Please note, this is not the thread in which to discuss that you think that Ecollars are inhumane or cruel or that you think they shouldn't be used or any other such topic. This is the real world and people are going to use these tools whether or not others like them or don't like them. At this time I think the best course of action is to educate people. The only purpose of this thread is to discuss how the tool is used.  Many people don't want to read articles about Ecollars but that doesn't mean that that the information shouldn't be available.  Many people have tried to suppress these articles but Admin has said nothing to me about not posting them any more.  I'll assume that freedom of speech is as important in the UK as it is in the US. 

You want to work the dog at the lowest level of stimulation that he can just perceive. Put the dog on a leash and take him outside. Let him settle down so he's not fixated on anything or highly distracted by anything. With some dogs it may take a few minutes for him to settle down. If he's sniffing the ground, he's distracted. If he's looking at something and his ears are standing up (for dogs whose ears do this) he's distracted. When his ears relax and stick out to the side rather than straight up, you're ready to check his level.

Set your Ecollar on it's lowest possible setting. (Note: some models aren't suitable for this because they don't have a low enough setting or they have too few settings.) To be used in my method an Ecollar must have at least 15 levels of continuous stim available. Press the continuous button quickly three times. If the dog shows some sign that he feels the stim, you're done. Most likely he won't. turn it up one level. If you're using a Dogtra move the dial the smallest amount that you can; increments of 1/16" (~1mm), if possible. Press the button quickly three times again. Continue to increase the stim level slowly until you get a reaction from the dog.

There are many such signs. One of the most common is that the dog will sit down and scratch as if a flea is biting him. Some signs are subtler than that though. They include an ear flick, a quick look at the ground directly in front of the dog, a pulling back as if a grasshopper landed on the dog, moving to another place, locking up (rigidity of the legs). Sometimes all that is noticeable is a furrowing of the dog's brow. A dog may also rear up, raising his front legs off the ground. A dog that does this may do so because of a startle reflex. He's not in pain he's just been startled. One of the more subtle signs, especially with very stoical dog is a blink of his eyes. That's why I use a "three button press" method. The dog will blink three times at the same time that you've pressed the button.

You may find that your dog vocalizes and rears up when he gets a stimulation. There are two reasons that a dog will vocalize with an Ecollar stimulation. One is that he's in pain. Since I'm using the continuous mode, if this is the reason that a dog is vocalizing, he'll continue to vocalize as long as I hold down the button. If this is occurring YOU'RE TOO HIGH. Another reason that a dog may vocalize is from surprise. Think of yourself sitting in a theater watching a scary movie. Someone taps you on the shoulder and you jump and involuntarily make a noise. This is not from being hurt; it's from being startled. I think that the first reason given for a dog to vocalize is unfair, especially at the teaching phase of using the Ecollar but the second reason is acceptable. The dog isn't being hurt; he's just being surprised.

One giveaway that the dog is surprised is that he only vocalizes for an instant, even though continuous stimulation is being applied. If he was being hurt, he'd continue to vocalize as long as the button was being held down because it would continue to hurt.

Be aware that some dogs are just plain vocal and will make noise, "just because." Some of these dogs will make noise before the Ecollar is put on, while it's on and after it's taken off. Their noise has nothing to do with the stimulation since it's not coupled with it. But if the dog starts vocalizing ONLY when the button is pressed, you may be too high. Keep a close eye on the dog and if this is happening, back off on the level a bit. You can always go back up if need be. But also be aware that if you're using the continuous mode and he's vocalizing continuously as long as the button is held down as described above, he's in pain. That's too high for this method.

When the dog shows you that he just perceives the stimulation level, you've found his working level. This may change slightly up or down. Some dogs become used to that level and it will need to be shifted up a touch. Some dogs become sensitized to that level and it will need to be turned down.

Your dog's working level may change from day to day. You should verify that it hasn't changed by checking it every time you take him out to work him. Start out just a bit lower than where you normally work him. Wait till he's not distracted and press the button. You might find that today, he's working at that lower level. If he makes no sign that he feels it; you can go back to his usual level. If he's ignoring you completely, you might need to go a touch higher.

Think of the Ecollar as a new language. Even if the dog already knows obedience commands and performs them very well he won't know what an Ecollar stim is or how to shut if off. A lack of understanding of this phenomenon has led to many problems and is sometimes responsible for Ecollars getting a bad reputation.

