We have a Lucher cross collie he's 1 year 5 months old when we call him in the house he is good and comes to us straight away but out for walks when of lead its a nightmare it can take up 1 hour to get him back 
At the moment we are taking him to aglity classes on lead as of lead its as if the devil has got in him can anyone help

Hi

The first thing to remember is that dog's do not understand English - they have to be taught that come means come in all circumstances.  They do not relate what they learn in one place to what happens in another.

Do not let your dog off the lead - use it to teach him recall in various places and make yourself more interesting than whatever is going on around him.  A good way to do this is to use a ball on a rope and give him a good play when he comes to you or use some really tasty treats - both of which should be used solely for recall training.

Then use a long line to let him have a bit more freedom but where you still have control.

The use of a whistle can be useful in these situations - ofcourse the dog will have to be trained that a whistle means something good, and it's a good idea to blow it at home before every meal to get the dog used to the idea :)  Then take him out on a lead and give him a good reward each time you blow it and he comes back to you - use the lead to encourage this if necessary.  It may even be better if you walk him on an empty stomach (ofcourse you know that a dog should NEVER be walked immediatly after a meal anyway ;)) and take his normal meal to use as a reward in small portions. 

When out on a walk, NEVER end the walk in the same place - your dog will get wise to you and come every time except at the 'end of walk' place. Never give a reward before you have hold of the collar at least, preferably attach the lead as well, you can always take the lead off again.  Always call your dog back to you frequently, and then reward him by letting him run freely again, this is a reward for the dog in itself........ Don't hold the lead when calling the dog back, he knows this is going to mean the end of the fun!  And don't call and call your dog - if he doesn't come the first time (or at a pinch the second time) then he's not listening to you, and it's HIM making the decision about when the end of the walk has come, and not you.........

I'd be a little bit wary about neck damamge to a lurcher type dog when using a long line.....

>in the house he is good and comes to us straight away but out for walks when of lead its a nightmare it can take up 1 hour to get him back --- can anyone help? <

davedee

1. - Yes I can help and you can start to get a reliable recall with the dog you describe within one training session with him, if you have enough patience to read this reply  through then you have enough patience to train him, if you do not have that level of patience you probably do not have enough patience to train him.

2.- Your legal position, his life and consequent welfare are at serious risk if you let him off - under various dangerous dogs acts - including the 1991 DDA - he is classed as 'dangerously out of control'.
Penalties vary and at best you can be ordered to keep him on a lead for the rest of his life + a hefty fine, that is if you got off lightly. It can and usually is much more serious, especially if he frightens someone who does not like dogs.

2. - His welfare, his psychological health, WILL ( as opposed to might ) suffer immensely and his quality of life, your own quality of life and your family will be such that it does not bear thinking about, if he is not free to run around.

Your relationship with a companion dog confined to the lead for life will become a daily chore and burden for the remaining years of his VERY short life with you and running, sniffing and walking round off lead, UNDER CONTROL., is the greatest reward for all dogs, it is their natural reward outlet, keeping them on a lead causes thousands of punishments per exercise, each time he and so many dogs, become a prisoner at the end of a tether and have to live an unnatural life, short though it may be, things like treats means he will not be coming back for you, just the treat and ONLY if himself has nothing better he wants to do, I used them as a kid for something and they are very good for some things,useless with others such as your dog, as you describe him.

3, - Remains of some kind of domestic dog have been dated to Neanderthal times. There has been one consistent problem with dogs best described as - 'a bit lively and which like to be active and interact intensely with their environment' - ( not all dogs but hundreds of thousands of dogs in UK ) and the problem you have is the same problem - 'distance control' and 'training'. Millions of dogs must have been killed, lost or ended up in rescues because their owners could not cope with them anymore.

Whoever solved the problem of distance control -especially recall when the dog is running round enjoying  (rewarding) himself would - be the worlds richest businessman entrepreneur

Yes you can get a reliable recall with your dog if you add a static stimulation e-collar as one of his training aids. The first modern collar came out in 1998 and it has transforming the world of dog training, they have become more and more well known amongst pet dog owners and this past year they have given more dogs the freedom without any stress whatsoever than any other training aid.

In the process they are now affecting the income of those whose methods end up with so many dogs confined to the lead year in year out and no serious hope of control. They have a lot of selling to do for their product because they have to convince people there is better of being on the lead indefinitely, with no commitment, refund or guarantee from them that the dog will ever be allowed and able to live a natural life and run free, with all the welfare costs that involves.

