Did antone read in the paper today,Poilce dog distroyed Teenagers ear bitten
in a fight situation at Brighton.Just wondering what do they expect from a dog .The locals wanted the dog saved.

Apparently the police did a temperament test (or something) on the dog and it failed so they could not rehome it.

It was probably doing a good job of work and would have been much more of a deterrant in future situations than dogs that are not allowed to bite. A variation on a copper giving a kid a clip round the ear! If one of those youths had knifed and killed another one he would not have been pts so why should the dog have been. If it had been badly out of control more than an ear would have been bitten off.

Christine

What did the dog do? did he just bite the ear or bite it off, i havent seen the story so i dont know what happened.

For the full story on Bruce the police dog, click on the following url:
http://www.thisisbrightonandhove.co.uk/brighton__hove/news/NEWS0.html

Apparently it bit a chunk off which was later re-attached by surgeons.
Sad though it is for the handler and the dog, if a dog cannot be trusted to do what it is trained for, hold an offender not bite them, then as the police have said, something has to be done for public safety.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought dogs were temperament tested before the Police even considered training them.

I have just read the story, but it does not really explain what happened prior to the dog biting the child, weather he was running from the dog when it bit him or standing still when it bit him. Police dogs are trained to chase a criminal and apprehend by biting on the arm to stop them, and then the handler will release the dog from the arm and arrest the criminal, or if the criminal was running and then stopped, the dog is trained to do a stand off, which is the dog running around the criminal barking and they are not allowed to touch him, they have to do this from a safe distance between dog and criminal, and then the handler will take control of the dog and arrest the criminal, police dogs are licenced every year to maintain a safe working standard and are put through a series of tests same as what they would do out on the street. It is a shame that this has happened, but without knowing what happened prior to the bite it is hard to pass comment.

I think you'll find most operational dog bites occur on the sides or top of the legs. The dog will bite wherever he can.
If someone is on the ground fighting or bending down then a bite on the head is a distinct possibility.

Yes there is a possibilty that they will bite anywhere, but they are not trained to do so, only on the arm normally, that is why i wanted to know what happened previously before the dog bite occured, what the child was doing for the dog to bite him and in the area that he did.

It said in the article that the youths were armed with bottles etc... the 14 year old bitten was one of two which were pursued up an unlit alley from the police and failed to stop when challenged by the dog handler.
They are trained to bite a padded sleeve. If this 'target' is not there then they will bite anywhere.

Sorry Lara, they are not trained to "Bite a padded sleeve" They are trained to hold on the the arm! The sleeve is only there to protect the person involved with the training. If the dog is fixated on the sleeve it would be no good because no criminal would ever wear a padded sleeve. The long and the short of it is, the dog screwed up!

Regards, John

These dogs 'hold' onto their offenders BY biting them. That is how it is possible :)

Its just a shame that it did happen this way, so many good dogs have been put down because of dog or handler mistakes, and when this does happen once it has gone to the higher ranks to make the decision, it rarely gets a pardon no matter how much public intervention there is, does anybody remember pd sharn that escaped out of the garage while his handler was out? his younger dog also got out and one of the dogs apparently bit a woman, but they were not sure which one it was, that went on for months and months before that got sorted out.

Well I still find this strange was it a young police dog ? was the handler inexperienced
a fight situation they must know a dog even a really good trained one could bite .
it'must be me but I think they really expect to much from a Animal

Patricia

This makes me mad

If I got hold of the louts that vandalised my daughters car they'd lose a lot more than a chunk of ear!!!
Lorna

When all's said and done- should the boy have been on the correct side of the law to begin with this whole incident could have easily been avoided. It has been reported on numerous occasions that an actual police officer has been 'out of order' and used more force than considered reasonable- they don't get pts, just cautioned by either a verbal or written warning- more often- brushed under the carpet! This was a crowd of 20 all armed with bottles and knives. Imagine the confusion of the dog with such a rowdy crowd round him! Last year a police horse trampled on someone while attending a football match- the animal was most certainly not pts. I think the police should have a serious review on their training procedures/ methods. You may be able to tell a human what is reasonable force but how do they expect a dog to fully understand this when he has a split second to respond. Mike Tyson bit someone's ear off but he was not pts either.The boy's lucky in my opinion because had he have been a burglar at my house I can assure you more force than this would have been used and I would feel it quite justified.

