Hello all :) My name is Sarah and I have a bit of a problem with my 10 month old GSD bitch Flory.She's a very excitable little girl and when out on walks and she sees people in the street she will pull to get to them all excitable.When someone goes to say hello she will jump up at them even when I give her the command to sit she will sit and then get back up to jump again.I have had her since she was 8months as a friend at works neighbour had to get rid if her.I have been taking her to training since I got her and she is progressing well.She doesnt seem to pay much notice of the people in training but if they do say hello she'll do the jumping 5 ft in the air trick!

Now I know that it is good to have a dog that loves everyone in sight but this is really getting me down.She mouths people when they try and stroke her although she does not do this or the jumping to myself or my elderly father who lives with me.

With other dogs she is the same,she's not aggresive to them in any way but if she sees one the other side of the road she will pull to get to it.

I walk her on a halter and she is great on this most of the time until she sees people or another dog 

Does anyone have some advice they could give me on how to go about this? I would be ever so greatful if someone could

Sarah+Flory

Jumping up = remove the person
Sitting down = stroke, titbit

Cause and effect, it takes dogs minutes to grasp this principle but you MUST be 100% consistent in training.

Enlist the people at dog club, get them to approach you, if she jumps they just turn and walk away, if she remains calm and sitting she gets titbit.

The beauty of this is that you do not have to give any commands.

Then reverse the order you approach people and the same thing happens, if she jumps just turn and walk away.

the best way to stop mouthing is to tease with food, if she jumps up and/or tries to mouth, lift it away, as soon as she sits, give food.

Again, commands are superfluous.  You can condition the dog to automatically sit when being approached, approaching others with this method.

Thats good if people want to approuch her and say hello but no good if people are just walking past as you are walking.Not everybody likes dogs Im afraid

Hence why I suggested using members of your training group............

Instead of looking for reasons why you cannot do something why not think about how you can?

For example, when my puppy was 7 weeks old I took him outside the shopping centre with a poster, please say hello and give my dog a treat but if he jumps up please walk away.

Worked a treat and also intrigued lots of people who went away with some ideas for their own dogs.

Just a suggestion, worked for me.

tohme thats a fab idea !!!

Great idea about the shopping center and the poster -  did you find most people understood about walking away? :)

Lindsay
X

Yep, they were mostly good, one or two weren't so I just walked away. :D :D :D

:D

Lindsay
X

My 10mth old Flatcoat is also very very friendly and tends to very gently mouth strangers, I have tried the food to distract him but I can't seem to make it work.  I know it sounds silly but could you explain in greater detail how you would do this.

Thanks

I am working really hard with his training but it seems to go to pot as soon as we add any distraction. I am walking him to meet as many dogs as possible 5 days a week then 2 walks with fewer dogs to give me a break, great advice I got from this board when I was having recall problems.

We had a similar problem, especially with children. Every time we came across someone I asked her to sit and wait. I then asked the children to ignore her. Once they had passed I clicked and rewarded her and we carried on. This changed the focus for her away from being made a fuss of everytime she met someone and has generally worked very well. When she is being really good she now does it off the lead when she meets someone. Cannot work out why Im not always there with a treat though :D

Hi sarah, are you sure you havent got my dog, because she is exactly the same as yours. i have tried everything. or so i thought until i read the replys. Very goods ones too :)
Jane

I would suggest walking her in town where there are quite a few people wondering around.She would get used to being ignored that way.I cant see how standing outside a shopping centre and asking people to stroke her would help only make things worse surely.If the dog thinks people=rewards and fuss then I could see it making her worse because she would be more inclined to want to meet people she sees on the street.A kinda reverse effect.
SarahG are there any places you could take her that are not that busy but busy enough for you to see a few people?

Mark

It is called teaching a dog self control Marky............

Self control? How could that be teaching a dog self control? I can see it does up to a point but as I said before it wouldnt teach the dog not to want to great people who are just passing by.It would teach the dog to be more eager to say hello to the joe bloggs who is passing the owner and dog along the street.