I don't know where you are but if you are in the S East I have sent you a phone number of a behaviourist who does a guaranteed recall within one for SOME dogs, without any stress at all. If you want to call him  and go watch a lesson or two you can get in touch and you will be giving your dog lifelong, natural reward exercise, the greatest reward any dog can have, instead of the confines in which you have to keep him right now -

I don't train anyone anymore but there are two of here who are national specialists with modern remote static training collars-me or Lou Castle, he's a US specialist, unfortunately no one else knows anything about them here.

It is an interesting point to note that there was quite a fuss about them in the recent up dating of the animal laws. The government was exposed to cranks and extremists and more so business people who charge a fortune to pet owners by almost indefinite length programs, taking money each week, for things such as recall and the dog rarely gets off the lead in the end anyway.

They wanted to ban collars for their own commercial reasons, they also 'groomed' many innocent pet owners as well, but the government very soon realised they were made of cranks, extremists and those whose business interests would be affected by the ever increasing popularity of e-collars.

Instead of bothering with e-collars the government tightened up and brought in new laws to control cranks and extremists and made no restrictions on e-collars because of the vast amounts of evidence given to them of dogs whose welfare interests had made marathon leaps for the better as the result of an e-collar, so the extremists ended up with laws covering them instead, what comes around goes around.

Anyway, I have PM'd that trainer and also a web site.
Good Luck.

Unlike some people, the majority of us are able to train our dogs, some to a high level, without the use of electric/static collars which may have a place in aversive therapy when the situation is serious enough to warrant it, but certainly do not in general training.

Teaching something as basic as a recall where your dog should always be pleased to come to you does not warrant it, and in the majority of hands will do a lot more damage to the relationship with your dog than good as the timing has to be very precise and that comes with training experience.  They should only be used by very experienced trainers who generally do not need them anyway as they can achieve their ends by other means.

One of the secrets of a recall is always be pleased that you dog has come to you and never tell him off when he arrives.  I should have mentioned above that if you use a long line do not use a check or half check collar unless it is dead-locked (cannot tighten)

I think the whistle idea is a very great idea, especially as your Lurcher sounds like it has a long range (goes off for an hour ) I would go as far as to say its an essential adition. Here's some info on whistles, some people find it useful others already know it, hope it helps.

With dogs which have a fairly long travelling range they are best trained to a whistle as well as vocal command. The reason is because when any mammal predator is in a predatory chase or any other activity which interests it there is a sensory narrowing. This also applies to dogs at short range with normal drive activity, the higher the degree of drive activity the narrower the sensory perception and the dog has less awareness of sound.

There are vast differences in the wave frequency of individual human voices and many people find them selves going hoarse after only one hard shout or not loud enough to begin with. A whistle will penetrate the narrowing of the hearing sense in situations the voice will not and what needs to be taken into account is the fact that different breeds vary in which frequency/whistle is best for them.

If you use a good quality whistle the broadcast frequency is usually around 350Mhz and will penetrate the sensory narrowing when the human voice will not. Certain whistles will out range the human voice by 3/4 of a mile or more. One of the Acme dog whistles has an adjustable broadcast frequency range of between 650Mhz and around 1300 Mhz depending on weather conditions and dog the range for a dog is supposed to be around a mile and half .

Wind dramatically decreases range of all noises, wind and rain can reduce the voice to only a few yards, blowing a whistle or vocal commands can be dangerous in winds as the dog might easily be directed away from you because it heard the sound down or up wind. Woods are a big danger, the sound waves bounce around and again the dog can be heading in the opposite direction and each blow sends it further away. For dogs with this type of behaviour they should be trained to a down on a whistle or an audio beep from an e - collar (better still) and use a tracker to pinpoint them whilst they wait in a down.

Remember in summer woods your dog could be lying down 20 yards away on a down stay whilst you head off in the other direction looking for it. I recommend a tracker for these sort of very high risk dogs.

There are two makes of whistles available in the UK which are worth buying and suitable for dogs, the 'Fox40' and a variety of 'Acme' whistles. When you train a dog to a whistle the dog is actually trained to that frequency and decibel range, a dog can identify that particular whistle with outright accuracy.

