Hi. Just came accross this site and I am finding it really interesting. I have a 3 year old toy poodle, he is black with a white paw and some white on his chest. When I bought him he was the last in the litter as nobody wanted him and the breeder said that she was unwilling to kc reg him. That didn't bother me as he is a pet and not for showing anyway, she did give me his pedigree history for interest. What I want to know is, because of his markings is he the offspring of a black male and a white female, or vice versa? Is this what you get when you cross two colours? I didn't think you could mix them. Or, (my mind is whiring now) Is this how a chocolate and silver poodle is made? Do any of you poodle breeders out there mix colours? and if so is my dog a common occurrence?  I've never seen one appart from mine. - Maybe its just because he's special. Hope you can answer my question, I'm dying to know.

Thank you x

Hi Guest

Firstly, there are two types of white in dogs, pigmented and unpigmented.  The solid white that occurs in Poodles is the pigmented type (this is why is is not often pure white).  Whenever white occurs with another colour, as in your dog, it is the unpigmented type.  It is also possible to get solid unpigmented whites eg Bull Terriers.

The two types of white are inherited separately and if you bred one of each together you would be unlikely to get white pups.

Even though the white markings that you have is undesirable in the breed, the genes that cause it are still present and are recessive so white markings crop up every now and then and are not associated with any solid white ancestors in the pedigree.  Minor white markings like this also crop in solid coloured breeds eg GSD, Rotweiller, Irish Water Spaniel.

So to answer your question, your dog may very well be from black x white parents but that's not why he has white markings.  His white will come from both (or possibly just one) parents as a recessive or "modifier" gene/s.

There is also another explanation for the odd occurrence of minor white markings, to do with foetal pigment cell migration, but the simple answer above is the most likely.

Julie
ps I think he is special :-)

I'm so glad that these markings are allowed in my breed which are related to the Poodle.  I think that they are gorgeous markings :d

Even thought I think the world of my poodle (oliver) some people do look down their noses just because of these markings. I have been to so many different dog clippers as I am sick of being TOLD he is a cross breed. when I assure them he isn't, they won't have it. I dread clipping day as its always the same - "here's that lady I told you about with the cross poodle" or "could you just hang on for a few minutes cos my friend will be here in a minute and he can tell you he's a cross". Sometimes you feel like your in the circus freak show. All I can say is, it's a good job dogs don't speak or understand english, they wouldn't appreciate insults. Anyway I have just been offered the chance to take on another toy poodle as her family are emigrating next week. She is 2 and called Lacy. Thankfully Oliver has taken to her and vice versa. Now he has someone to stand up for him when he has his day at the clippers.

Thank you for replying, your information was really interesting. I found the breeders phone number and she told me that both parents were black but this had happened only once before Oliver. x

The thing is they used to cull the "mismarked" ones and even today I wonder if this still goes on as I've never ever seen one although I've been told about them by people who see my dogs and say that they used to have a Poodle with the same markings.  Isn't it sad that although these are natural occuring colours that they are not accepted.  I wonder who decided that these markings weren't acceptable for a breed?

I also have Pomeranians and the most perfect one that we ever had in every way was a black an tan who wasn't accepted in the eyes of the Pom world.

Sometimes there are perfectly good reasons for excluding certain colours in breeds eg white is disallowed in GSDs as they were originally sheep herders and needed to be distinguishable from a distance.  In Livestock Guarding Breeds eg Maremma (with sheep) Estrela (with goats) they need to blend in for camouflage.  And some colours are excluded for health reasons eg excessive white and merle.

But mostly it's just fad in the show world which makes some colours unpopular and such a shame it is too IMHO!  Most breeds have miscoloured puppies appearing every now and then and as perrodeagua says, they were probably culled off more often in the past.

Anyone insisting Oliver is a cross is just showing their ignorance of dog breeding :-)

Julie
(((hugs for Oliver)))

You are not allowed to register mismark poodles with the KC as the breed standard states that you are allowed solid colours only eg. white, black, silver, cream, apricot, red, blue, brown.  Mismarks in poodles usually occur in mixed colour matings, more so in miniatures and toys as it is not so common place in these two sizes to mix colours.  Standard poodle breeders over the years have mixed colours frequently which seems to results in less mismarks in litters although you may get both solid colours in the same litter.

Hi fifi

If you are seeing more mismarks in litters where there is one white parent, there is an explanation for this.

Solid white is genotype ee in the Poodle and if this dog also happens to have the genes for unpimented white markings sp (or si with - modifyers), you wouldn't know because he is already white but genetically he is a mismark.  Mated to a solid black KK EE SS, you could produce black with minor white markings - KK Ee Ssp.

In Oliver's case, both his parents are most likely KK E Ssi - black carrying minor white markings.

I do believe there are some piebald Poodles being bred, in the States I think so piebald is in the breed.

Fifi There are no disqualifying colours in the KC standard & you can register them with the KC but they will be registered as colour-non standard

I think there are only a couple of breeds that the KC will not register if they have not been health tested or have failed the health tests-Irish Setters come to mind as one & of course unless permission has been given for breeding from a bitch over 8 or who has hadmore than 6 litters,  the puppies would not be registerable.

Otherwise the KC will register any dog of any colour or any breed with or without health tests being done