This thread is instructional.  It gives details for teaching the recall.  It's not a place for the usual debate over whether Ecollars are humane or cruel or shouldn't be used by "amateurs."  It's a "how to" article for those who want to know how I use the tool for this movement.  If there are any questions that this article raises I'll be happy to answer them but please, let's not debate the ethics of the tool here.  If you want to do that, please start another thread.  (Note:  This is edited down a bit for brevity's sake, from the complete article on this topic.  If you'd like the complete article, let me know in a PM.) 

TOOLS FOR THE RECALL

To teach the recall, you'll need a few pieces of equipment:

1. A retractable leash, such as a Flexi. I use a 13' model.
2. A buckle collar that won't slip over the dog's head and
3. Some doggie treats to de-stress the dog, if needed.

The Process

I use a Flexi leash to teach this. Some prefer a longe line but I find that, especially for beginners at this kind of work, it tends to get tangled up in the dog's feet and legs and slows down the training immensely.

I recommend that you hold the Flexi in your right hand and the Ecollar transmitter in your left. This allows you to guide the dog into the heel position. Keep in mind that you're not teaching the heel at this point, you're teaching the recall. But if you gently guide the dog to your left side as he comes in, it's easy to make the transition to the heel.

Let him wander out to the end of the Flexi and then press the continuous button. For the purpose of this exercise imagine that you're standing in the center of a circle whose radius is the length of your Flexi. No matter what he does, use the leash to gently pull him towards you. How hard do you pull? About as hard as you'd push on a baby carriage to get and keep it moving. That is, just hard enough to get the dog to move. As soon as he starts to walk towards you, that is, he takes 4-5 steps in response to the pulling pressure of the Flexi, release the button. DON'T STIM HIM ALL THE WAY IN TO YOU!

More than likely he'll think that the ground over there was hot or that something bit him and he'll move past you and go to your other side of that circle that you're standing in the middle of. As soon as he settles down and is at the end of your Flexi, press and hold the button again. Gently pull him towards you again. As soon as he takes 4-5 steps towards you, release the button. It may take a few minutes before he wanders out to the end of the Flexi again. If you stand around for more than 5 minutes and he hasn't gone all the way out, gently walk away from the direction that he's facing such that you move away so he's at the end of the Flexi again. Press and hold the button and guide the dog towards you again. When he's taken those 4-5 steps towards you, release the button.

After a few minutes of this you may find that the dog comes and stands by you and doesn't wander off again. He believes that "out there" at the end of the Flexi; the ground is "hot." He knows that it's uncomfortable and he doesn't want to be there. He may think that the center of the circle and/or near you is a "safe spot." That's OK for right now but police service dog it's essential that this safe spot be eliminated very quickly. It's never OK for them to persist in the belief that a safe spot exists beyond the very basic training.

Next you do several things at once. You're going to turn and walk away, at the same time pressing the button. It's important that you walk in the opposite direction from where the dog is looking. Part of this is teaching him to pay attention to you and walking in another direction from where he's looking will assist in this. A couple of things may happen. One is that he'll just sit there. He'll probably show a bit of confusion because what's happening now is in conflict with what he's just learned, that the center of the circle is the safe spot. If you reach the end of the Flexi continue walking and pressing the button. If you reach the end of the Flexi, keep walking and pull the dog towards you. As he increases his speed in response to this, release the button and stop walking. He should get to your position and stop.

If he continues to walk past you, immediately reverse your direction, and press the button. If he keeps going in the same direction he was headed he'll soon reach the end of the Flexi. If you reach the end of the Flexi, use it to pull him towards you. When he takes 4-5 steps towards you in response to the pull, take your finger off the button. Repeat this until he's turning to move with you every time you step off. At this time you can introduce the "here" command.

Now you're going to do several things at the same time. The next time that you turn and walk away, press the button and say, "Here" at the same time. Three things happen at once. You turn and walk, you say "here" and you press the button. The dog should turn and walk with you. If he doesn't, you've gone a bit too fast. Back up until he's walking with you reliably.

