HELLO CAN ANY ONE HELP I HAVE A 2YR OLD GSD AND TRAINING ONE TO ONE IS GOOD BUT WITH OTHER DOGS IN A CLASS HE GOES OFF INTO ANOTHER PLANET AND JUST WANTS TO PLAY WITH THEM ALL AS ANYONE GOT ANY IDEAS HOW TO OVERCOME THIS PLEASE

Your one-to-one trainer should have given you that info and it it should be inherant in your course, if not, you might be paying a Charlatan and there are plenty of those around.

Your dog should not be in a class at the moment, you have to go through other procedures before he is ready for that, based on what you have said.

Have you only just got him/started going to classes?

We have been going for a year and half now, but the problem doesn't seem to get any better

By 'one-to-one' training, perhaps the poster means just owner and dog alone, not with a personal trainer?

When we train on our own at own, he does everything I ask, and I have 2 private lessons a week which he is quite good, but get him training in a class thats when disaster strikes

I have 2 private lessons a week, now, but I am thinking about giving the class up as it is just wasted money, and a hour. what would be your role to overcome this matter.

Boston

>We have been going for a year and half now, but the problem doesn't seem to get any better<

The reason the problem does not get beter is because what ever it is you are being taught to do, training is not one of things they are teaching you.

It should take absolutly no more than 6 lessons and your dog should be recalling under all circumstances, including things such as leaving a deer or rabbit chase in mid chase and reacalling to heel.

My guess based on many dozens of cases and links on this one site alone is that whoever is training you is simply getting as much money as they can and they are doing that by securing employment for themselves on a long term basis, thats how they make thir money, alternatvly the buisness person training you does not know what they are doing.

If he is like that at classes whats he like offlead outside, can you recall him from other dogs, there are some things in your post I am not clear about.

All young/untrained dogs go into "fun mode" in the class, it is only natural to get excited about all the friends around. ;)  What your trainer should have done a long time ago, is to show you ways of getting the dog more fixated on you, not the other dogs. Your dog must think you are the loveliest thing on this planet and nothing else comes close. I haven't been to a class with my 18 month old for 3-4 months now (long story), and if I took her now, she would be a bit bewildered to start with, but at least I would have learned what sort of prompting she responds to (bribe or force).

I agree with Davedee that your "trainer" is not worth the money or time. You go to classes so you can be taught how to train your dog. If this doesn't happen, then you should find somewhere else to go to. At the moment, your dog is having a laugh, he thinks he only has to obey your commands whenever HE feels like it. You need to find someone to a) show you how to get him fixated onto you and explain when to force and and when to bribe b)help you to learn to "read" your dog, predict when he is likely to get distracted, learn to know how you get his attention back to to you. You need to start practicing in a constructive manner, start by expecting him to concentrate in your living room, then in the garden, then in the paddock, then with one other dog, etc etc. Don't ask him to run before he can walk, so to speak. For example, my neighbour has a 12 month old lab. If he doesn't come from first call, my neighbour then calls him again with a "Mummy's not happy" voice, and the dog creeps to her with his tail between his legs. If I did this with my Giant, she would run the other way laughing! My dog DOES NOT  do negative reinforcement of any kind- if she doesn't obey, it's because I am not lovely enough. If I get cross with her, she thinks it's funny. If I simply deny attention, she learns her lesson. This is something you need to understand about your dog and then build your training around the techniques he wil respond to. Beware the "one trick will fix all" -merchants. ;)

It is a huge leap to go from working your dog alone to working in a class full of other dogs, presumably at all different stages of training.

I am wondering why, if all is going well on a one to one basis, your private trainer has not suggested bringing one of his/her own well-trained dogs as a distraction for you to begin working against?  Or brought a friend with a well-trained dog, so he/she can still concentrate on helping you and your dog overcome this problem?

Boston, how long has your dog been in classes with others?

It can take a little time to get dogs relaxed and used to such a situation. It's fairly normal but improvement should be gradual; if there is no improvement, and you have been going for a long time, I agree you need to have a chat with the trainer.