Mark

Quite the opposite, in fact! It teaches the dog that it only gets attention when it's sitting quietly and waiting, not making the advances.
:)

Sarah

> and I have a bit of a problem with my 10 month old GSD bitch Flory.<

davedee
Sorry Sarah but its not just a bit of a problem, your dogs at an age and the lively character you describe you should have started a formal obedience training course somewhere and some weeks ago by the sound of it.

The sort of methods you are being shown is already destroying your relationship with the dog, treats at that age is putting a barrier between the dog and you, it is only doing things for treats if there is nothing better for it to do, it is doing nothing for you at all.

If you do not teach it the command "leave" or "No", you are heading very fast for lifetime of misery for you and the dog. Every day almost on this board we have people in tears almost, living with stress during their waking hours, dreading to take the dog out because its pulling them everywhere when it wants to do and make no mistake, what you see as a friendly dog jumping at people will not be seen as a friendly dog when it jumps at a stranger, there could be serious legal problems if it does.

You need a complete and proper obedience course and the dog must be taught "No" or leave and everything else which gives you control, at the moment the dog is in control of everything, that's not training which works with your dog, if it did it already would have done so. You have not said so but my guess is that you are attending what's known as a 'positive or reward' class.

These classes are causing terrible problems for owners and dogs are suffering serious welfare problems because they cannot come off lead. Please copy and past the internal links below, you are heading into the situations in the links below yourself as the dog gets older. the links are nothing more than a small sample, the treats are just creating a barrier between you and the dog and the links below are all caused by positive training.

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=67652#fnp

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/35866.html

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/65050.html

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/59041.html

seawoods
My 10mth old Flatcoat is also very very friendly and tends to very gently mouth strangers, I have tried the food to distract him but I can't seem to make it work.  I know it sounds silly but could you explain in greater detail how you would do this.

Davedee
Bits of food just teach him that if he mouths strangers he then gets a choice of mouthing strangers or eating a bit of food or both. Leaveing things alone (strangers, picking things up etc) is done by teaching the dog the command of "No" or "Leave", the word does not matter only that he is taught 'leave; when told'.

The message you are giving him is-if you mouth strangers you can have a treat as well, he is basicaly being taught nothing except:
bad behaviour = reward.
Who suggested you did that?

Tohme

>Jumping up = remove the person  Sitting down = stroke, titbit Cause and effect, it takes dogs minutes to grasp this principle but you MUST be 100% consistent in training.<

Davedee
So if the dog is off lead at no more than ten yards and heading for a person how do you consistently remove the person and as the dog is ignoring tit bits anyway how to give it a tit but and maintain the 100% consistency needed?

in fact how do you give anything which it is ignoring even within hand reach-force feed?

Dennis said

<< these classes are causing terrible problems...>>

Such terrible problems that many of us are very happy with our dogs thank you Dennis.

I hope you are careful what references you give.
I remember on another site, you gave such references and one in particular i remember was very misleading as the owner took her staffie to a behaviourist and its fear aggression was solved very quickly.

Lindsay

I think, Davedee, if you reread the OP a little more carefully you will realise that her dog "pulled her over to people".

It would seem self evident that, if your dog is unattached, it can, therefore, not pull; as it has nothing to pull against.

Hope that has enlightened you.

As this is an educational board, as you pointed out on another post,  it is gratifying to be able to help you comprehend posts.

>you should have started a formal obedience training course somewhere and some weeks ago by the sound of it.<

This sounds "judgemental" and "condescending" to me, as per Mark R's post of 3.12.04.

Sorry, OP, this post is not directly helpful to you but I do hope you aren't feeling judged or criticised - I know that you posted because you realise you must do something to change your dog's behaviour and no-one needs to tell you that in any reply to it.

Best wishes.

Sarah
Does anyone have some advice they could give me on how to go about this?

Lilit
one needs to tell you that in any reply to it.

davedee
Hi Lillit,  good post.Sarah wants advice, what is your advice to Sarah?

Hello Davedee/Dennis

My advice re jumping up would have been the same as this post:

>Enlist the people at dog club, get them to approach you, if she jumps they just turn and walk away, if she remains calm and sitting she gets titbit.<

I like clicker training so it would be click and treat all four feet remaining on the floor.  If the dog jumps up at any point the person walks away, so there is an unrewarding consequence to the jump.  I have seen this work - it took four failed jumps for the dog to get the message.