Can I suggest an alternative method ? I am/was an inexperienced dog owner, but my dogs both have very good recall. My method for teaching the recall for both my dogs - one an older rescue, the other a pup - was to go to good training classes and follow their instructions to the letter. It worked for me and gave me and the dogs a lot of fun at the same time :)

Daisy

Lou, you state that this is not a place for the usual debate - but, if people seriously disagree with the use of these collars, then you are going to start another debate!
Otherwise you are simply asking people to sit on their hands.
I for one would not start another thread, as we have too many threads that are already taken over by debate and the original problem is lost under it all.

The Recall training you describe sounds nicey, until you see the dog confused and panting and wondering what the world is doing. Messing with a dog's head is not training, it's a form of bullying.

I notice you left out the bit about the dog experiencing stress - surely that should be included in this article ???

Daisy, I agree with you - dogs and owners can have plenty of fun going to training classes and learning about training.

My dog's got great recall, we had the usual problems around teenage period, but that was expected. We just went back to basics and learnt more about how dogs learn - no need for any gadgets.

Lindsay

With the dogs i've owned over the years i have always tought them to come at an early age and i've never had any problems with recall, or letting them off the lead. I feel ecollars would be a very last resort after every other method tried.

>With the dogs i've owned over the years i have always tought them to come at an early age

That's great advice Frank.  But not everyone does that. 

>I feel ecollars would be a very last resort after every other method tried. 

At least you admit the possibility that they might be useful.  Have you ever used one?  Have you ever seen one used as I use them? 

I find it unbelieveable that so called human beings find this method at all reasonable!

They say it doesn't hurt, so if that is true, how the hell does it work? It is the pain that causes the change in behaviour.

The majority of the people on CD are genuine dog lovers who would find any way of training preferable to giving a dog an electric shock whenever they do something undesirable. For those of you who do agree with them, I know we are all entitled to out own opinions as it says on the rules of use page, but please, keep these opinions to yourselves, the rest of us find it incredibly distressing and would rather not here about it. 

To be honest Lou Castle i think you are on the wrong site for promoting Ecollars no one is interested i believe this is about the third thread about them and it's turning into a saga. What is your motive to wind people up? you and others have seen the results of posting on here about Ecollars and it's just not working, probably guests aren't interest either, so if you like using them then keep that to yourself, and as i've read on other posts they dont work when you take them off, which i could full well understand as it wouldn't be long before the dog associated getting a electric shock with the collar, oops there we go, back to square one when the dog wouldn't come, then one what turn the volts up.  It all sounds abit cruel to me.

>To be honest Lou Castle i think you are on the wrong site for promoting Ecollars no one is interested

You're quite wrong Frank.  People ARE interested.  I've gotten private emails from them.  They just don't want to stand up to the onslaught of the few. 

>i believe this is about the third thread about them and it's turning into a saga.

Actually it's more than than the third.  It turns into a saga because the same people, who have virtually no experience with the tool, always jump in to stop the spread of information, the very reason that this forum exists.  It's called the "Information Exchange."  But many people are determined to prevent that from happening. 

>What is your motive to wind people up?

To inform those who want to learn. 

>you and others have seen the results of posting on here about Ecollars and it's just not working

It's working just fine.  I get at least one private email from someone who wants more information every time it comes up.  

>i've read on other posts they dont work when you take them off

Frank you're being misled.  Like any tool used in training dogs, it must be weaned away.  Clicker folks eventually, if they're doing the work properly that is, wean the clicker and treats away.  Does the behavior stop?  Not if it's been done properly.  People who train with haltis, eventually wean them away, if they're doing the work properly that is.  Does the behavior stop?  Not if it's been done properly.  To think that the Ecollar is any different is to not understand dogs or dog training. 

<< the rest of us find it incredibly distressing...>>

That is how i feel. I've been reading Lou Castle's posts for many months on various forums and am not and never have been "converted".

The collars do of course cause pain, but many are used on low levels; but the discomfort and mental stress is always there, because that's how they work. And of course, they can be turned up. If the dog does something wrong, or maybe just doesn't understand or doesn't hear, it can be turned up.