Don't forget, dogs can get excited and play through stress too - esp. if classes are hard on dogs, and even if they are not so. If he is not used to being with strange dogs, this could be part of the problem.

Lindsay
X

Davedee- "It should take absolutely no more than 6 lessons and your dog should be recalling under all circumstances, including things such as leaving a deer or rabbit chase in mid chase and recalling to heel."

What a load of rubbish!!! That totally depends on the dogs breed (collies etc will always be harder), age, personality, previous training, handlers experience..... You can't go making sweeping statements like that! :-( Someone with a sheltie who has always had dogs and had this one from a pup will be quicker to train than a new handler with a border collie which is a rescue. That is like saying 'by *months a baby should be ***, *** and ***. 

ClareH Quoted
davedee -  takes no more than 6 lessons

ClareH commented

>What a load of rubbish!!! <

davedee
Maybe with your methods, so you need to learn more.

Dennis said:

<< maybe with your methods, so you need to learn more>>

That was a bit rude wasn't it?

Lindsay

My methods? Learn more? Training and competing in Obedience and agility with 3 collies, two of which are rescues - I don't think so. The fact that you resort to comments like that only proves my point. :-)

Lindsay

>that was a bit rude wasn't it?,

davedee
Which was a bit rude A or B, below, let me know your choice, thanks.

A.
ClareH
What a load of rubbish!!!

B.
Davedee
Maybe with your methods, so you need to learn more.

I find it intolerably annoying  that we are being subjected to such childish arguments and petty, personal snipes. Yes, Davedee, you are being quite rude to Lindsay, to be honest! I wonder if poor Boston has the guts anymore to come and tell us more about his dog and the training, so perhaps we could actually help him, and not turn this into yet another ego-contest. What is the point of provoking others on purpose?

There are very few dogs that could learn chase recall in all circumstances in 6 lessons! Particularly a young dog. If this is the case then my puppy (who started classes at 8 weeks) should have been 100% reliable and obedient, but she was not because she was a puppy! No dog is 100% reliable. I would dearly love to know what training methods you would use to teach a dog so quickly (as long as it doesn't involve shock collars or punishment)  and i would question why nobody appears to use this training method? I see a lot of dogs through my job and have yet to meet dogs so well trained after so few lessons.
OP, what are you using to motivate your dog in class? Is he food or toy motivated? If it is food you need to reward him with something really tasty (not ordinary dog biscuits or treats, something like livercake, chicken, hot dog sausage or cheese) every time he looks at you or pays you any attention. If it is toys you need to make yourself as fun as you possibly can.

>as long as it doesn't involve shock collars or punishment)

Ah, there you have it, I'm afraid. :( That's Davedee's speciality. :(

Soph

>Yes, Davedee, you are being quite rude to Lindsay,<

Davedee
There are no victims, only volunteers!

Thanks Soph, I'm used to it ;)

Lindsay
X

OK Davedee, so an obedience trainer starts her newbie class off by telling them all that in no more than 6 sessions they will have a perfect recall. At the end of those 6 sessions only half (being optimistic:-)) of those dogs do. What about the other half? They give up because they think their dogs or their handling skills, are rubbish. That is the danger of sweeping statements like yours!

I'll give you another example...a friend of mine and myself got puppies from equally matched obedience lines. We trained them using the same methods from the same club. He was my first pup to train, she was her 4th. I had been going to club for only a couple of years, she had been there forever. She was in Pre-Beginners, I was working Novice (rescue dog who started training at 4 won me out). By the time the dogs were 18 (mine) and 20(hers) months old, my dog was a whole year ahead of her in ability. Just think, if someone had made a comment like yours she could well have given up. That dog is now 3 and is a cracking obedience dog. She just took longer to get there. One thing I have learnt through dog training, whether it be obedience, agility, flyball or working in harness (and yes all of my dogs do all 4) you cannot compare one dog to another!!!