With these two makes the technology is such that the whistles they make are precision instruments and if you replace 5 years later there will be no difference in the sound to the dog. Fox and Acme whistles not get waterlogged as you blow and maintain a consistent frequency range ( the harder you blow the range goes higher ), if you loos one and replace it with the same model the sound is precisely the same . If you buy a different make or model of whistle the broadcast frequency is different and you will usually find a reduction in the dogs willingness to respond and some do not respond at all to another whistle, you may have train again.

There is a problem with the Acme whistles, they 'blow out' meaning as you blow harder the sound simple disappears, I have deliberately tried to do that with both Fox40 models and found it impossible. 'Blowing out' can be serious problem, remember your dogs life might be at stake in some situations.

For that reason I use the Fox 40 classic 115 decibels with a mouthpiece holder, the Fox 40 Micro is 120 decibels but it is not, for me, very comfortable and the shape is such that it slips a bit. Their Acme equivalent is the Tornado T2000, all have a range in fairly good weather conditions of around 3/4 to 1mile and more for many dogs.

The Acme dog whistles might be preferred by many users but apart from the high frequency dog whistle they do not have the range of either the Acme Tornado 2000 or the Fox40. The Acme high frequency (silent) has a very good reputation but I tried it and found it did not have a good range at all for my dog, I also did not like the fact that I could hardly hear it, I found that confusing and it also has the Acme blow out problem, even so I seem to be the odd one out and it's possible I did not give enough training time and distance, all other stories I have heard are good ones, except the Acme blow out part. If I try again I will update this.

I have actually tested my Fox40 with my bitch in a real situation of app1/2 mile in a chase situation, I could only just make out she was still going away, I recalled with the Fox and she turned first blow and came back, I had reached a point where I thought she might not hear it so did not take a chance on her going any further. Light breeze, no rain, flat landscape, so in good conditions.

Fox
http://www.fox40whistles.co.uk/index.shtml

Acme
http://www.acmewhistles.co.uk/xcart/customer/home.php

The rest is down to training.
Deniscarthy©2005

Ok thanks to all  a few good tips for us to try and we will stick with it

many thanks

>Unlike some people, the majority of us are able to train our dogs, some to a high level, without the use of electric/static collars

No one has said anything about you or your training.  Without knowing either Davdee or me you make this rude statement hinting that neither of us can train a dog without an Ecollar.  I can and have many times.  I'm sure the same is true of Davedee

> when the situation is serious enough to warrant it, but certainly do not in general training.

This owner describes her dog as a "nightmare" and says that it can "take up an hour to get him back."  I'd call that quite serious.  During that time he can easily run into the street and/or put a scare into enough people so that they'll report him. 

>Teaching something as basic as a recall where your dog should always be pleased to come to you does not warrant it

If the owner can get it done without it, that's great.  But only the owner can decide if this dog's behavior "warrant(s) it." 

>and in the majority of hands will do a lot more damage to the relationship with your dog than good

Doing a search on the Internet will reveal a plethora of places to learn how to use the tool.  Used properly it won't damage the relationship, instead the dog will come to regard the owner as a new best friend. 

>as the timing has to be very precise and that comes with training experience

The timing required is no more or less than with any other tool.  If you can use a clicker (where the timing required is much more precise) you can use an Ecollar. 

I may not know Denis (Davedee, Avaunt, assorted other identities etc etc) personally, but know of people who saw his dog work with and without his collar a few years ago.  I was informed that when the dog was wearing it it obeyed him, when he was asked to remove the collar the dog ignored him.  I was also on the receiving end of his internet stalking by his various identities, and lies which have given me an opinion of him which could be very difficult to change.

Strangely enough I made a general statement about training - but if the cap fits then please feel free to wear it. 

If it takes an hour to get a dog back then why let it run free in the first place?  There are otherways to exercise a dog without letting it run free.

Doing an internet search may produce a plethora of places which teach you how to use an electric collar but "book" learning and real life are two very different things.  Most companion dog owners who have never seriously trained a dog just do not have the timing to be able to use an e-collar (and many get the clicker timing wrong as well)  Both take practice to use properly and an ecollar should never be the first tool reached for by someone who has never trained a dog, IMO they should only be used in exceptional circumstances by experienced dog handlers, not by someone who thinks it is a magic cure for everything.  Most people who want a "quick fix" are not going to spend the time learning how to use it anyway.

Christine well said. :-)

That is always the thing , if people put the time in most of these things would not been needed.   A lot don't and a quick fix is not the best answer.