Re the pulling towards other people in the street, what about teaching Flory to look at your face when you say 'watch me', which would be incompatible with pulling towards people?  This can be taught by clicker training.  Start by clicking and treating for any eye contact in a quiet environment, then as the rewarded behaviour increases, start saying 'watch me' to get it on cue.  Then you could gradually increase the distraction level, working up to people in the street - at first you would have to manage it so that there was quite a lot of distance between you and the other person to enable Flory to succeed but as she learns the correct behaviour, you will be able to reduce the distance.

Davedee, I would have left this to the more experienced trainers and posters but you asked me so I have responded.

Davedee how would I go about solveing this?You are right I used reward based training with Flo and yes it does work up to a point but this is starting to really get me down now.She knows the leave command,for example if Im playing tuggy with her which I might add is my toy and it gets taken away once we have finished the game.I can command her to leave it and she will.With the people and dogs its a differant matter.She goes deaf and no treats or toys can get her mind back to me.

Sarah

SarahG
You are right I used reward based training with Flo and yes it does work up to a point

Davdee
Hi Sarah, glad you posted again. I think there is an awful lot of misuse of terminology flying around
especially when it comes to the terms such as, negative, reward punishment etc, these words have in fact been turned into commercially persuasive terms 'attarcted to one concept' 'adverse to another'

I know of no other methods of training which hold more reward than what I use now, ALL, training MUST have more reward inherant in its application or the dog simply will not train.

SarahG
but this is starting to really get me down now.

Davedee
I really am sorry about that but to be honest I have not browsed these boards for a long time until recently and to be honest I find it VERY upsetting to read so much frustration, anxiety and destroyed relationships between dog and owner. I read some posts and all I can imagine is some innocent well intentioned pet owner living an emotional nightmare, worried to death about their dog and then, despite everything which is staring everyone in the face, they are advised to continue the same way and make things worse by just a few.

SarahG
She knows the leave command,for example if Im playing tuggy with her which I might add is my toy and it gets taken away once we have finished the game.

Davedee
Sarah, the "leave" you are using is the foundation stone of all good training, someone somewhere has also explained the importance of the training object being yours and not the dogs, I use a ball on a rope or a piece of denim and in addition they have a toy of their own always given sometime after any training use of my toy/prey object.

SarahG
I can command her to leave it and she will. With the people and dogs its a different matter. She goes deaf and no treats or toys can get her mind back to me.
Davedee,
Yes, you have one side of the exercise, you have done very well and maintained consistency, like so many I read on these boards all you seem to need is some crucial but very simple excersises taught to you, you havemost of it, but if a training method is missing that one or two vital pieces the whole thing can fall part like a house with a main beam missing and disator is always just a thought away.

I am sorry I have no time to write more now or until quite a bit later but I will get back to you but based on what you have written, it sems to me that have worked out that most things are right and there is just that something missing to make it complete, if that is your thinking then I think your thinking is correct. What area/county are you?
Regards DD

Hi Davedee
Thanks for your reply.You are right,there is something missing to make it complete.Over all Flo is quite well behaved at home and is very good at the training club I attend.I can work her on the floor and the other dogs and people dont seem to bother her.She loves to work bless her. The problem comes when we are outside walking and people pass on the same side as us or on the opposite side.The same goes for the dogs. If I stop and speak to someone in the street she goes wild wanting to say hello, I can make her sit which she will do then she will get back up again and do the jumping tail going ten to the dozen thing.
This doesnt really happen at training its mainly outside when this occurs.With the my toy thing,its something I have always done with my dogs to get them to work.Its the I want something out of you before we play thing which has always worked for me.It seems though with Flo as much as she loves her toy no amount of trying to  gett her attention with it while walking down the road with people passing by works!

