puppies go to homes with young children.  I hope that they will meet children and I hope that they would react in the way that I plan their breeding for and not snap at the child but at least if they are not living with a child the opportunities for accidents to happen are much reduced.

Remember, in Poppynurse's first post about this all the information given was

>he didn't rag her but bit her because she pulled his tail

No mention that the child was falling, no mention that her face has been disfigured ...

I think it was perfectly reasonable for people to reach the conclusion they did - that the toddler was teasing the dog and the dog defended itself and bit (the child's arm? leg?). Many people come on here and proudly say that their dog lets 'the kids' pull him around and sit on him etc etc, whereas they should be ashamed that they allow the children to do these things. It could easily have been a normal thing for the child to pull the dog's tail ...

Or, of course, Poppynurse could have been asked to expand on the info before anyone jumped to any conclusions ;)

People have referred to parental supervision and responsibility after Poppynurse provided full details of the accident and it became clear that no amount of supervision would have avoided it. 

Cloe H I only responded to the original post about a oneoff bite after provocation, but agreed that the PN had every right to act as she did, and when she explained the incident more fully I can understand her not wanting to take any more risks, but most people are refering to a single bite as being unacceptable and reason to PTS based on first post.

I don't think that a dog should be kept alive at all costs when it is temperamentally unsound, too ill for treatment or possibly dangerous.

I can understand all the confusion but poppynurse knew her own dog and she made the best decision for that dog, if i thought Charlie was dangerous i would do the same, and it's not all terriers who are ankle biters, Luicy my other Westie will tolerate anything that comes her way and would never ever bite, when she gets fed up she just walks away.  The situation and surroundings and contributing factors all have to be taken into account before deciding what the future holds for that dog, many people believe even myself that no matter what circumstances the dog is put under it shouldn't bite humans as i know Charlie and what has happened to him i can understand where he is coming from but under the circumstances there wont be anymore  chances.  As for dogs not being allowed to go to homes with children, many adults are cruel to dogs.

It is a shame that the focus is generally on the fallout rather than preventative training.  It is simple to train any dog to raise its threshold of handling and teach it to accept collar grabbing, tail pulling etc so that the consequences of accidental falls etc can be minimised; it is just an extension of bite inhibition and something I do with all my dogs from puppy hood and get them used to less than perfect handling so they do not take instant umbrage.

I think that is a very valid point. Its important to pick the right breed, the right pup and the right training to suit all the members of the household - big and small!

'instant umbrage' - good phrase Tohme, I like it :)

Hu Frank, as I said (typos included) some terriers can be reactive and more inclined to nip than the avergae gundog say. "Terriers are designed to have lightening fast defensive reflexes, and as such are often cllled ankle biters as that is how many do react. " :D  there are of course pelenty that are pretty easy going and more tolerant.

I'll put it this way,i still have a few scars,one right near my eye from where our doxi had more than a few nips at me when i was a kid,she didnt like anyone going 10 feet near when she had a bone,infact there were ALOT of things she didnt like us doing! She died of old age at 15,none of us would have had it any other way :)

Poppynurse please correct me if i'm wrong :) In your first post you wrote that your daughter simply pulled your dogs tail,but then after recieving all of the negative replies you decided to dramatize the story a little bit further to perhaps justify why you put the dog to sleep,i really dont understand why you omitted these vital parts of your story in your first post??Because as you saw, as soon as you added the "accidental fall" etc.in your second post,some time later and then even later,the facial disfigurment bit, some posters tunes changed toward you,i probaly would have done the same thing if i were made to feel as you were!

I guess the moral of the story is to put the shoe on the other foot

Hi Frodo,
I've stayed out of this up until now but PN is taking a battering from a few folk here and it's going too far. I think Chloe, Isabel and Tohme's later posts sum it up pretty well

> i still have a few scars,one right near my eye from where our doxi had more than a few nips at me when i was a kid,she didnt like anyone going 10 feet near when she had a bone,infact there were ALOT of things she didnt like us doing! She died of old age at 15,none of us would have had it any other way<

The above could be totally misinterpreted to suggest that as a child you grew up with a dog which had absolutely NO appropriate training and parents who were unconcerned about the potential dangers of such a dog around their child :(  Everything else aside, Social Services would be likely to be sent in on that basis nowadays!  I'm sure this is an exagerrated comment - see how easy it is to do?  Initially PN didn't really require to expand on what caused her to take the action she did it was only because of the antagonism she was pushed to relive what was no doubt at the time a very upsetting decision.  Please try and not be so judgemental.  There but for the grace of God ....  Teri ;)

Touche' teri ;)

However,unfortunately you just had to look at this dog the wrong way and you got it,my parents did warn me not to go near her in certain situations but there were times that i did and thats wheni got one,not always,but sometimes,i had the same respect for animals back then,that i do now :) I was never one to hurt or annoy an animal,i used to rescue/steal the pets from the kids in my street houses if they used to tease them or hurt them and take them back to my house,which happened frightingly regularly :(

I'm not having a go at poppynurse,it's just that had she not omitted the most important details IMO in her initial post,than this thread would have gone in a very different way i would think,dont you agree? :)

When I was a child, I am ashamed to say that I used to tease our Pekinese dog Bernie - the result of this, and after many weeks of teasing, Bernie finally retaliated, and scratched down my face with his paw, causing a deep cut and consequent scar that you can still see today.

My parents did not see this incident happen as I always used to tease poor old Bernie where they couldn't see me, and on the few occasions  they did catch me, I just stopped when told.  I knew it was wrong, but still did it when Mum and Dad weren't looking.  I used to pull his whiskers, and then when he went for me whip my hand away sharpish so he missed.  I am so grateful that Bernie finally found his mark and stopped me in my tracks. 

My parents reaction to a screaming child (I think I was 7 or 8 at the time) claiming that Bernie had attacked her, was to reprimand me for teasing the dog in the first place.

My actions as a child still haunt me to this day.  Over 40 years later, I am in tears writing this, as I cannot believe I was so hateful.  I love all animals so much and I will forever be grateful for Bernie for putting me on the correct path. 

Thank you so much Bernie, and If I see you "later on" I hope you can forgive me.

Don't worry, Vicki, dogs are much nicer than people; they don't hold grudges. I reckon if we're honest we can all remember many incidents where our treatment of our dogs has been wrong, either by accident or design. I'm certainly not going to throw the first stone! Don't carry on beating yourself up for this. You were being a child. Children can unwittingly be very unkind when they don't mean to be nasty, just to wind someone or something up. Behavioural analysis comes with maturity. Good for Bernie - he taught you a valuable lesson!

When I was 5 we had a family mongrel who was taught that people were nice and weren't going to take his food - I was encouraged to feed him and he became a very tolerant dog. My aunt's dog hadn't been taught this, and when we stayed with them I went to Buster and stroked him while he was eating. The resulting scar on my face took many years to fade. But there was no question that Buster would be destroyed for not being properly trained.

Thanks JG

But there was no question that Buster would be destroyed for not being properly trained.

JG was Buster destroyed,or not?

No, he wasn't. My aunt later adopted two children who grew up with him, and he never bit again.