I did ask this in reply to the neuter thread: what would you say is the highest and lowest possible intake of protein a dog should have to make them less hyper if indeed it is the case with food? Aslo what dry food would people consider to be good at giving low protein levels?

Mark

I would say it varies dog to dog, if you suspect that is the cause of a dog's hyperness (and often I think it is just the exuberance of youth or a breed trait) then you lower it and see what the result is, I would doubt any commercial food was below an adequate level.

I have yet to be convinced that "high protein" per se causes "hyperactivity"................

I have not seen any studies that do not include other factors which cloud the results.  For example the study I have seen looking at this subject included ingredients such as cereals, in particular maize.

Maize is tryptophan deficient and therefore may skew results that are particularly looking at the addition of tryptophan in the diet.

Also both dairy and grain products can have an adverse effect on some predisposed dogs.

Casomorphine is derived from the digestion of casein and exorphine from the digestion of gluten. These substances, together with hormones, hormone like substances and pheromones are naturally present in many dog foods. All have been scientifically shown to alter normal dog behaviour. Casomorphine and exorphines which are provided by milk proteins and cereals respectively, can trigger behaviour in dogs not unlike giving them morphine or other opiates.

There has been a lot of research done on this with autistic children and schizophrenics and they have found that they can interfere with the activity of neurotransmitters.

Then we have to remember that not all protein is equal; animal products and soya are complete proteins, others, like cereal are incomplete.

Then there is the bio-availability factor, not all proteins are equally well metabolised by the body.  You could have a food that was 100% protein but if it was composed of undigestible material such as leather, fur or feathers etc it would be of no value.

When calculating the protein content of commercial foods one first has to remove the moisture content to make a meaningful comparison; for example a dry food may be 90% dry matter and 10% moisture and a wet food 25% dry matter and 75% moisture.

The first will say it contains 21% crude protein and the latter 11% leading the unsuspecting consumer to believe that the former is higher in protein content; when actually, after removing the moisture, it is the latter which has a higher protein content, circa 40 - 48% sometimes.

Add to this the fact that comparison studies are not measuring like with like ie the foods do not contain the same ingredients, quality or completeness of protein and you are setting yourself up for a headache! :D :D

thats quite intersting tohme.Maze seems to be the thing to think about rather than protein.Maybe thats where people go wrong in some cases.Thinking about the protein content rather than the maze.Could I ask as to what you feed your dogs on and reasons behind it?Do you feel that this cuts down on their hyperness as such if they ever were to be that it?

Mark

I feed raw, have done for nearly 4 years now.

I changed for many reasons.  I believe, but have no scientific evidence, that the risk of GDV is reduced which is a subject close to my heart.  I also believe that as the dog is categorised scientifically as a carnivore (rather than the dictionary definition) and having studied its anatomy, that it is not equipped to efficiently metabolise processed, domestic grain.

I have tried to base the diet I offer on an "ideal" prey model, ie species appropriate to it.

I rehomed a dog that could not tolerate grain at all, and once off it, both his behaviour and overall health improved dramatically (he was rather an extreme case in more ways than one).

He was truly hyperactive and anyone who has lived with a truly hyperactive dog (rare, he had the canine equivalent of ADHD), will never want to repeat the experience...............................

I know a lot of dogs whose behaviour has improved on raw but we have not identified if it is because of the lack of grains, a particular grain, additives, colourings etc or a combination of these.

Personally I believe maize (corn) to be a completely inappropriate food for dogs.  Unfortunately most of the "premium" dog foods are maize based......................................

Although no scientific evidence I do believe it to be true tohme.Its the same with us humans,some of us have an intollerance to wheat based foods so I guess its the same with our dogs.Im feeding Xapper on Chappie complete at the moment but I have thought about feeding raw.One of my passed dogs was fed solely on tripe even though it stank the place out! What raw food do you feed yours on?I am quite keen to maybe give it a try with Xapper,complete food was never really my idea in the first place but it keeps the wife happy!

Mark

I feed tripe, lungs, liver, heart, kidneys, chicken, duck, turkey, pheasant, etc, lamb, pork, beef,
Raw veggies and fruit, live yoghurt, raw eggs,

Do you add a supliment to it at all like SA37? So if I was to start feeding Xaph on raw I would feed tripe (Stinks!) lungs,liver,heart,kidneys etc?
If you could give as much info as poss Id be thankful.

Mark

The only things I add are:

fresh clove of garlic every day
1000mg Vitamin C with bio-flavonoids
400 iu Natural Vitamin E
1000g of Fish Body Oil
Keepers Mix (basically Kelp and Alfalfa)

You would do best to read up on it first to ensure the correct phosphorus:calcium ratio.

I can recommend Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats by Kymythy Schulze, very easy to read, informs you of what dog needs and the sources and has sample diet plans.

I read and studied raw feeding for a year before I started........................

Cool thanks tohme,I shall go and have a look on amazon and see if its on there.I notice the garlic in there.I give Xaph garlic capsules everyday as I have found this helps keep them darn fleas down!

Mark

Marky i would also recommend "give your dog a bone" by ian billinghurst.

He explains the grain argument very well :)

Keepers Mix (basically Kelp and Alfalfa)

Tohme you have written this before,i cant remember seeing alfalfa listed as an ingredient in keepers mix. Nettles,celery seeds,lucerne are a few but i cant remember  alfalfa??

Frodo, Lucerne and Alfalfa = the same thing, different name........... ;)