Like I said before if the boy had not put himself in this situation in the first place! The dog did his job, the handler was unhurt and the criminal was caught!

I'm with you Lorna. It seems in this day the louts can do no wrong. If you defend yourself, using more than "reasonable force" then the victim ends up in the dock!! Now theres a subjective phrase if ever there was one. And now if the poor police dogs are doing their job, chasing louts with broken bottles up to no good, what happens, they lose their lives!! Its time this country got its priorities right and stopped protecting the criminals. No wonder society is in the state it is. There now I'm glad to have got that off my chest!!

Who decides the temperament test results? It may well be the same person as who decided in the first place which therefore he /she may have been saving face! And if it was different people then what will happen to whoever passed him in the first place- he/she should also receive some form of warning for so called 'endangering' the public!

For anyone who knows the breed or knows of the breed you know just what these dogs are capable of therefore this was classed as reasonable force for one of these dogs.

I urge anyone wishing to make a complaint regarding this matter to do so by e-mailing the police on 'contact.centre@sussex.police.uk'

they train a dog to bite then get scared when it does

they train a dog to HOLD , not bite

Dizzy please explain how the dog HOLDS without biting! All police dogs are trained to bite!!

so every police dog that holds a criminal or whoever will of bitten that person,?im sure they could hold without teeth going into the skin, its portrayed that way on documentarys ive watched,
what about the bullmastiff who was trained to HOLD the poacher until his owner arrived, they didnt bite , they held, if im wrong i stand corrected :rolleyes:

If the criminal surrenders at the last minute from running away or is discovered hiding somewhere by the dog then the dog will not bite but bark in front of the criminal, detaining him until his handler arrives to take over. This is known as the 'hold and bark' but if the criminal tries to break and run to escape then the dog will stop him by biting.
The only way the criminal will avoid an injury from the dog is if he happens to be wearing thick clothing and the particular dog in question does not have a hard full mouth bite which is what the handler will be training to achieve!
Sorry can't comment on bullmastiffs trained to catch poachers! Police dogs are trained to bite and bite hard! Their handlers lives may depend on it.

My friend's Rottie holds your arm- When I went to visit my Son who was 3 at the time- he's 4 now- kept going in the kitchen so I was telling him to come out of the kitchen when the dog actually came walking through with his arm in her mouth- she didn't break the skin or hurt him in any way whatsoever. Metpol Fan has two GSD's and knows a lot re the police dogs and handlers- I think she was a handler actually- and she posted further up this thread that they're trained to hold not bite- and she certainly knows her stuff! I was and still am outraged at this- I e-mailed complaining- see my post further up also- but even if the dogs were trained to bite surely they're not trained to bite the ear?

Stacey x x x

ive seen cases where criminals try to claim for getting bitten by the police dogs, if it was normal and accepted practise then why would they try???

Criminals claim compensation for almost everything because the laws in this country tend to suck! I remember reading about a yob who threw a brick at a factory window and knocked himself out when the brick bounced back and hit him because it was reinforced glass. He successfully sued the factory owner for damages. The armed IRA prisoners who escaped successfully sued for injuries on recapture. They shot a prison officer! Murderers, rapists and other dangerous wierdos walk the streets while folk who dive for golf balls etc.. get locked up! That's the law and that's why criminals sue.

lara, presuming im wrong and you're right, how do you know so much about police dogs, ????is it something youve learned-perhaps you've worked for them ,just wondering, didnt know if you knew for sure or wether you where assuming, :D

No Dizzy - I am not assuming :)

I just read the posts you mentioned. Metpol Fan also says the dogs apprehend a criminal by BITING on the arm.

This is quoted from 'The German Shepherd Dog' National Magazine April 2002.

Assistant Cheif Constable Nigel Yeo says the decision was regrettable.

But he said:'At the end of the day, a police dog is not trained to do what it did. A police dog is not a pet, its a piece of equipment. If we had a car that did not work or had faulty brakes then we would get rid of it. We have to be as bloody-minded as that for the sake of public safety.'

A force spokeswoman also said 'Police dogs which fail cannot be rehomed. If it bit again, Sussex Police could be liable for legal action because it had been trained by the force'.

Stacey McSpirit, who runs the Paws Animal Sanctuary in Findon said 'Mike Tyson bit someone's ear off and they didn't put him down'.

