i am intrested in having a dog hipscored, but refuse to put him under a full GA.  i am a vet nurse and am well aware of healthy animals that die under GA for no reason.  so would rather avoid this at all costs and use a light sedation that can be reversed, my own vets wont do this so can anyone recomend any good vets?
thanks,
kelly

Dogs die under anesthetic???
-do you mean older dogs or dogs where the condition itself has weakened the dog to a point anasthasia is dangerous anyway but the condition gives no option?
how common are deaths under anasthetic?
I know anesthhetic is dangerous but neccesary occasionaly as a vets nurse do you think we are mislead as to the risks?
Sorry can't help with the HD thing.

no i dont mean just older pets, obviously they are at an increased risk due to age especailly if they are ill also, i am talking about young fit healthy animals that come in for routine operations.  all GA;s carry a risk and despite taking all precautions, such as blood testing using the safest drugs around, animals still die under GA and we dont know why.  to me this is not an acceptable risk and wont take it just for a hip score xray, which if postioned correctly by an experienced vet can take minutes.
i have been monitoring GA;s on a daily basis for the last 5 years in several different practices and can recall on more than one occassion animals dying either during or on recovery of routine operations.  not so long along we had a yearling dane that was examined and blood tested, certified as fit for the GA needed to repair a fracture and he died under the GA, we dont know why, his heart and breathing stopped and we could not revive him. 
all GA;s carry a risk and i always explain this to clients and offer the pre anaesthetic blood test that can pick up on underlying conditions that may increase the risk such as kidey or liver problems, all practices should be explaining that there is a risk with all GA;s
kelly

Hi Kelly, this is interesting.  Someone asked me about a bitch recently that went into for a spay and once under the anaesthic she would not breath so they brought her round again and did not proceed with the operation - do you have any ideas what causes this?

a certain drug given to induce anaesthetia, if given incorectly can cause beathing to stop, but this is normally temporarily and most dogs will start to breathe again once the concentration os CO2 beome high. 
otherwise agian is just one of those things we cant explain or control, could have been a reaction to the drugs, gas etc, but i am sure that it wake her up without proceeding they must have been very worried,
kelly

Thanks for that information, it is something I had not come across before

Hi scratchy

Would be interesting to know the breeds/types of the dogs that you know of dying under GA.  Sensitivity in breeds like Geyhounds which have a high body muscle/low fat ratio is well documented but there is also the nordic/arctic breeds where there is something associated with the blood circulatory system's adaptation to the extreme cold predisposing to anaethetic sensitivity.  This may not be so well known with vets.  I have heard from Scandinavian contacts and don't have any stats or any more info.

Julie

different breeds, a dane and CKCS amongst them and others i cant recall as well as cross breeds and also cats and i know arctic breeds are more sensitive to certain drugs, hence my wish not to put my own under an unnessecary ga,
kelly

I had a healthy dog die solely due to reaction to anaesthesia. It's not something I'd choose to put a dog through unless it was absolutely necessary.

PS (Too late to add) She died three days later of heart failure brought on by total organ failure caused (proved by PM) by the anaesthetic.

I'm sorry I cant help with the HD but your info is important.
Has the RC done any statistical study on this say for instance on dogs under 5 considered fit etc?
I am always asked to sign a form but I have never directly been told of the risks except once with a blockage and that was because of the stage the blockage had reached.

have no idea what studies the RCVS have done, but am shocked to hear no one has mentioned about the risk involved, probably it is stated on the consent form you are asked to read and sign.  i always explain what they are signing as it states about excepting the risk of ga, as i know how unsettling it can be to leave your pet for surgery, people are not always concentrating especially of they are worried,
kelly

There is something else you may be shocked about-have you ever heard of 'Idiopathic head tremor' ? although it is idiopathic it is well known.

