Hi my bitch was mated 5 weeks  had first scan yesterday was told two black circles were suspicious, then told no puppies, had a second scan at a different vets today told to black circles could be phantom preg and requested my bitch be taken back in 10 days, she is looking depressed and is hiding food she is a bull mastiff  anyone elese had this a breeder told me they could be hidden but the vet said not really in a big breed

some one with more knowledge might be on soon. Also i am sure they can hide them in big breeds as they have a big chest and it has been known for pups to hide behind the rib cage not sure though if the pups would be starting to form bone around about know so if there are any pups they will definitely know next week, these supicious circles could be pups if the process of bone forming hasn't took place but in saying that wouldn't they have seen their heart beats, when the pups are being reabsorbed they go like little mummies good luck.

Regards Fran

Hi,
Well my only experience of this is when I took my Bullmastiff bitch for a five week scan they told me she was pregnant and had between 5 & 6 pups. Actually there were 10 so the other 4/5 must have been hiding somewhere. My vet has told me that especially on a small litter the puppies can be just inside the ribs therefore wont be seen on a scan. Has her body shape changed in anyway? is her backend swollen and is there any discharge??

Scans can be wrong BUT what would worry me is the black area and the suggestion that could mean it is phantom.

I don't know hopefully someone who has experience of this will be able to shed some light but if they can see something I am curious how it could be a phantom.

Hi Colkevar, i wouldn't posted on here unless you like addictions, i've became obessed.  Take care.

Regards Susan

Oooh Have only just seen this post.  Debbie, please tell me, The black circles did they fade to grey round the centre, like a doughnut, this is important.  On a scan, where there are or have been pups, and the process of mumification has started, this is how they look, the centre ring is where the calcification has started and the outer black ring is where a pyo can look very similar to a pup, only you dont see a heartbeat!!!!.  I suggest you find another vet asap just incase, please do not wait the ten days.,  What other type of behaviour is she showing???
Kay

I thought this today when i answered to this thread but edited it as i hadn't worded it very good and i didn't wont to look like a plonker, surely if she was pregnant she wouldn't be depressed. i only know that they go like mumies as the vet had showed my sister what they look like when they are being reabsorbed.   Wont the dog become really ill if the pups have died and develope toximia?

Hi Frank, it depends on how quickly it is identified.  With a closed pyo, there are no medical outward symptoms, only a difference in the bitch, unsettled, drinking excessively etc. but even then, by the time this has been noticed it can be just a matter of a couple of hours before the bitch becomes seriously in danger.  With an open pyo, usually this is noticed by the discharge of green muccus type pus, and it smells awful. But the pyo has to start somewhere and it is not until this discharge has been noticed that we are aware anything is wrong.  My bitch was eating, playing and behaving very normally and on day ??? whatever it was I took her for her scan, not for numbers, just to confirm pregnancy etc.  It was only at the scan that we found she had a pyo, the actual discharge did not start until 2 days later, but treatment was given immediately, before any outward signs became visible.  Thankfully, my vets knew what they were looking at and were able to diagnose and treat immediately.  Many vets have never seen a pyo on scan.  What the op is describing sounds too similar to what I went through with my bitch. Maybe not, but better safe than sorry.

The doughnuts that I have described were the mumification process of the pups, apparently there were 3, these pups, instead of resorption, had actually mumified  causing the pyo.  My bitch was treated with a drug not yet licensed in the UK, to disolve the mummies, which took nearly six weeks.  Scans every 3 days showed the reduction process just to make sure the drugs were working and the AB's cleared the pyo (which was an open pyo not closed).  If it had been a closed pyo and immediate spay would have been required.
Kay

God that sounds horrific Kayc, is that what it looks like then dougnuts on the scan? and is this how a pyo is caused by the pups mumifying? can a pyo happen to a bitch if they are not pregnant, say after a season or does she have to be bred from?  also does the belly swell if it is a closed one?

sorry for all the questions. thanks Frank oh just one more question are you in great britian? just with you saying that your dog had to have a injection which is not used in the uk. (i'm very noisy as you can tell)

Hi Frank, A pyo can happen to any unspayed bitch at any age, whether she has been bred from or not.  It usually tends to happen just after a season if not in whelp, or at a similar period of time if she is in whelp.  It is not a discerning disease. A closed pyo can be a silent killer. Sometimes symptoms go un-noticed until it is too late.  An open pyo is easier to detect.

The doughnuts are very obvious, IF you know what you are looking at, if not they simply look like black and grey blobs. How technical is that :)  My vet described all points in detail while we were doing all the scans.  I was totally intrigued.   The inner circle is a grey cloudy type matter, the outer circle is quite dark, nearly black, and very much doughnut shaped hence the description.  The inner ring is the remnants of pups, normally resorped, (not re-absorbed), but in my case the pups were not resorped as the bones had begun to form, (resorption usually happens before the 7th week) After this date the pups bones are formed and can only calcify, and the puppy matter, ie; the body will mumify. although this is very unusual as any pups unable to be carried by the bitch will normally be re-absorbed before this.  The toxins from the matter of the dead pups in my case MAY have caused the pyo, this will never be established for sure.  Its the chicken before the egg syndrome. Did the pups cause the pyo, or did the pyo cause the pups to die???

~And yes Frank, I am in the UK,  Scotland :)

Sorry edited to say, The drug that was used is now licensed in USA, it has only got limitation for clinical trials in the UK and has only been tested for the past 2 years.  I did have to sign a dislaimer for the use of these drugs.  I have great vets and will do any research for me and we have great faith in each other. She knows her job and my dogs , I know my dogs, and she talks to me.  This is very important.  If my vet had made a decision and put forward a good argument for it I would go with it, as it was, I asked if anything other than spaying was available, she did the research and phoned me within 20 min. AB's were administered immediately, and the unlicensed drug arrived the following morning by courier.  And it cost a b*****y fortune :D
Kay

Thanks Kay, I am a bit parinoid with my girl having an emergency spay last week with a closed PYO , No real symptoms as she has just came out of season.  I saw the black in the scan quite clearly and I think unless it is a trained eye one can be mistaken for the other possibly.

( didn't want to panick anyone by saying it earlier but glad you have)

I saw my vet again on Friday for a post op check and the surgeon was there. The surgeon told me when he saw her then opened her up he was worried he would lose her as she was so toxic.. :-((    she is safe now.  Taken a toll on her though. She has lost a lot of weight just in a week.

Hi Blue, Yes I know exactly what you mean.  Sometimes I tend to stay quiet and hope that everything is ok, but there are times when I feel that if nothing is said, even scaremongering has it advantages, then I feel really guilty if it turns out that something could have been done.  In this case it may be nothing, but I feel that it should be checked out more thoroughly to rule a pyo out.  The 'black ring' thing is just too obvious.  I would like the op to get a 3rd opinion. I just wish I had seen this thread sooner.

I am glad your girl is doing well, I am sure she will get her weight back up again and be back to normal soon
Kay

Hi Kayc thanks for the info, it's jsut as well you said something really because it could save that dogs life, as the old saying goes better to be safe then sorry.

hello
my bitch was scanned at 5 and 6 weeks first scanned showed 3 black circled  and was told no puppies , second time found a heart beat but not sure if its a puppy or bitches under rib cage , so im still not sure if she is having any puppies. has anyone any advice on this one

Hi Debbie how is your dog?

Regards Frank