The last I thought was quite a good comment- let's not forget though that Bruce also bit a police officer in 1999 and the officer forgave him, another report that he bit a woman on the wrist is also listed and another suspect who was bitten twice in the leg by the dog for trying to kick a different dog.

cant think why if its what theyre expected to do-- surely this points to the fact theyre not supposed to bite, ---i rest my case :(

OK Dizzy - last comment! Sometimes a dog who enjoys his work can become a bit of a handful. If he decides to bite 'willy nilly' then his suitability will be reassessed. The dog is required to work under the supervision of the handler and under his close instruction. For an example - if the dog is deployed by the handler to chase and bite a suspect and detain him. This he does - but when the handler calls the dog off if he then spins round and rebites the criminal then the second bite can be argued as being unlawful and the force used 'unnecessary'.
I think that there is more to that police dog mentioned than meets the eye.

how can you train an attack dog to be gentle while holding a criminal

dont quite think theyre classed as attack dogs- i believe police dogs!------i never said gentle-it could be firm-even harsh but should it be biting?
oh and how do you train a pitbull to be civil?

a police dog is trained to bite, there is no question about that, how hard it bites, its purely down to that dog, i have known some dogs to bite through a normal sleeve, and therefore have to have a reinforced one, the problem with being a police dog is that you are expected to be part of the family one minute, and then go out to work and start biting criminals, it is a very fine line that these dogs are trained on, and sad but true if these dogs make mistakes, they usually are shipped out to other organisations such as the prison service, army, or if no one wants them then they are put to sleep, it does not matter how much public intervention there is, once that dog has been tested, and fails, the higher ranks who usually deal with it will make the decision on the dog, and that is it.

Hi Good morning So if the police know the dogs bite they must be prepared to lose a lot of well trained dog's how much would it cost to train from start to finish to train the dog ?

I still think they expect far to much from Animals the animal just think's it's
protecting the owner surely ?

Pat x

According to this article Pat- it says 'it costs £6,000 to train a police dog and it is worth £35,000 during it's working life of eight years' and thats a spokeswoman for the police who's said that;)

Stacey x x x

Let's get one thing straight here, a police K9 dog used by dog handlers on routine park's patrols is NEVER trained to engage in a full mouth bite, once the skin is broken that policemen may then find himself in court law says skin cant be broken when apprehending a criminal. That is why for exaple they are taught to do the chase and hold whereby the dog chases and grabs the arm there is a big difference between grabbing an arm and not letting go and grabbing the arm and sinking the teeth as far as they will possibly go. I watched an excellent program on police dogs and they were explaniing how training is much harder and more expensive due to having to get them to not break the skin. If you ask me they should be trained to take a chunk out of their thigh that would teach them a lesson. I was out celebrating GCSE exams few summers ago and due to being drunk in a park that we should not of been in after dark we were stopped by two police with their german shepherds what a great experience fter picking up our litter I chatted to them about their dogs and then left the park I tell you you shit yourself when you have one of them standing by you! Believe me it is one of the most frightening experiences I have been stopped twice by police with dogs thats being a teenager in London for you but I have nothign to hide so Im not complaining although I believe for being loud in evening n a park the big stick should be used we didnt even get a caution. The law though is that police dogs can't break the skin.

Security dogs are different they are seen by their SINGLE handler for maximum one hour a day and they are taught to basically maul to near death anyone who enters a protected area usually only army bases and extremely dangerous highly important areas nuclear power equipment etc mostly used during war Afghanistan etc. K9 Bodyguards and Manstopper:Training a Canine Guardian are excellent starter reads on this topic if it interests you.

I kind of know what i am talking about regarding police dogs, having worked with them for nine years, seeing them trained, and have worked alongside and chatted to handlers and heard all the stories, and know for a fact, that these dogs do bite, do you think that if when out training, that if they just held the arm until the officer came along to apprehend the offender, they would wear a sleeve, why bother, after all these dogs apparently do not bite? beleive me if you werent wearing one you would know about it.

security dogs, what do you mean by, they are seen one hour a day, at that they are allowed to maul whoever?

NB--
I was closely acquainted with Military Working Dogs, their handlers, & trainers for 8 years while in the US Air Force. During that time, many foreign personnel trained their dogs alongside ours including British military. I think they still do. Trust me, their dogs are not what you seem to classify as "security" dogs. They don't "maul" anyone to death. Sure, they are not nice if the handler sets his dog after a perp, but they won't kill you. They will bite, just like any police dog. But as soon as you stop struggling, the dog will just hold you.