Thank you for that, that sounds every bit as bad as my worst nightmare! There's no way I'd choose to do that to a dog if there was any other method available.

I forgot to add, I won't be responding to any of the usual foolishness.  That's been done enough.  I just want to get the information out to those who are interested.  I've been asked by eight forum members, individually, to post this information.  I'm sure that there are more who are too shy to post because they don't want to face the usual misinformation attack from the usual people. 

As you say, sometimes this is the only way.  I'd imagine that there are people who would rather see a dog be put down rather than to have him be trained with an Ecollar.  I can't think of anything more despicable than that thought process. 

arent they banned in the uk though?

>arent they banned in the uk though?

No they're not.  After the deplorable Essex incident, in which a police dog was kicked to death, a host of training tools were banned from use by the police.  The Ecollar was among them even though it had nothing at all to do with the incident.  To get permission to use the tool on the police force one has to get special permission and it's rarely given. 

But this has no effect outside the police. 

In fact, recent attempts in the UK to have Ecollar banned failed because there was no evidence that they did any harm. 

thought lou castle said they would not be responding to anything after the op ....lol

>thought lou castle said they would not be responding to anything after the op

I said quite clearly, "I won't be responding to any of the usual foolishness." 

I'll be happy to responded to reasonable and logical comments. 

i cant see any reason why i would ever use one :(
i can see that you are trying to justify yourself, & if you are happy keep doing what you do,but most of us on here dont like the thought of them & you will not change that.
we are happy with what we do & you with yours,im sure if anyone is interested they will contact you privatley

Why don't you just respond to the 8 members who have privately emailed you privately?

8 out of over 4250 members is surely a very, very small percentage.   More people than that have asked you to stop propagating this method.

You have given the information so there is nothing more for you to say - hopefully.

We shall give our information.

Margot

Just what I was going to say 8 out of over 4,000 members.  If people really want to read this, then surely they will pm you.  Anyway we have heard the same thing over and over and over again over the past few days and you still haven-t changed my mind, in fact you have made me more determined to never use one of these torturous contraptions (JMHO). Why not post to say should any of the members of this board wish to hear about your methods then they are welcome to pm you.

>Just what I was going to say 8 out of over 4,000 members.

That's about the same number of people who have asked me to stop posting.  One tiny but vocal group, numbering about 2% of the board, shouldn't govern what the rest read.  This isn't a democracy in any case; it's the private property of the forum owners. 

>we have heard the same thing over and over and over again over the past few days

No you haven't.  This is the first time that I've posted this information. 

>Why not post to say should any of the members of this board wish to hear about your methods then they are welcome to pm you. 

Because then ONLY those with the courage to PM or email me will get the information.  Any anyone not on the forum at that moment won't get the information.  There's no logical reason to suppress it.  It doesn't violate any rules of this Forum.  I'm reminded of a group of people that both our countries fought a few decades ago who burned books because they don't like the topic. 

Doesn't the UK support the concept of freedom of speech?  

>Why don't you just respond to the 8 members who have privately emailed you privately?

The name of the Forum is the "Information Exchange."  Just as many people have asked that it be posted as have asked that it not be posted.  As I said, I'm quite sure that there are more people who want to hear it but are afraid to post that because they'll be personally attacked.  I'm sure that the majority doesn't care one way or another but I'm quite sure that they support the concept of "freedom of speech."  But even if the majority didn't want it posted, that hardly means that it shouldn't be available.  You folks keep talking about how uneducated people will misuse the tool, I'm just trying to educate. 

Just because a few don't want it posted hardly means that all communication should be kept private.  Don't read it if you don't want to. 

fair piont but there are many issues on here (not just ecollars) that have been discussed to death many times, & tbh i dont think it does them any good to be continually raked over

> there are many issues on here (not just ecollars) that have been discussed to death many times

If it's too tiresome for you to read, then don't.  You folks are spending a huge amount of time trying to suppress information.  I'm not advocating anything that's against the law and the tool is freely available all over the UK.  If people aren't educated as to how to use it, your worst fears of what will happen to the dogs are just about guaranteed to happen. 

to be honest id prefer a dog to be kindly PTS than suffer in one of those. that is just my opinion :(

>You folks are spending a huge amount of time trying to suppress information.