Apologies DD if you found my op rude, but when comments like yours are made I cannot contain myself. They are dangerous statements that could ruin someones dreams if believed by naive, inexperienced people.

This is not BTW, going to turn into a slanging match. I have made my point and will now let it be. :-) 

Another thing I think that needs qualifying is the term 'lesson' - for a lot of people that will mean a session at classes.  Most classes are not designed to teach the dog, but the owner.  I am not a 'dog trainer' - I train owners to train their own dogs.  I wouldn't be surprised if after 6 sessions, the average owner could train their dog to do almost anything - in that one place under those particular circumstances, but TRUE training, so the dog will perform the requested behaviour under ANY conditions will naturally take longer for some.  Dogs don't read 'the books' or messages on CD (which is probably quite a relief for some of them ;))

Digger

> Dogs don't read 'the books' or messages on CD (which is probably quite a relief for some of them<

Davedee,

Great minds Digger, great minds united in thought across the great cosmos, thank you for sharing.

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/15434.html

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=65026

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/65050.html

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=62265

Davedee, I have tried to figure out the meaning behind the four posts that you gave links to but I cannot.  Please could you explain what you are getting at?

The only connection between them (that I can see anyway) is that dogs reach a problematic stage at adolescence.

I know what the connection of the 4 posts are - they are all friendly, informative and good to read unlike some of the behaviour posts in the last few days which seem to be very egotistic to say the least. Have thought about replying in the last few days but thought better of it incase I get "quoted" !! for giving wrong advise - I'm sure there are many others who think the same. Please can we have the friendly site back.

Sorry to the OP - I have no advise as dont feel qualified enough and sorry to sidetrack your post. What I can give though is encouragement - stick at it, you will find the training technique to suit you eventually. Good luck - soory I can't be of anymore help.

ClaireH, I so agree with what you say re. damaging the dreams of inexperienced people.
Many people these days are first time dog owners and don't have experienced family back up like they used to years ago; also, they usually work full time to make ends meet. I feel it's important to help people enjoy their dogs and not to make them feel inadequate.

Dog training is, at the end of the day, a skill. I am proud of my dog training skills which have been honed over the years; of course i still have more to learn, which i enjoy doing. Its a hobby and also recreation as well as enhancing bonding with the dog.

Most people post problems on the internet not because they have been let down by an incompetent trainer (although of course, that can happen) but because their dog is going through adolescence, and it is worse than they thought; or, because they are worried and want to discuss their training problems. We all of us have  or have had, dog training problems. It's normal, not unusual. Every dog and owner partnership is unique. What is so enjoyable and fulfilling is working through the problems and coming out theother side ;)

Lindsay
X

I agree Lindsay

Many people with young GSDs are told they have an aggressive dog becuase their puppy/"teenage" dog barks at other dogs etc, GSDs are a very vocal breed  & can be very physical in play. To hear a whole litter at 6 to 8 weeks palying & play fighting can sound as if they are trying to kill each other when it is just normal play. My GSD bitch is a noisy girl & has even learnt how to bark with the largest kong in her mouth whilst playing with my late BC's & also the Cavaliers, she is not being aggressive & nasty just being a German bred GSD(who do tend to be more vocal than the UK bloodlines bred dogs).

I'm not going to get int how many lessons it takes to teach things as every dog is different, I had a GSD who after being shown & lead through an exercise never needed another lesson & a BC who took gaes until the penny dropped

If I have pupils(human ones that is) I set a little bit of homework for the next lesson, it is always something simple that they can achieve & is done to encourage them to train at home inbetween classes

Hi there, I am back !!! I have just caught up on all those messages, I am new to this and I couldn't believe what it can get like !!! Ha!! No it's not turned me away I am here !!!  Do you know of anywhere where does trainer and handler training !! as the class I go to is terrible we don't learn anything. and I need to be pointed into the right direction, but a trainer who doesn't use harsh corrections.

Please PM recommendations and do not post them on the forum.