I have just spent the last few hours at an animal roadshow, they are filming for tyne tees television to be shown later inthe year.
I took my two dalmatians over and was sitting there minding my own business when this man came over as he had heard Charlie my dog to dog aggression dog having a go at another dog.
He introduced himself as Harry, police dog trainer, asked Charlies background etc. and sat and talked to us for 20 minutes or so.
I have talked to many people, read loads of boooks, seen a behaviourist and starting to get used to people offering advice and at the minute I am accepting it all in the hope that Charlie will calm down.
To cut a long story short he took charlie, removed his head collar, put on a choke chain and after a couple of minutes of Charlie arguing with him this man had total control of Charlie simply by saying no very firmly and giving him a short sharp tug of the chain.
I wasn't happy as soon as he mentioned a choke chain but I soon realised it wasn't like that atall, after that initial tug charlie got back into line.
Within 5 minutes he had Charlie walking within 2 feet of other dogs without even flickering.
I was in total shock, he is a different dog.
My bf and I  both walked him around where dogs were using the same method and were trully amazed.
I'm now sitting here thinking I have tried the nicely nice approach for 6 months without progress and this has literally turned Charlie around in 10 minutes, is this what charlie needs.
I am still unsure as to whether to take this further as I am not aware of the long term effect this may have on Charlie.
I don't want this to turn into a debate on Choke chains, I would just value peoples opinions on whether they have animals turn around by completely changing their methods.

As you've seen, a correctly used choke chain isn't inhumane. And yes, sometimes a completely different approach can work wonders. Every dog is different and responds to different things. Also the same method used on the same dog, but by different people, can also work differently. It's not a cut-and-dried science, which is why it's almost impossible to give good advice over the net without seeing the dog. Hope this keeps working - it's certainly renewed your optimism!
:)

oops JG we posted at the same time ;-)

Sorry but I would not let anyone put a choker on any of my dogs(certainly not a police dog handler) & I have handled some OTT dog to dog aggressive dogs in my time & as these were mainly Male GSDs much bigger & stronger than your dally & never had to resort to a choker. Those short sharp jerks can do a lot of unseen damage & using them to subdue a dog  to dog aggressive dog is a very temporary result.

I'm glad you are pleased with this miracle cure & if you use a choker on your dog I suggest you try using it on your self first to see how "painless" it is or isn't

I think, as with humans, every dog is different and needs a different approach.  It's good that you've found a method that suits your dog :)

I would be VERY cautious in the use of choke chains, but from what I have read and seen if used correctly they can be a godsend, use them incorrectly and they can be a torture device.

JMO - No doubt someone will be along shortly to tell me how wrong I am... :(

JG - It certainly has renewed my optimism. I'm still in shock to see what Charlie could be like around other dogs.

I'm just going by what you say at the end about whether people who have changed to a different method and achieved good results, well, here goes.... :D
We persisted with Jan Fennels methods for almost a year with Kayla while she was going through her adolescent stage but she didn't seem to improve, and for those of you who haven't read her book she doens't believe in clicker trainer as, in her words ''who has seen a wolf use a clicker to train a pup''. But I had read up on the net about it so went out and bought a clicker and a book, and well you can guess the results :) She responded really well to the clicker and we still use it now, along with target training, which we don't use for any particular purpose but she gets so excited when I get the target stick out of the drawer :D

So thats just my two cents, as they say, I don't believe in swaping and changing but if somehting obviously is not working then it may be that the dog will respond well to a different method. And just to add that I don't use the clicker with Idõ as I have found he has responded well to just having a treat after the correct behaviour but I may well use it in the future with him, if need be.

Good luck with Charlie, check chains can be a valuble tool in the right hands, as you have seen for yourself :) I look forward to hearing other peoples views on this subject

Emily :)

Where do I start :)

Dogs do sometimes need different methods and, depending on the situation, may need consequences but i personally dont use physical methods to achieve this for several reasons.

Just off the top of my head - any dog is going to be intimidated by a stranger jerking him harshly, and I would put that down to the miraclecure.
IF  a  punishment is delivered with good timing, total expertise and exactly right, it CAN work, but so few people can do this, and not risk making the problem worse, i simply wouldn't risk it.

I do think some training can be too "wishy washy" (and I train with reward based methods and clicker!) An owner needs to understand how to be kind AND how to be in control,  it's more difficult if the dog has problem behaviour. My dog had an aggressive phase and i didn't use a check chain nor jerk her. I did use my voice (approval or not) and clicker etc.;)

There is, anyway,  always the risk of "fallout" with physical punishment - for example, many dogs will learn to "climb the lead" if constantly jerked, and attack the owner. This has happened in the case of police dogs trained in the way you mention, and was i believe part of the reason police dog Acer was abused by his trainer and owner, and eventually died iin training a few years ago.

They may associate the other dog's presence with punishment and aggress even more. And so on. Just a few thoughts off the top of my head :)

Lindsay

x

If it works, lets not knock it.

I will be interested to see if it is still working in a different situation on another day, without the police officers help.

It sounds like the experience has given you new hope Spotty Dog, I hope it works out for you.

Sandra

Spottydog

>I'm now sitting here thinking I have tried the nicely nice approach for 6 months<

Davedee
No, you have been told by other people that you have been using 'nice' methods and made yourself feel good by telling yourself they are nice methods but your dog lost its freedom as a result, thats not nice and is VERY damaging.