My dog started at about 6 months maybe a month either side - after sometimes daily trips to the vets - sometimes weekly trips to the vets and maybe the occasional fortnightly trips to the vets untill he was about 12 months and at very high cost they concluded they did not know what it was except the tremor was identical to a non-siezure epilepsy, they had never seen anything like it befor unless epilepsy was detected, but as the dog was showing no adverse effects at all just ignore it unles there were any changes. The begining was late 1995.

In 1996 I got on the net, shortly after I joined a dog epilepsy board, with 24 hours I had dozens of replies from people who knew it well and who considered it harmless but of unknown cause.

Several of the replies were from vets (they said) all cosnsitantly with the same replies and a couple from neuroligists, I think 3 in total, I had several coversations with one of them at a Uni and felt complety at ease for the first time in the dogs life.

Guess what - EVERY reply was from the USA, including the neurologist I called at a US uni.

Guess what again-yesterday I noticed another post on here 'head shaking' and for the third guess - vets are STILL making more money out of a condition which is well known and known to be benign, the other post is below this somewhere.

I have lost two dogs uneccesarily to vets here in the UK.

Hello,
I don't know of any statistics about death under GA, but it CAN happen to anyone, any animal or person, no matter how young or fit. In a young/fit animal the risk is fairly low, but not nonexistent. I believe there is always the concern of an allergic reaction, even if you have had GA before without a reaction, and I remember my vet explaining that the reverser drug that is sometimes given can put a strain on the heart. Having said that. I believe the risk to be somewhere in the region of 1/ 100 000 (i.e. fairly low), but that doesn't mean it can't happen. The reason why you are asked to sign a disclaimer, is to make sure you understand that there is that minimal chance of a serious complication/death. They should really be at least morally, if not legally, required to explain this in the disclaimer or verbally before signing. This is explained by the vet nurse here, and when Molly went to the hospital, the vet went through the disclaimer with me, and explained that there is a minimal chance of a serious complications and I need to understand that.
My 18 month old, fit as a fiddle bitch had tests done in March under GA. A month later she had a nasty cut on her leg which ideally needed stitches, but the vet wouldn't give her another GA, and wouldn't put her through the pain of stitching while conscious. (the cut is healing without, but slowly). I think they were right in not having two GA's given in a short space of time. But I wouldn't refuse a GA in the future, if that was needed for treatment.

I wouldn't worry about GA when a young and healthy dog is concerned. I would keep the risks in mind, however, and hope that she won't be that one in a hundred thousand. (or therabouts) I don't  believe any professional vet would be putting the dog under unnecessarily, and I wouldn't demand one for my dog if the vet thought it wasn't necessary.

I agree that there are risk with all GA's. My dog had 5 operations on his ears in 3 years and although the risk was high and I was on edge all day until I could phone the ward to see how he was, he never had any problems with the aneasthetic. I was more worried about the risks of the operation as there are so many nerves near the ear and the vet told me the risk of cutting them than the GA. His last operation was when he was 9 1/2 years old.

On the other side of the coin, when I had Willis (Great Dane) scored the vet tried to do it under sedation. It was very traumatic for Willis because he fought it badly and they kept administering more and more sedative until they had to put him under anyway. Of course, I didn't find this out till later, but he is now very wary of vets and I had to change vets for that reason.

Bye the way Scratchy - dont personalize itI was not haveing a a go at you - in fact I have not even mentioned the real serious situations I have found myself in (eventualy ) with vets but here in London - well they are buisness people first.

We use Cambridge Veterinary Hospital - they do it under sedation.   We've also been very happy with the way they deal with us and the dogs.

Margot

Davedee- I may be a bit thick I ( :D  ) but are you saying that your vet in London is not the bee's knees?  I am sorry to hear that you vets are business people first, as ours here are absolutely fabulous and clearly do it for the well being of the animals. If I thought for a second that they were not putting Molly's best interest first, I would vote with my feet. Have you thought about finding another surgery, if you think these current vets are not as professional as they could be? Mind you, I haven't been to a vet in London, but having lived there for 6 years, I can sympathize that it can be difficult to find a good level of service in any field, really. I guess it is a case of the service provider knowing that even if they offend a customer, there will always be more. Not so around here in the backwaters of the West!

ps. Is hip scoring painful? I would have thought it only required a sedation??

