i decided to get my fcr's dnd profiled, my bitches' results came back fine and i received certificates for them.  My dog also was done and had a certificate but 4 weeks later i got a letter asking for another sample as the first was inconclusive, i did the 2nd test and now a further 3 weeks on they tell me its again been unsuccesful.  the asked me to see my vet for a blood sample from my dog as some dogs can have little dna in their cheek cells. im a bit disappointed as i made sure the 2nd time i gave the stick a good rubbing on his cheek.  do you think itll be worthwhile getting the vet to take a blood sample? i thought it would be easy as its just taking cells from the cheek but its going to cost me now to get the vet to remove some blood, i dont have to pay another test fee as theres not been any results. any advise please?

Seems strange that you should be told it was inconclusive after the certificate was issued.  Could be that DNA from more than one source was picked up, possible contamination form meat or milk maybe?

There should be no problem with a blood sample so long as the vet is able to draw enough.  Though the cells in blood are mainly red blood cells which have no DNA, the sample will provide enough white cells which do.

Julie

I'm still waiting for the results of my flatcoats DNA test. I am wondering what has happened to it.

can some one tell me what exactly it is that you find out about your dog by having these tests done?  I know, it probably sounds a rather stupid question, but I am feeling rather stupid tonight.  I am genuinely interested though having got 2 flat coated retrievers :)

The normal cheek swab is as far as I know, only a DNA profile for identity purposes.   The colour test DNA is more comprehensive - does this have to be a blood test, Julie??

The most comprehensive test of the lot is still in development.   The blood tests for Flatcoats that Chris took at the Flatcoat Champ show are going into the DNA bank for further development when the geneticists find the loci that may define traits such as predisposition to cancer etc.   We dont' expect any results in the near future, but important to store blood for when the time comes that we understand a little more.

Hence, many thanks to all those who most kindly let their dog's blood be taken - it will benefit future generations.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi Jo,  so would it benefit research if I had my dogs tested?  Even though I have no intentions of ever using them at stud? or is this really only for people who breed?  Sarah :)

Hi Sarah

No,not only for breeders.   In fact, it's important for everybody who would like to make a contribution to research for the future health our flatcoats, and ultimately many other breeds .  People who contribute are asked to provide a 5 generation pedigree and any health clearances the dog may have.

  It will mean that we can avoid using dogs that are proven to have a predisposition to certain life-threatening conditions.

Playing Devil's Advocate - it will inevitably narrow the gene pool if breeding stock is restricted to clear lines on one feature, so the results of future research will have to be used in perspective, so that essential features of the breed are not lost. 

Forms to be sent off with the DNA samples are obtainable from the Flatcoat Society - you can get your own vet to take blood when your dog is next in the vets for any routine examination.    There is no charge as far as the storage of DNA is concerned, and I think that maybe the vet's charge for taking the blood may be financed  by the Society, but I stand to be corrected on this.    Many vets won't charge if they know what it's for.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi Jo

The DNA banking for various breeds that the AHT do is taken from blood.  This is to provide a storage of DNA for current or future research into diseases etc.  The KC's profiling is for identity but I think it is also being stored (at AHT?) for future research as well.  I believe there is something on the form you sign to agree to this.  Usually a buccal swab asked for this.

The commercial labs mostly in the USA are testing for genetic status in individual dogs, for traits including colour and various diseases which have already been sequenced.  They ask for either blood or buccal swab, presumably depending on which source of DNA their lab is set up to process.  They obviously ask for whatever is most convenient for their lab but in reality any source of DNA should be usable.  Forensic labs can now use human DNA from minute skin particles from fingerprints!....burglars beware :-)

Julie

The cheek swab is for identification and is to be part of the accredited breeder scheme. On the form it does say the results and dna is to be stored.
The flatcoat scheme is important and it is not for dogs and bitches which are to bred from only, infact the more samples from all flatcoats that are collected the better. I did ask Brenda Phillips at the breed AGM last year if it mattered if the dogs where fit or had known problems, I alos asked if age mattered, as I have an old girl here, she told me that it makes no difference, as all information is valuable.
Many people have had the blood taken for the DNA research at the breed show, but it can be done by your own vet and sent in. Hope this helps.
People and vets will say that our breed is more prone to cancer than many others, I do wonder if this myth has come about because because we are more open about it and are actively trying to do more research in our breeds health than some breeds do.

Most useful for gene research are family groups of 1st degree relatives (parents, siblings & offspring).  A shame the AHT don't accept cheek swabs as breeders would then be more inclined to have whole litters done.

Julie

If there are insufficient cells on the swab at the right stage of developement then you can't get a good result so blood is needed as the cell has to be ruptured chemically for the DNA to be harvested, I've collected samples from people as well as animal and birds and occassionally you'll get this problem.

The KC profiling is for identification only, I have done all my dogs but as yet only have the certificates for the males that I did just after Crufts, I would suspect a bit of a backlog as we all got the discounted vouchers to handin at Crufts.  I don't like the swabs that the KC use, much prefer the brushes you get from the American labs a lot easier to use and collect more cells per brush than the old cotton wool bud, I tend not to feed the dogs before I take a swab like them to have gone at least 2 hrs since their last feed to reduce the risk of contamination.

At some point the KC will make it complusary to have DNA profiles on file for all registered breeding animals the same as Europe to prove pedigree's should there be a dispute or problem later on, for now it's voluntary until 06 even for the accredited breeder Scheme I think.

Hi schip

>>At some point the KC will make it complusary to have DNA profiles on file for all registered breeding animals the same as Europe to prove pedigree's should there be a dispute or problem later on, for now it's voluntary until 06 even for the accredited breeder Scheme I think.>>

Will be a major step forward when it is compulsory.  Has the KC actually announced this?  It is required in Germany for the registration of GSDs through the SV but I didn't know of any other countries?

Julie

After chatting with fellow breeders in several parts of Europe they do have to have DNA profiling done but I believe it's more to do with specific breed clubs than their KC like the GSD's do.  I do remember the KC talking a few years back about making profiling compulsary and he keeps coming up every now and again but nothing concrete as yet, I am sure at some point if we don't sort our own house out so to speak the Government will for us.

Breeders I know in Germany have to be approved before they are allowed to breed 2 animals together so all health tests have to be done along with DNA profiling and temperament assessments, one breeder had to sell a pup she had off me within a year as although the pup was black her mother was gold and this breeder produced a coloured pup from an approved black to black mating ergo my pup was deemed unsuitable for breeding as it was known she would carry the colour gene and unknow if the sire did also, had she not produced a coloured she would have been ok.

Well it will certainly make life more difficult for puppy farmers who use KC registration as some kind of inference of quality.  Consequently, KC registrations in many of the popular (farmed) breeds could be drastically reduced.

Seems a very harsh decision about the puppy.  Black x black matings will produce only ~25% gold pups even if both parents are carriers.  I would think you have things other than colour to concern yourselves with in the breed.

Julie