Im near Lewes East sussex if thats any help

Regards
Sarah

I'm interested in hearing DD's suggestion of what it is that's missing in this situation, though I have a crisp fiver already bet on what I think it'll turn out to be! ;)

Sarah, I've not had the problem of a dog pulling to get to a person (unless it's when we're coming back from a walk and they see my husband's home from work so they pull to greet him) - they're not bothered by strangers. But one of them used to be very interested in other dogs and would pull towards them, and I found that making him 'sit' and 'look at me' calmed him a lot and he's now 100% better. If you haven't tried that with Flory it's worth a go.
:)

There's a very good trainer, at Eastbourne  - he really IS good - if you want details, do PM me :)

To be honest, it sounds as if you are almost there, but need some more help. For example, does your dog Wait?
Have you tried asking for a Sit (as you say she does this) and then adding Wait? If she is trained to enjoy this, (and it will take time to get her really good so that she has that sefl control) she should do what you suggest.

Keeping her eye contact and if necessary stepping slightly in her path will help until she is steady.

I agree too that self control exercises are very very helpful. I enjoy asking my Terv to Sit and Wait, while i go and hide her toy, (must be a high value toy or article) and then send her to find it. (Best sent into the wind to start).

Or simply train to Sit and Wait whilst you throw the toy/ball etc.

Start small with small distances and gradually build up distance toy is thrown, duration of Wait, etc etc...make it fun!

Try not to let the dog get the toy if it breaks the Wait.

This is probably how I would overcome the problem - teaching an alternative behaviour which is inherently more rewarding to her.

If she has a real desire to meet/greet people, could she also be rather submissive and feel this is what she needs to do?
Could even be lack of confidence.

Hth
Lindsay
X

Jeangenie I bet your bet is correct! ;)

Lindsay
X

Lindsey and  Jeangenie  thank you very much for youre replys.Lindsey, I can make Flo sit and wait if I throw her a toy and she will do this.I can also throw her toy send her after it and then shout leave and make her come back to me for a treat then resend her to bring the toy back to me. This I have done with no destractions and I reckon that if there were any distractions she would not do this.
Hmm I wouldnt say she is submissive,when greeting someone that comes to the house she will go up to them and jump tail wagging ears back but this is normal behavour I find as my other dog Jex used to do this all bar the jumping! She is just VERY excitable and thats what the problem is.She does know self control as I can make her wait while I throw her toy and then when I am ready release her.
I will give what both of you have said a go.I can only try.
Thanks again
Regards
Sarah

Also, 10 months is still very young - after all, in showing she'd only just be out of Minor Puppy and in Puppy. Has she had a season? Is she spayed?

Good point re the seasons: I suspect your girl has been doing this for a little while, but imminent seasons can mean training goes out the window ... my bitch had no attention span for 3 weeks prior to her first season! It was strange as it was the first time i had experienced this with a young bitch :)

It may be that you need to gradually train your girl to slowly be more obedient by slowly adding distractions, but as I say it will take time. I would set up special sessions for training this, and set her up for success as much as possible.

Ensure she is doing an exercise perfectly in the home, then the garden, then on a quiet walk, then in a slightly busier area, and so on. Does take time ;)

Dog training IS sometimes hard work, and it's hard not to feel a failure when things seem to be going wrong. but wishing you luck with your girl!

Lindsay
X

Sarah

> Im near Lewes East sussex if thats any help<

Davedee,
Yes, it more than helps, it could be the answer. There is someone in the Crawley area, he calls himself a behaviourist, I wish he wouldn't it's just a commercial term and not recognised as anything in particular.

He does belong to one of the organisations, I think it's called the Professional Dog Trainers association, from Stockport, I would never normally recommend anyone to APDT, APDC or the one he belongs to.

However he is an exception, he has trained dogs most of his life, he also does expert witness in court cases, he does guaranteed work e.g. a recall in an hour or heel in an hour and I think some other things and really he joined the organisation like most these days because a few letters is a selling point to pet owners but he does not and never would confine himself to any single method or the "All dogs train this way" organisations such as APDT or APBC.

He has classes are groups or one-to-one or one off lessons, he seems totally flexible and will gear things to dog and owner. I spoke to him for over an hour, an ex client of mine had been to him before me and I thought he had done a good job and I needed someone in that area to refer the occasional person to.

I would seriously suggest that you go and watch one of his classes and have a chat with him, I don't know if his partner does any training or not.