So those dogs in Afghanistan, Nuke surety, and elsewhere dealing with high security are better trained than you think. It's almost as if you are going by the dogs that were involved in Vietnam. I heard stories from my old bosses about how brutal & vicious they were, even to their own handlers.

The take down is likely to puncture someone's skin since we work with body wraps. But they are very 'wrap' happy. I was assisting with a demo, took off running, and eventually stopped when the MP told me to 'Halt.' Unfortunately, the grass was wet and I ended up doing the splits like a jumping jack. When I opened my eyes, the MWD was right there staring into my face about a foot away. I slightly jerked my right hand to catch the dog's attention & sure enough, he grabbed onto the wrist area. But every time the handler called him off, he would let go, and then grab about six inches up the arm. I was so glad when the handler finally made it across the field since the dog had ended up at my shoulder & I wasn't wearing a hood. :D:D Better believe that it would broken the skin. I did have bruises, despite the heavy padding up my entire right arm for the next week or so. Hazzards of the job.

Personally, my favorite position was the free standing body search. The dog sits with his nose about 2 inches from a person's groin area whilst the police officer comfortably does a search for weapons & drugs on the 'perp.' The only person I knew that tried to resist turned out to be high on PCP. Probably shocked him to find himself without some needed body parts when he "sobered" up.

toodles

It is amazing when you see on television, the difference between the police in america and the police in england, and how the dogs work differently with the handlers, i was speaking to some k9 handlers that were visiting at work, and they said because of the dangers that they come across, especially with guns, that the dogs needed to be very good at what they do, to back the handler up 100%, and the police in america are very different anyway to england, as in arrest first and then ask questions.

Those dogs are the dogs that assist military personel in conducting searches ie peacekeeping in Kabul and border searches Israel/Palestine. I was talking about security dogs which are a different matter entirely they don't work with their handler they don't have a handler when they patrol they are loose and their handler sees them for aorund one hour a day to makesure they don't get too human happy in this time they are given food and a little attention. They are totally different to personal protection dogs.

Security dogs are different they are seen by their SINGLE handler for maximum one hour a day and they are taught to basically maul to near death anyone who enters a protected area usually only army bases and extremely dangerous highly important areas nuclear power equipment etc mostly used during war Afghanistan etc.

NB --this is what I was confused about and attempting to make clear. I know about Nuclear surety procedures, entry controller duties, and patrolling war/conflict areas with MWD's. Now you say you were referring to something else?

Are you talking about "Junkyard dogs?" Those that are left within enclosed areas supposedly to deter trespassers onto private land, such as a junkyard, yard, wealthy estate? These aren't "security" dogs per se. Someone has deemed that the best guard dog is one that dislikes & distrusts humans. Obviously someone who doesn't really understand training a dog for actual 'security' work, in my opinion. Gee, how impressive ---- NOT!!!!
toodles

i think the law states anyone having a guard dog must supervise it !!!

Just to be clear, I was only referring to Military working dogs in the US. There are different considerations for them vs. police, that's for certain. :D :D The only knowledge I have about actual police dogs is from 17-13 years ago when I had contact with DC Metro Police which wasn't that much.

I know that different states & cities have various training programs & requirements. Although, there is the underlying concept everywhere that the dog is the second partner and must be able to back up the patrolman under any situation just as if he is human.
toodles

Do they still have these kind of dogs that patrol on there own?

Sorry Metpol -- I haven't a clue about your question. I left Law Enforcement and never looked back, except for studying forensic psychology [$ keeping up with legal trends on my own as "hobbies". ]) ;)
BTW, Police are still supposed to ask questions first & arrest second :D :D Not everyone is Dirty Harry :) Despite the media and popular opinion, one is still supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty in a proper court of law. :rolleyes:
toodles

Question was to nb about these dogs that patrol on there own, i didnt mean to come across as watching to many dirty harry fims (personally cant stand them) but when you see on the tv, the american cops seem a lot harder, than our british lot, that seem to be almost to polite to the criminal, is this true or is it the tv crews trying to make a good program? :D personally i think our police in england need to be more assertive, then perhaps the offenders may think twice about commiting crimes, then again probably not!!!

Yes they do still exist, usually owned by private individuals and not trained at all. When the owner of the premises goes home the dogs are let out and left to guard the property, I'm not sure what the legal position is if someone does get in and injured. Ingrid