American gundog trainers are great devotees. They use them on high levels most of the time

Lindsay
X

>I've been reading Lou Castle's posts for many months on various forums and am not and never have been "converted".

Not everyone is.  No gets 100% all the time.  I'm happy with one or two.  I'm getting that. 

>The collars do of course cause pain

They can.  So can any tool. 

> but the discomfort and mental stress is always there

The discomfort is there.  Mental stress is always present in learning.  Think back to your last algebra test! 

>And of course, they can be turned up

There's always the boot or the stick.  Since people who understand Ecollars realize that "just turning it up" hurts the training, they don't.  Abusers need not apply.  They'll abuse dogs no matter what tool is used. 

>If the dog does something wrong, or maybe just doesn't understand or doesn't hear, it can be turned up.

What "can" happen and what "does" happen are not the same thing.  I "can" throw the transmitter at the dog, but I wouldn't.  If the dog doesn't understand, he's shown again.  The Ecollar isn't turned up.  If he doesn't hear the command is repeated.  Again, you show that you don't have the slightest understanding of the tool. 

>American gundog trainers are great devotees. They use them on high levels most of the time

Yes they do.  But that has nothing to do with this thread

>They say it doesn't hurt, so if that is true, how the hell does it work? It is the pain that causes the change in behaviour.

I'll try an analogy.  You're outside your home.  It's chilly.  You go inside to get a sweater so you can continue to enjoy the fresh air without being uncomfortable.  Your behavior changed from standing around to entering the house, getting a sweater and putting it on.  Did that hurt?  Was pain involved?  There are other ways to change behavior than pain.  Slight discomfort works just fine. 

>The majority of the people on CD are genuine dog lovers

Me too. 

>who would find any way of training preferable to giving a dog an electric shock whenever they do something undesirable.

If those other methods of training worked that would be great.  But take a look at the first post in the thread called "Not responding to Recall."  There you'll see a dog who gets loose and runs off for up to an hour at a time. 

> but please, keep these opinions to yourselves, the rest of us find it incredibly distressing and would rather not here about it.  

I'm sorry that you're distressed.  I'd suggest that you not read this thread any further.  That's really a shame though, you might just learn something. 

Discomfort To deprive of comfort; to cause pain or uneasiness to.
The Consise English Dictionary

>The Recall training you describe sounds nicey, until you see the dog confused and panting and wondering what the world is doing. Messing with a dog's head is not training, it's a form of bullying.

I've trained well over 1,000 dogs to recall with this method and NEVER have I seen a dog "confused, panting and wondering."  That's because it doesn't happen.  The dog is guided into the proper behavior with the leash, and quickly learns exactly what's expected of him.  Any confusion that occurs is over in a few seconds. 

>I notice you left out the bit about the dog experiencing stress - surely that should be included in this article ???

The fact is that every form of learning incurs stress.  Odd but I've never seen you mention it. 

>dogs and owners can have plenty of fun going to training classes and learning about training.

What's REALLY fun is when the dog learns very quickly.  I can get a reliable off leash recall in 2-3 days. 

>My dog's got great recall, we had the usual problems around teenage period, but that was expected.

Something else strange.  I don't have those problems!  All you're doing is showing people that you don't know how to use the tool.  Fine by me! 

Once again, I requote from your own website Lou - either it is, or it isn't!

If you have the dog wear the Ecollar as long as he's outside the home or whenever he deploys you have the ability to correct him if he doesn't perform. If the Ecollar is back home, you can't.

I've been asked a few times if 60 days of automatic stimulations is really necessary. I've found that it's not always necessary with every dog. But I've found that all dogs respond if it's done this way. YOUR dog might only need 45 days or 30 days of automatic stimulations but then some people will assume that because their dog is working OK that he only need 20 days. The result of cutting this corner is unreliability.

What you are saying is that THIS TOOL has to be used CONTINUOUSLY!

Enough said.  Point made.  Goodbye Lou!

Margot

In other words as soon as the collar comes off the dog is uncontrollable again??

Lou congratulations you have managed to set off another pointless thread!!

I know i said i wouldnt post on this thread anymore BUT...

If we all ignore Lou and his sidekicks posts perhaps they will go away!! Easy fixed!!