My position on referring people to trainers (I don't want to cal him a behaviourist) is that there are very few people I will refer people to unless I am completely satisfied that person will and is capable of giving lessons specific to that individual dog, which means there are very few people. I normally suggest someone tries to go and see people training and if they are interested ask around and see if anyone can help them, I rarely go beyond that.

Based on everything you have written and without having seen you and your dog, I think you need very little. I think you would benefit tremendously from some canine psychology education and shown a couple of techniques but as far as I know I was the only one ever doing in depth canine psychology, theory and practice as part of my lessons ( I gave all trade secrets away and I am much loved for it) and I no longer train people, but a one off is ok occasionally.

If you want to do that just email me, if you do not feel its for you then I will see you and your dog around the Epsom area if you want. I won't charge anything providing we can make a mutually convenient time and Epsom is no inconvenience to me.

DD I have mailed you

Regards
Sarah

Davedee would you be able to e-mail me or pm me the contact for the trainer please?Im having simular problems with my 8mth GSD boy.I would rather nip this problem in the bud than let it escalate into something worse

Cheers
Lett

Sarah
DD I have mailed you

Hi Sarah, I haven't got it yet so I have PM'd you.

Raveness75

>  Im having similar problems with my 8mth GSD boy. I would rather nip this problem in the bud than let it escalate into something worse <

Davedee
Oh if only everyone would take that approach and go the right trainer ( he does call himself a behaviourist) between 7 - 9 months for a male these boards would be empty of these repetitive horror stories.

That age is so right Raveness, obedience training at that age you can shape new behaviours instead of ending up correcting misbehaviours. They live such short lives and to take years off  their freedom in the tiny amount of time they have with us because you cannot let them off lead - well!

I start my own formal obedience around one or two weeks after they start the puberty challenging/ignoring behaviour (which not ALL dogs do), from an infant to that point is the teaching phase - I do intend to write some articles on obedience and post them but I'm a slow writer and haven't had enough time yet.

I am just about to PM both of you.
Hope everything goes well, feel free to email me if you have any probs.

Hi Sarah
I felt I had to reply as your girl sounds just like my 10 month old WSS! :D She is extremely exuberant and would really like to greet all people and dogs and used to always try to do what I call 'flailing' (rearing up on her back legs and waving paws in the air) when they passed by. We have slowly got to grips with it with the help of advice from Champdogs folk and a wonderful clicker trainer who lives locally - but I have had my phases of being really worried - probably only because I was expecting more from my girl than she could manage (because it's hard when 'everyone else's dogs' seem to walk around sedately and you have the only 'leaping maniac!') and facing her with situations she couldn't handle rather than building up gradually towards them... and losing my sense of humour! :O :D
Good luck with it all - you will get there and it ultimately can't be a bad thing to have a dog that loves everyone (or so I keep telling myself!) :)

Davidee,

Sorry about late response, problem with computer.
Thanks for that, we have be learning 'leave it' with food and toys (excellent at that) but so far I have not used it in this situation of mouthing as I need to be sure I get him to do so and at the moment he is so excitable I am not sure if it will work.

I will avoid the food and see if I can work on the 'leave it' for these situations.

It's easy to use a clicker to teach a dog to not mouth, and to teach Leave it or Off :)

You have to set up training sessions, and gradually work it up to the "actual" situation.
There's several Flatcoat breeders on this board; also, my friend has a Flatcoat, Jasper :) He has always enjoyed gently grabbing and holding.It's very much a breed trait,   so is innately rewarding to the individual dog.

Are you using toys and food to reward him as he leaves, or do you mean you are getting him to Leave his food and toys?

Lindsay
X

>Leaveing things alone (strangers, picking things up etc) is done by teaching the dog the command of "No" or "Leave", <

Davedee - how do you teach the dog what "No" or "leave" means?

seawoods  1
Thanks for that, we have be learning 'leave it' with food and toys (excellent at that) but so far I have not used it in this situation of mouthing

Lillith

>Davedee - how do you teach the dog what "No" or "leave" means? <

Davedee
I always imprint that kind of exercise unless I have special reasons for not doing so. I use the same methods described by seawoods EXCEPT:

1.
As the dog leaves towards whatever lure you are using I suddenly start to fondle the head area excessivly (compared to normal fondling) and give a one syllable word ("good" - anything will do) I usaually nuzzle them around the head area  and lead it all into a very short dog-human play sequence.
Time scale is anything from a few seconds to several seconds, I then allow them to have the original lure and then I go sit down and ignore them.