Kerioak

>I may not know Denis (Davedee, Avaunt, assorted other identities etc etc) personally, but know of people who saw his dog work with and without his collar a few years ago. 

I was informed that when the dog was wearing it it obeyed him, when he was asked to remove the collar the dog ignored him.  <

Davedee
Well one thing about the net it seems a very easy place to sit down, read a lie about oneself and then sue for 'suffering a loss' of various kinds and this is a clear cut case. IF someone made the statement above to you they are lying AND - you are obliged, in law, to 'provide me with a reasonable duty of care' - and obviously check out the validity of such statements because, if you have noticed only YOU have made any such statement for which you and you alone are liable in law, no one has said any such thing except you and your statement is false in its entirety.

The only place you are talking about is at the S West Dobermann club SchH demo about 3 years ago, and I knew, vaguely, one person there who is also connected to you, he said some complimentary things about your book, his name is David  Stafford of Heimdall Dobermanns near Myrther and having just spoken to him and informed him I will take him to court as my witness, he is not best pleased, neither will others from S Wales SchH club be who were there on that day.

You might also note, that as Denis carthys name has been mentioned many times, with people on many posts saying Denis Carthy is me as you have named 'Denis', unusually spelt with one 'N' it is resonable to assume that your liable is against him. Some posters have said  Lou Castle is Denis Carthy, I do not know where that leaves him.

However, for my own legal purposes, I now demand that you do as follows:
, (1) Withdraw the entire statement regarding any dog of mine regarding work and e-collars.
(2) That you state clearly and unambiguously that the statement you have made is totally untrue in its entirety.
(3) I demand that you publicly apologise for making the false statement in the first place.
(4) The above 3 demands to be complied with forwith.

Kerioak 09.05.05 08:57
I may not know Denis (Davedee, Avaunt, assorted other identities etc etc) personally, but know of people who saw his dog work with and without his collar a few years ago.  I was informed that when the dog was wearing it it obeyed him, when he was asked to remove the collar the dog ignored him.

davedee
The author and sole owner of the above statment, christine phillips, has made a wholly untrue statement and she alone is responsible for the satement, the statment made by Christine Phillips is a lie and is deliberatly designed and intended to decieve, illustrating the quality of its author.

Davedee, you've said many times that you aren't Denis Carthy. Kerioak was talking about Denis Carthy's dog and it's poor recall without an ecollar. Leave it to Denis to confirm or deny the matter - as you assure us you're not Denis then it's nothing to do with you.
:)

I think best to cool it folks and lock the thread.  Maybe needing to put the collar thing to bed permanently...

You must learn to agree to disagree on various personal beliefs. :-)

Blue
I think best to cool it folks and lock the thread. 

Davedee
The thread should not be locked, have you not read or understood the serious welfare risks to the posters  dog-it runs off for an hour and the owner is living a nightmare, for heavens sake blue, whoever you are.

Have some care this poster may come back for help, the fact that christine phillips tried to change the topic still leaves the poster in ONE BIG mess and the post should not be locked because christine phillips behaves in character, although I did PM the OP a real trainer.

Lurchers are lurchers at the end of the day, depending on what is in there breeding will depend on how easy they will be to train.  My parents have a deaf lurcher (believed to be saluki / whippet / collie ) she was mega obedient when a pup but can be a real nightmare now, the thing with lurchers is the chase instinct, my parents dog will chase everything including cars they have to be so careful where they let her off.  When you say it can take up to an hour to get yours back does it disapear or just keep out of your reach ? Lily (my parents lurcher) has her days when she doesnt want to be put back on the lead so will run circles round them, or sometimes she will chase off after a deer and come back 30 minutes later :rolleyes:  you have to be very careful where you let lurchers (or any type of sight hound for that matter) off the lead.  My parents are lucky in that near us we have a special place for dog walking which is miles of woodland and fields all fenced off so the dogs cant get onto roads, its an absolute haven for the dogs.  I would take it right back to basics with recall on a lead whilst out and take it from there, you may never have complete recall because being sight hounds lurchers love to chase and if they arent deaf already ( ;) ) will go deaf when on the chase.

It has been suggested to my parents to use an e-collar on lily but this would be the most stupid thing you could do to a dog like her, she (like many lurchers) is very sensitive and a shock from a collar would probably send her off in the oppostie direction rather than come back :(

good luck :)

Dennis,

You do set yourself up as an expert, yet when someone questions the validity of your electric collar methods (in this case, someone who apparently  saw you and saw your dog ignore you, after all you have said about these collars being wonder devices) then I'm sorry, but to me ijt's interesting.