>In other words as soon as the collar comes off the dog is uncontrollable again??

Nope.  Just misleading information from someone who likes to read out of context. 

>If we all ignore Lou and his sidekicks posts perhaps they will go away!! Easy fixed!!

Not the slightest chance that will happen. 

But I quoted direct, from the first page of your website - how can that be taken out of context?

Just as you continue to post on this unwelcome thread, so shall I,  so that no unsuspecting innocent might think that your way is the "right" way.

I use no other arguments - only your own words.

Margot

Well said Margot.

It's easy to change the goalposts...

Lindsay
X

Well, tell the forum the hilarious story of the swimming dog and you may get laughed off.... :D

Lindsay

>Once again, I requote from your own website Lou - either it is, or it isn't!

I guess you've never heard of an update.  After writing the article that's on my website I found several dogs that responded better to less than 60 days of autostims.  I'm sorry if you're unable to update your methods, I do so all the time. 

>What you are saying is that THIS TOOL has to be used CONTINUOUSLY!

That's not what I've said at all.  Show me anywhere I've made such a statement. 

Is your update on your website though Lou? 

I must say, I find it incredible that there is this constant and continuous negative training  for all these days - basically the dog is under threat all the time. Dress it up however you like.

Lindsay

>Is your update on your website though Lou? 

I don't know.  I sent it to my web guy but I don't know if he's updated the site yet. 

>I must say, I find it incredible that there is this constant and continuous negative training  for all these days

If all this negative training that you keep talking about was perceived as negative by the dogs they'd show it.  But somehow they don't.  Perhaps they understand it better than you. 

>basically the dog is under threat all the time.

The dogs would show this too by their behavior.  But somehow they don't. 

>Dress it up however you like. 

No need for "dressing up."  I just tell the truth. 

You are using plenty of negative training Lou, and that's a fact. Where's the positive side for the dog?

The way the collar is used, you may get a dog wagging his tail and smiling at you, but it's not out of joy in training, it's out of relief at the discomfort stopping.

Lindsay

If this is such a safe and painless method of training, can I take it that we shall soon see it sold to parents to train their toddlers ???? Would you use it on your children/grandchildren to teach them not to go near roads, touch the cooker in the kitchen etc ???

Daisy

Of course he will, Daisy, because it makes them all giggle ... :rolleyes:

Lou Castle said

<<<  I don't have those problems!All you're doing is showing people that you don't know how to use the tool. Fine by me!>>>

I have had the "problem" with 2 dogs out of 3,  it's normal and due to the pup growing and wanting to discover the world, and  hormones. It's a STAGE, and an expected one. Just like teenage children. Or should we use electric collars on them to stop them being teenagers? After all, sometimes it's just not convenient to have an annouing teenager ignoring mum, or cheeking mum.  I have a dog, not an automaton, and prefer it that way. I accept dog behaviour as it is and work with it, I don't want to have a dog that doesn't behave like a dog.

I also thoroughly enjoy the satisfaction of working through such problems - you don't understand that because you use an electric collar and remote control.

Lindsay

>I have had the "problem" with 2 dogs out of 3,  it's normal and due to the pup growing and wanting to discover the world, and  hormones. It's a STAGE, and an expected one.

Yep most dogs go through it.  The difference is that with mine, the behavior that I've trained remains consistent. 

>Or should we use electric collars on them to stop them being teenagers?

Why is it always those who oppose the use of Ecollars who suggest using them on children?

>I have a dog, not an automaton, and prefer it that way.

No one with any knowledge of Ecollar training has said that their dog is an "automaton"  It's only folks who don't know anything about the tool who make such statements.  My dogs aren't automatons either, but when I give a command it's not a suggestion, it's (as the word says) a command.  There's no discussion about whether or not it should be obeyed. 

>I accept dog behaviour as it is and work with it

I don't know what you mean by stating that you "accept dog behavior as it is."  Anyone who trains dogs does that. 

>I don't want to have a dog that doesn't behave like a dog.

If we put my dogs alongside yours no one could tell that one was trained with an Ecollar and one wasn't.  When my dogs are not under command they're having just as much fun as any other dog. 