Not so. You have posted the information. We're sick to the back teeth with the propoganda. Leave people alone to make up their own minds.

there IS a search facility on here afterall!

>Leave people alone to make up their own minds.

Intelligent people want to have all the information that's available before making decisions. 

Of course it has to be read by the dog lovers on this board, the dog lovers on this board have to inform people about this "evil device" (JMHO)

Lou,

"Because then ONLY those with the courage to PM or email me will get the information"

It takes no courage whatsoever to PM you - it's totally anonymous, so there is NO reason why the rest of us have to continuously read information on a subject we abhor.  Please take this to PM and leave the rest of us who DON'T want it, out of it.   Those who DO PM or email you are the ones you should be concentrating on.....

I quote, from written evidence of Jennifer Dobson, placed before the Select Committee on Environment, Food and  from the report entitled "Written evidence on the Use of Electric Collars for Dogs., on 19th August 2004:-

I quote :-
"3.  E-collars are not appropriate or necessary for most dogs, or for routine obedience training, not least because they require a certain level of expertise in the assessment of suitable cases and actual use of the product, to ensure that problems are resolved, not caused.

4.  Some dogs will not respond to positive reinforcement, a powerful strengthener of required behaviour, unless the various self-reward factors of the inappropriate behaviour are first countered by suitable negative consequences."

Margot

I quote again - this time from the Kennel Club itself:-

Kennel Club Call For A Ban on E-Collars
   
 
'The e-Collar - which side do you sit on?
The Kennel Club is encouraging dog owners to write to their politicians to persuade Government to ban the sale and use of electronic shock collars as part of the proposed Animal Welfare Bill.

This call to action follows the KC's campaign last year to see the product banned and the request from the Department of Environment Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) for scientific evidence that proves 'cruelty' to support a ban.

The KC has now obtained independent scientific evidence which proves that the use of these products 'are not only unpleasant but also painful and frightening' and 'may influence the dog's well being in the long term in a negative way.'

In light of this evidence - and two other papers that have been submitted - the Kennel Club has requested that DEFRA now bans the use of these products as part of the proposed Animal Welfare Bill.

The paperwork was submitted to DEFRA recently, but in order for the department to fully appreciate the strength of feeling against the use of the product, now is the time to lobby politicians on a local level so that MPs can make representations to DEFRA.

Said Caroline Kisko, Secretary to the Kennel Club, "The collar trains the dog to respond out of fear of further punishment - having received a shock when it does not perform what is asked of it - rather than from a natural willingness to obey. This is not the type of training method that the Kennel Club would endorse.

Margot

>I quote again - this time from the Kennel Club itself:-

This information was also presented to your legislature.  They didn't buy it and neither should the forum members. 

You cannot  request others to not debate, Lou. Electric collars will always be a "problem" area because so many feel very strongly against them. People are not going to stop because you, a pro electric collar supporter, ask  them to.

To be honest, if people want to use them, there are enough sites for them to go to. It is disgusting to actually promote them for every day training for pet owners. Sorry, but that's how i feel and I am not going to stop questioning them just because you ask me to.

I repeat the words of an electric collar user spoken to me "in the wrong hands, they are torture".

By the way; re the Essex case. Police dog Acer was kicked to death, by his handler, who did not want to do it, but was forced to do it (?) by the trainer who basically used blackmail to make him kick the dog. The reason electric collars were banned in the ensuing furore was because they are deemed to be an item used in harsh training methods, are deemed to be unfair to the dog, and are not wanted by the British public. So electric collars were not used in that particular case, (ie they did not kill Acer) but were still implicated in harsh training and therefore were banned from police training.

Lindsay

>You cannot  request others to not debate

Did I ask for that? 

>I repeat the words of an electric collar user spoken to me "in the wrong hands, they are torture".

So are leashes, collars of all sorts, clickers, boots and sticks; but I don't see anyone expending the amount of energy that's being devoted to Ecollars. 

>The reason electric collars were banned in the ensuing furore was because they are deemed to be an item used in harsh training methods

They can be, as can any other tool. 

>are deemed to be unfair to the dog

They can be as can any other tool. 

>and are not wanted by the British public.

They are however wanted by many of the trainers who are responsible for training the very dogs that protect you.  They well recognize that many dogs don't respond to so called "kinder, gentler" methods and many are clamoring to have them back.  Many offices are allowing them on a case by case basis because they realize how good the tool is.  I'm on many restricted (to law enforcement) lists in the UK and the topic comes up quite frequently. 