2.
The purpose of this is because a canines psycholgy is in its drives-lures are prey drive stimuli, prey drive behaviours are things such as searching, scenting, chasing and generaly getting any item the dog sees as pery, such as balls, treats etc.

The physical fondling is pack drive behaviour and interaction and the dog starts to do things for you instead of for treats etc, it is pack druve stimulation which forms the bond between dog and owner.. I then ignore it after the fondling dog has been given, the pirpose of ignoring is so the dog experiences me as a higher ranking pack member.

The teaching phase is not the obedience phase-teaching is only to get the dog to undrstand what to do-it is not a comand to the dog although many dogs don't need commands or formal obedience, many do.

seawoods 2
?I need to be sure I get him to do so and at the moment he is so excitable I am not sure if it will work. I will avoid the food and see if I can work on the 'leave it' for these situations.<

Davdee
What you have been taught is 'teaching' the dog to do things for bribes/lures etc and the above is something you have worked out for yourself -
- You are quite right seawoods, what you have worked out yourself shows that pet owners have much more initiative and nous than all to many so called trainers give them credit for. Your dog probably would not take any notice because the leave is not a command - it would have a much higher probablity of complying ifyou had been taught to stimulate the pack drive instead of just prey drive lures.

If you go to the link below there is a photo of one of my 1985 pups, the title is "Puppy Bitework Imprinting 1985".
The exercise is to give the dog confidence to confront a person as an adult dog in protection work, it will not let go of the tug, the person helping in this exercise lets go of the tug and the dog plays with it for a few seconds-I then use the leave in the way you use it BUT with the pack drive stimulation I described.

However al this is only teaching-they are not commands for many months to come.
Exercise photo at the following link: By the way, my dogs are not UK bloodlines.
"Puppy Bitework Imprinting 1985".

http://groups.msn.com/mydogz/thechildtrainer.msnw?albumlist=2

davedee

> prey drive behaviours are things such as searching, scenting, chasing and generaly getting any item the dog sees as pray, such as balls, treats etc.<

Davedee
I forgot to say - obedience is the dogs willingness comply with its recognised leaders instruction-obedience behaviours are a pack drive behaviour - prey drive does not hold the genetic codes for obedience, as above.

In addition *1 the drives are in the old brain, they are biological.

Refs
*1. Dr K Shaw.

I am trying to understand your approach.  So the dog's going for its toy and you fondle its head.  Combined with ignoring the dog when you do allow it to have the toy, this shows the dog that you are its pack leader and it must be obedient to you.  Have I understood correctly?

How do you then progress this to the pulling towards other people?

Lilleth

>How do you then progress this to the pulling towards other people?<

Davedee
If they don't obey me I bring on a lap dancing troop of Mexican Hairless dressed only in harnesses, to 'distract' him or her, when things hot up they all ignore me!

Yeah Davedee thats very useful input.Lilleth asked a serious question and you give a dumb answer.If you cant be helpful say nothing at all

Well, that was helpful. Thank you DD.

I didnt find it helpful,it made no sense what so ever.Im surprised at you Davedee,looking through previous threads you seem like the knowledgeable type but why the silly answer?

Mark

I think you my have missed the irony of my post, Marky! ;)

Unless you combine the 'leave it' with a look up before you either get to 'take it' or get an alternative reward, it won't transfer to 'leaving' people.

Brieley

>Unless you combine the 'leave it' with a look up before you either get to 'take it' or get an alternative reward, it won't transfer to 'leaving' people.<

Davedee
Not sure what you particulary mean at that age I don't need to show them anything within
no more 6-9 repetions,the reward - 'as you call it' - is the dogs relationship and interaction with the owner.

Pack drive is the second strongest of the drives and if developed that means what you call reward is a higher quality than prey drive stimuli to the dog.