>I also thoroughly enjoy the satisfaction of working through such problems - you don't understand that because you use an electric collar and remote control.

Only people who don't know anything about Ecollars make such statements.  They seem to think that you just push a button and PRESTO the dog is trained.  Using an Ecollar gives more satisfaction than training with any other tool because you can see the results so fast. 

LOU said:

<< why is it always  those who oppose the use of Ecollars who suggest using them on children?>>

I don't know.
Maybe it's because teenagers (which were what was mentioned) are very much like teenage canines.

Why do supporters of Electric collars like to suggest children like them? Try turning the level up a bit, the poor children won't be giggling then.

Lindsay

I agree that is the best method Daisy :)  The other important thing is to apply a bit of self recognition and not buy a strong willed, powerful breed in the first place if you are likely to have to resort to the above sort of treatment.  I know several people who own these sort of dogs and manage to train them perfectly well without it so the only factor I can see is a failing in the handler.  I have no problems in holding my hands up and admitting I don't have that level of competance which is why I will never be buying such a breed no matter how much I might fancy one.

Lou - we want to train our dogs for recall OFF LEAD - you don't think that dogs can do that, do you?

I quote:-

Gaining Reliability

The reason that dogs don't obey all the time is that they are gamblers. Let's see if I can do what I wanna do THIS time!

I recommend this method to ensure reliability. In my opinion either a dog is reliable or he's not. Reliability means 100%. My bottom line is that if the dog is off leash and he's not wearing the Ecollar you can't give him a correction and therefore you can't guarantee reliability. Some people don't need reliability but others, particularly those with Search and Rescue dogs, Personal Protection dogs or Police Service Dogs; DO need reliability. But just because you own a pet, rather than a working dog, doesn't mean that you too, can't have a reliable dog.

When you start training there's a temptation to Let's see if he's getting it. That is to give a command and not give a stimulation. Usually, if you've been following my protocol, the dog WILL perform. But you've just taught him a valuable lesson, one that will cause you grief later on, even though it's not apparent now. It just takes one of these tests (more tests is worse) to teach the dog this lesson. This lesson is that a stimulation doesn't always come when the command is given. When this occurs before the dog has the habit of performing every time, it can end in an undesirable result, unreliability.

Automatic Corrections

I recommend that people use automatic corrections that is they give a stimulation EVERY time they give a command, even if the dog is in the act of performing the movement, for the first two months of their training. That means 60 days of working the dog, not 60 days, elapsed time. At the end of those 60 days give a command but don't give a stimulation. As long as the dog performs you're OK. Start a count and if you get to 30 days (of training, not 30 calendar days) and you haven't had to give a stimulation because the dog didn't perform, you can remove the Ecollar. But if just once the dog didn't perform and you had to give him a stimulation along with a second command, start your count over again.

Restarting Your Count

At some point later on, your dog will gamble. That is he'll be more interested in doing what he wants to do than obeying your command. When he does this put the Ecollar back on for a week of automatic stimulations. Then you can start your 30-day count again.

For those working dogs mentioned above, Search and Rescue dogs, Personal Protection dogs and Police Service Dogs I recommend that they wear the Ecollar all the time, when they're deployed. For those dogs we often can't afford nor have time for a second command.

How Reliable is Reliable Enough?

This is a question that only you can answer. If you don't mind having to call your dog three times then neither do I. But it's not acceptable for a police service dog and can cause serious problems with SAR dogs and pets as well. If it takes three commands to get your dog to sit as he runs toward a highway, you might find that when he finally does comply he's in the middle of the road.

If you have the dog wear the Ecollar as long as he's outside the home or whenever he deploys you have the ability to correct him if he doesn't perform. If the Ecollar is back home, you can't.

I've been asked a few times if 60 days of automatic stimulations is really necessary. I've found that it's not always necessary with every dog. But I've found that all dogs respond if it's done this way. YOUR dog might only need 45 days or 30 days of automatic stimulations but then some people will assume that because their dog is working OK that he only need 20 days. The result of cutting this corner is unreliability.