I quote from your post of 13.05 :-

To get permission to use the tool on the police force one has to get special permission and it's rarely given. 

..... so the "many restricted (to law enforcement) lists in the UK " that you are on where "the topic comes up quite frequently" - might we be correct in guessing who instigates the topic?

Margot 

The actual  percentage of the membership of this board that have PMd you, asking you to put forward the case for Ecollars is 0.18125% - not nearly 2%, Lou (decimals always catch me out as well)

However, in the restricted time that you have posted this, 9 people have asked you not to post - 01.965%

In a democracy - that's a majority.

Lou Castle - For all those members that are too afraid to ask you about this awful collar only need to look at your website for information and nobody will even know that they have had a look so I think you are just looking for excuses by saying they are too afraid to ask.

Just face it, you won't change peoples views, let them come to you if they want too, all they have to do it click on your name to get access to your web site.

Exactly Labs, all people have to do is to look on his website!

Lindsay
X

>Just face it, you won't change peoples views

You're quite wrong.  EIGHT people have done a complete turnaround.  I don't expect to convince everyone. 

This is promoting a product you have previously admitted selling so why not be honest and admit you have a vested interest.

> so why not be honest and admit you have a vested interest.

I have a vested interest.  I've never denied it and it's never been a secret.  I didn't know that it was bad to be in business.  I didn't know that it was bad to sell legal products.  Of course if you factor in the time I've spent giving away free advice here and elsewhere, I'm losing money.  I sell Ecollars at a great discount to get them into the hands of as many people as possible.  I used the tool for a decade and a half before I started selling them. 

Therefore by promoting its use you are advertising which is against the terms of service and why the previous post I suggested you where advertising on was removed.

>For all those members that are too afraid to ask you about this awful collar only need to look at your website for information

This Forum does not allow "look at my website" posts. 

>I think you are just looking for excuses by saying they are too afraid to ask.

You're quite wrong.  That statement was made by every single person who wrote to me privately.  They don't want to be the victim of browbeating, harassment or rude comments. 

>Said Caroline Kisko, Secretary to the Kennel Club, "The collar trains the dog to respond out of fear of further punishment - having received a shock when it does not perform what is asked of it - rather than from a natural willingness to obey. This is not the type of training method that the Kennel Club would endorse.

I don't endorse it either.  That's not how I use the tool. 

>I quote, from written evidence of Jennifer Dobson

This opinion was presented to the legislature when banning Ecollars was tried.  It didn't succeed. 

And since I doubt that Ms. Dobson has any experience or knowledge of the modern use of Ecollars I don't place any weight on what she thinks about them. 

>This opinion was presented to the legislature when banning Ecollars was tried.  It didn't succeed. 

That doesn't mean it isn't true.

Is it Groundhog Day????

I could have sworn I've heard this debate somewhere before?? ;-)

LOL! :D

Groundhog Day or Deja Vu?!! :D

Lindsay
X

>I could have sworn I've heard this debate somewhere before?? 

You mean I'm not the first to be subject to book burning? 

Oh purlese!

... or can we all have tickets for the burning at the stake :D

Margot

>That doesn't mean it isn't true. 

The fact is that Ecollars are for sale all over the UK.  Suppressing information such as I've offered will just about guarantee that they'll be misused. 

Ms Dobson has used electric collars. So presumably her opinion will now carry more weight, Lou?
You were hasty methinks in dismissing her.

Lindsay

>Ms Dobson has used electric collars.

I'm positive that when she used Ecollars, if in fact she has, she used them in the old style in which high levels of stim are used.  As I plainly said, "modern use of Ecollars."  There's a significant difference. 

Why is an American so interested anyway in how we train in the UK?

Do you recommend that people buy collars from you if you sell them?

Surely you can't actually feel that information about electric collars is "repressed" and so you need to crusade about it! What about when you were on Dogchat, you spent all day pretty much promoting them... for months and months and months on end.

actually, that didn't leave you much time for training all those dogs you claim to have trained, thinking about it....

Lindsay

Lou said;

<< I'm positive that ...she used them in the old style>>

No. I believe you are wrong. She has used modern collars, with modern understanding of the collars.

Lindsay