I would feel it was perfectly fine if someone saw ME have terrible recall problems, and said that on the board,  if i have been saying or inferring that my dog is good at recall; and if i had been suggesting a "gadget" that would "work" . It does call into question the abilities of the trainer, whoever that trainer may be. Of course, it would have to be genuine and I can't think why anyone would need to tell untruths about that, to be honest. Can you?

The problems of the poor OP (whose thread was taken over) will/should be sorted by some of the advice given, often simply going back to basics does wonders.

Lindsay

[deleted]

Davedee

Please would you just clarify whether you are Denis Carthy or merely a third party. I'm finding this whole thread very difficult to follow :(

Thank you

Daisy

Maybe he's got a twin :D

Lindsay
X

Davedee,

Although you seem to bend over backwards to help poeple overcome their dogs problems as it effects the dogs quality of life and I agree with you wholy on that point. I feel at the same time you are allienating yourself with the way you posts seem to come through so strongly and feel that infrequent posters like me may be put off posting out ideas in case we say anything accidently that may cause you offence.
I wonder how many others out there feel the same way.
Aimi.

>Davedee

The thread should not be locked, have you not read or understood the serious welfare risks to the posters  dog-it runs off for an hour and the owner is living a nightmare, for heavens sake blue, whoever you are.

Have some care this poster may come back for help,  although I did PM the OP a real trainer.<

I am Blue :-))) honestly !!  Just an everyday Gal who gets a puppy then does everyday basic training and teaches my dog to come from a young age in my back yard.   Come on Davedee if your or anyone let a dog off and it didn't come back for a hour would you let it off again ;-) in an open space.  I wouldn't until I was confident it would come back :-)  

Lindsay
"in this case, someone who apparently saw you and saw your dog ignore you,"

davedee
No, you need to read the posts properly ONLY Kerrioak has said that, no one else,and a made up name is no good either if that happens. Maybe now she have some feedback from one the SchH members who was there and who I have called, David Stafford, a judge as well.

I think you and any others should call him and see what he says, he is assocated with Christine Phillips, he supported one of her health books. I have allready called him so anyone can check it out with him.

If you find the S Wales Dobermann club from google and then look up Heimdall Dobermanns David Stafford is who you can speak to, he was there.

Apart from that it is a lie and she's clearly using/abusing the functionalty of the net for that purpose, not difficult to do if function with a set of sub standard ethics, but, thats the net.

I suggest you read posts properly and you will se only one idetifiable person has made the statement, Christine Phillips of Kerioak Dobermanns, and her statement, as I have said, is a lie.

No use other non-identifiable cranks coming on there has to be identification for any statement to be taken up, I did mention that cranks were involved in my first post, it's up to them to display themselves.

When was this demo?

Lindsay

Lindsay

>when was this demo<

Davedee
Yes I did not make it clear enough-I dont remember but the only [person there who is connected to Christine Phillips, Kerioak, is David Stafford a dog judge, he knows Christine Phillips and he was there and he was also a memebr of the S Wales SchH team, I was not. So he is the only one I know of who as been speaking to her and you and anyone else should call him, easy to find as I have said, below.

If you find the S Wales Dobermann club from google and then look up Heimdall Dobermanns David Stafford is who you can speak to, he was there and he knows her.

Davedee, I'm sure Denis Carthy (who you said in your post of 04.04.05 that you've met only once) is perfectly capable of sorting this out for himself, and doesn't need you to wade in on his behalf.
:)

:O

Divedee, if Kerioak is making it up I am curious as to how you have managed to pinpoint the occasion that she is talking about, sure someone there knew her but don't lots of people in the obedience world not lots of other people?  If you are Denis Carthy why are you so coy about it even going so far as to say he had given you copywrite permission on something recently, why didn't you just say 'I wrote the piece myself'

PS  

You have to agree that if you ( not just you personally) ram anything in life down someones throat too much then it is natural instinct to find something to challenge these opinions.   You have more than made your point about how successful these collars are  so if they work let people feedback they do let the proof be in the pudding ..:-)))    I have to say I have never even looked at them as they just don't interest me whether they work or not to be honest. 

Blue

>I have to say I have never even looked at them as they just don't interest me whether they work or not to be honest. <

davedee
Quite a legitimate comment IMO.