This is directly cut & pasted form your website :(

So what you are saying is, that your method is ONLY reliable if we can SHOCK the dog into a recall - Yes?

Margot

Lou Castle i thought i would give you a go and try to see things from all sides,including yours :)

I have just come back from your website and i felt physically sickened by it,the heartbreak i feel for those dogs is indescribable and the methods you put forth made me feel,like i said,sick :(

I just cant hear anymore about this inhumane device. Please,please stop forcing this down our throats.

I am so upset at the thought of those dogs who have to go through wearing this contraption that i'm literally shaking!!
Ontop of all of this,can you imagine how many inexperienced owners are whacking these collars on their dogs  in the hope of "a quick fix" ??

This is all too much for me to bare.
I just know i'm going to have nightmares about this tonight.

This is all i'm going to say about it on this thread!

Lou Castle, I was just wondering if you even bothered to try and train a dog all these commands WITHOUT using the e-collar, I'm sorry but on your website you have a very lenthly artical on how to teach a dog to SIT, I can teach a 10 week old puppy how to sit without the need to cause them pain.

You obvisley have no training skills if this collar is all you use, I understand that in america this is usual practice, sadly, but in the uk it is not, so I suggest that you don't put any more threads about it as it only gets peoples backs up, and you are NOT going to change the mind of people on this forum, so if I were you I would admit defeat.

I must say, this is horrendous.  To teach a dog to sit using electrical shocks - where is the humanity in that?  I am a huge fan of positive reinforcement - my doberman sits very nicely, and very fast, and he has NEVER had so much as a raised voice when he hasn't done it - the absolute worst aversive he has received is a hand on his rump - not pushing, just there to remind him.  And he is an incredibly independant dog, one you'd call a stubborn dog if ever you knew one!  He also does agility, lies down, stays and does all the other basic commands and then some, with no aversives used.  My rott X is the same - and if I ever tried to use an e-colalr on her, I know she'd be terrified.  Dogs' lives should not be all about doing things to avoid pain - they should be doing things because they want to.  If that means bribery with tasty treats, then so be it - i'd much prefer that than knowingly causing my dog pain.

Your methods have no place in modern dog care - and if a dog cannot be trained to recall reliably off-leash, then it should not be let off, it's that simple.  The risks of mistakes and the consequences of these mistakes when using an e-collar are just too great.

Also to add, in your post you mention equipment needed

A retractable leash
A buckle collar
doggie treats to de-stress dog

whats wrong with that last bit???

The fact that you are admitting that it can stress the dog, and all you go on about is how reliable your dog should be. Well tell me "How reliable is a dog that is stress and maybe even frightened" in my opinion, not very. How would you feel if a stress and frightened dog, no matter how friendly it normally was, was to turn on someone and seriously hurt them. Just a thought.

>Lou - we want to train our dogs for recall OFF LEAD - you don't think that dogs can do that, do you?

Not with 100% reliability when they're at a distance and distracted. 

>So what you are saying is, that your method is ONLY reliable if we can SHOCK the dog into a recall - Yes?

No and I've never said anything of the sort.  But let's get right down to it.  Can you guarantee that your dog will obey every command you give when he's at a distance and he's distracted? 

>Can you guarantee that your dog will obey every command you give when he's at a distance and he's distracted? 

Can you, if the dog's not wearing his ecollar? Every time? Because if you can't then he's no better trained than one trained by conventional methods.

Denis can't give that guarantee by all accounts ... sorry, couldn't resist!!

Lindsay
X

>The other important thing is to apply a bit of self recognition and not buy a strong willed, powerful breed in the first place

Boy that's great advice.  What do you do for folks who find that their sweet little puppy has grown up to be a "strong willed, powerful "dog? 

> I know several people who own these sort of dogs and manage to train them perfectly well without it so the only factor I can see is a failing in the handler. 

No failing here.  I've trained many dogs just like that without the tool.  But I'll never waste my time doing it again.  The Ecollar is too fast and too easy on both me and the dogs. 

>I have no problems in holding my hands up and admitting I don't have that level of competance

I do have that level of competence and I've worked with many of those dogs without the Ecollar.  I see no reason to do training the hard way ever again. 