I believe the manipulation of the hips required can be painful - yes. Also the dog needs to be sedated enough to be manipulated... which, in some, must be near enough a GA anyway?!

> Also the dog needs to be sedated enough to be manipulated... which, in some, must be near enough a GA anyway?! 

But sedation can be reversed.

Soph

>I may be a bit thick I ( :-D  ) but are you saying that your vet in London is not the bee's knees?<

Davedee
I haven't had a vet in London for many years, I travel out to the country instead. My dog would be safer biking around the wall of death with a flat tyre than a London vet, in my experience, and a Harley would be much cheaper.

Kelly - your in Lancashire aren't you?

We use Moy Farm in, erm, it's near Poulton le Fylde, the vet's name is Mark Lingard. 

He only uses sedation and the dogs are in and out quite quickly

PM or e-mail me if you want further details

Kate

I heard that if there'#s a problem whilst a dog is under sedation that it is harder to pull them through than it is with an anaesthetic.  I've had 2 dogs now hip scored under GA as I found it more worrying about the sedation way of doing things.  Maybe I was told incorrectly I don't know?

I've had a bitch sedated for her hearing tested (out cold) who started breathing oddly, the sedation was reversed and she was on her feet (wobbly, but conscious) within a very few minutes.

Hi there we travelled from Scotland to have our girl done at Moy farm, she was in and out really quickly. We weren't keen on her being knocked out so the sedation suited us as she had to travel home the same day. Plates were very good and back really quickly.

I was told that it was harder to bring a dog roung from sedation as they are not able to do it as easily as they can with an anaesthetic.  This is what put me off from doing it under sedation.  I have another Spanish which I want hip scoring at some point this year so I find this thread really interesting.  It's such a worrying time.

If the dog is X rayed on a table they can be stiff afterwards & I know some vets use slings which lessens the manipulation required

I thought that Propofol was one of the better GA's as the dogs come round much quicker & a bit like the reversible sedation that is being used for the Cavalier MRI scans

Edited to add I have always taken my dogs & brought them all back home on the same day after having them hip X rayed & Jill Read never  keeps the dogs under longer than necessary & doesn't require the dog to be left all day.

Dogs can die under deep sedation too. At least when under GA they are on oxygen and being monitored. My dogs are always ready to go home within a couple of hours as bright as normal

If you remember just a couple of months ago, I had Tia hipscored, Her muscles still twitched under heavy sedation, she fought very hard against it and had to be put under full GA. It took four hours and 3 reversals to get her out of it. My vet was also getting quite worried and told me there was no way she could give another reversal.  The following day Tia showed no signs of any problems and has been fine since. But I really don't know what to do now as I have Summer to score in just a couple of months and then Ellie a month after that.  I have had numerous dogs done and have never encountered any problems until Tia. I will add though, that I do have complete faith in my vets. But the whole thing is very worrying.

Hi,

I have a Golden Retriever that has had 8 full GA .

5 GA DONE AT Cambridge Univisity Vetinary School  for Radiation blasting a grade 2/3 mast cell tumour.*4 of these one every week 4 weeks*

1 GA HIPSCORE

1 GA REMOVAL CYST

1 GA THROAT EXAM.

tHIS DOG SUFFERS FROM NO ILL EFFECTS FROM GA'S remains now fitter than ever,she will be 7 in Sept.
For me personally I would never consider sedation espcially for hipscoring would rather the anaimal be complete ly out of it and totally not aware.
Modern anaethestics are safer now than they have ever been however nothing is 100% even for humans.
Just my opinion
Briony

Hi,

Also all the Ga had she has come home same pm in case Cambridge after 4 GA THERE WAS ALLOWED HOME WITHIN 1HR,completely up on her feet fully alert absolutely no problems.

Briony