>which is why I will never be buying such a breed no matter how much I might fancy one. 

And yet you see fit to give advice to people who have those sorts of dogs.  If all I ever worked with was easy-to-train dogs I probably wouldn't use the Ecollar either.  But I've learned that it also works great with them. 

>What do you do for folks who find that their sweet little puppy has grown up to be a "strong willed, powerful "dog? 

Do you mean a puppy of the strong willed, powerful breeds?  Thats why I said they need to recognise what they are capable of.  If you mean a generally biddable breed that they are just failing to control well then they do what Daisy suggests and enlist help with training but it won't need the assistance of an electric shock collar :(.
As to the rest of your relpy it would be all fine and dandy if we were talking about an humane training method. It may be "easy" and "fun" but it remains an electric shock collar which as I'm sure you have gathered by now the vast majority of posters on here find repulsive.

Lou, who are you actually referring to? Which post/poster is that quoted from, or is it several?

Out of interest Lou, do you think you would know how to train a strong willed dog without an electric collar or "corrections" (by that, I mean mainly leash corrections, or any physical punishment).

If you feel you could,  what level of training could you reach do you think?

Many of us  have breeds that are not that easy, but we don't use an electric collar. As Isabel says, we find them repulsive.

Lindsay

So in your opinion no matter how easy a dog is to train, you would rather resort to shocking it anyway, well you are a disgrace to the dog training world, and seems to me you probably enjoy shocking these dogs. I think it would do for you to have one on your neck, turn it up full and let someone shock you and see how it feels, bet you won't like it.

I hope this thread gets locked soon and if you post again about this that it get deleted strait away, just face it through all this debating, how many peoples opinions have you changed, NONE.

Ferodo

>Please,please stop forcing this down our throats.<

Davedee
There are no victims only volunteers

Ferodo

>I just cant hear anymore about this inhumane device.<

Davedee
Well close your eyes I have just posted another educational topic on it, if you close your eyes and don't get over excited you will not 'hear' it.

Dennis said

>>there are no victims, only volunteers...>>>

Really? When all this is rammed down our throats again and again?

Lindsay

I expect Lou will tell us of the many PMs he has had ;)

If you go onto his site, you can read how to train puppies  with electric collars

I've heard the manufacturers are going to provide a device that can be implanted in the dog for electric collar use in America. So, collars today, implants tomorrow. Loathsome.

Lindsay
x

Davedee

>It is the pain that causes the change in behaviour.<

Davedee
Its impossible to train a dog with pain, pain activates the limbic system of the brain and would inhibit learning not enhance it, which the use of an e-collar, in a training system people here do not know, does enhance.

colliesrus 09.05.05 13:41

>They say it doesn't hurt, so if that is true, how the hell does it work? <

Davedee
Good question, you have experienced a similar level as you sit at your PC, you get uncomfortable-you move-that's a similar level of sensation-your question deserves more complete answer, link below:

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=68522#fnp

>I've trained many dogs just like that without the tool.  But I'll never waste my time doing it again.

Too difficult to use your (and the dog's) brain? It's never a waste of time to train a dog to use its brain. But no, lets just stick with sadism. It's so much quicker.

Yep, quick fix every time, very sad.

I feel very sorry for electric collar users in fact.
They can't train without collars and they can't experience the real satisfaction of doing it yourself; all they know is the remote.

Lindsay
X

They certainly seem to be very joyless individuals who appear to get absolutely no pleasure from the companionship of a dog; they give the impression that all they want is a robot to show off.

Definitely something lacking in their lives.

jeanigenie

>Definitely something lacking in their lives.<

davedee
Your right, I've just run out of dam milk.

Lindsay

>Really? When all this is rammed down our throats again and again?<

davedee
You over estimate the numbers of those who do not like what they read, without even watching a session (strange by any standards). There are about 5 of you there are more than likely around 100 lurkers and those who do not wish to post reading this, your one of such a tiny minority, your maybe 1/5th of the minority - youre a mini statistic.

Many small groups of people find themselves in a minority group, cricketers, anglers, dog owners, cranks.<<<(bless 'em)