The fact is you did not use any 'methods' at all if you had been useing a 'method' your dog would not have the problems it has now, 'methods' work, non-methods do not and it is both clear cut and more important-observable.

What you have picked up on with those few methods is that it was not the choke chain which inherently stopped the dog, it was the 'method'/technique used by the handler. I would not use a choke chain anyway.

This short ten minuets will have no permament effect on the dog,I think you realize that, you yourself need a full obedience training course with inbuilt canine education along with it.

If you read the previous posts about this dog Dennis he is a rescue & came with baggage & no doubt if he had had the same owner he now has all his life he would not have the problems he has

Training rescued dogs is different to training a dog from a puppy & if the full history is not known(I had same problem with our rescue GSD & it took hours/days/weeks/months of consistant training to curb her behaviour & stop the dog to dog aggression with dogs outside of my home & I am an experienced trainer) Not knowing what happened to a dog to change it's behaviour from normall for the breed to aggression is a hard nut to crack & a lot has been acheived by his current owner

Hi Davedee,

I'm a bit gobsmacked here :rolleyes: but, yeah, agree with you on this one - not *entirely* - but in the main ;)

As the OP does not appear to have seen any notable success with a particular training plan after such a lengthy period, then clearly something isn't right.  Either the method currently in use or, very possibly, the OP's technique/skills.

Dogs are different - simple as that - some will respond well to things and others not, whether it be training, diet, medication, etc etc.  I think in part the quandry the OP now faces is whether or not the "demo" with the dog today showed good effect due to the dog responding well to the method or due to responding well to the new handler.  Personally I suspect the dog responded to the handler who will have presumably mastered the timing etc of the technique.   I believe the OP needs to attend a course whereby his own skills are correctly evaluated and honed which may well need to be separate yet in addition to learning how best to press the right buttons with the dog .   Regards, Teri
PS
have just seen MM's post re the dog initially being a rescue - which does change things a bit :D

Not having read through all of this - I have to say that some dogs need firmer/different handling than others - same as horses. The "one size fits all" approach is the most damaging IMO. I also have to say that a determined male dally can be incredibly stubborn and the method chosen to train the dog should be suited to its personality - and the owners ability to follow it through.

Teri

>or due to responding well to the new handler. Personally I suspect the dog responded to the handler who will have presumably mastered the timing etc of the technique.<

Davedee
Yes I agree, the dog read the PDH's body (communication) language and adopted a lower ranking role, with the OP, as described by the OP, the dog perceives the OP as a lower ranking pack member, lower ranking pack members are ignored at the dogs discretion.

I think the OP needs a trainer who uses and is competent in all methods and give as much education as well as methods, not someone who confines all dogs and all owners into an inflexible set of rules regardless of the individual dog and owners fitness age health and spare time etc.

Teri

> have just seen MM's post re the dog initially being a rescue - which does change things a bit which does change things a bit<

Davedee
I haven' seen anything in OP posts so far suggest that anything is wrong with the dog except has been reinforcing habits inappropriate to its own well being and consequent freedom. Remember Spottydog, when your dog does something you do not want it to do it is 'rewarding' itself and reinforcing that behaviour.

Chloe

>The "one size fits all" approach is the most damaging IMO.<

Davdee
I have never seen as much SERIOUS damage done to dogs, their relationships with their owners and their owners health and interpersonal relationships with their families.

Thousands are living a life of anxiety, stressed relationships with their families, focus is always on the dog causing tension in and out of the home. Tension at even thinking about the next, short on-lead pull/walk. This has evolved over this past 15 years, anyone doubt it then look around these internet dog boards and MANY of these dogs are at risk of rescues or even PTS.

People get dogs to add something to their lives not to detract from the whole family life and the family environment, onvce the individual or family has had enough-off to rescue it goes, instead of maybe 10 or more years of misery.

Davedee
I haven' seen anything in OP posts so far suggest that anything is wrong with the dog except has been reinforcing habits inappropriate to its own well being and consequent freedom. Remember Spottydog, when your dog does something you do not want it to do it is 'rewarding' itself and reinforcing that behaviour
Denis
You appear to have to missed the history of this dog, he is a rescue & Spotty adopted him complete with his behavioural baggage(something I am used to dealing with albeit with unsocialized & untrained adult(usually male)GSDs)

Spotty dog is not an experienced dog trainer & is on the steep learning curve that comes with owning a rescue dog with mega problems(mega in the eyes of a pet dog owner) I know she has tried several things & is not fortunate enough to have a dog trainer(not behaviourizt)near to her experienced in retraining(on in some cases training for the 1st time)rescue dogs.

It is easy enough to give advice over the internet without being able to see what the actual problem is caused by & to blame the owner for the dogs problems. In this scenario it is NOT the owners fault as her dog had problems before she got him & like I said I have no doubt that if Spotty dog had owned him from the start as a puppy I doubt he would have these problems, which in my 40+ years of retraining rescue dogs are caused by previous owners inability to train & socialize them correctly

Hello Spottydog,
I am glad you have seen a light at the end of the tunnel and hope that you picked up some useful tips from this man. :)
I guess your experience proves, once again, that there is no such thing as a force that will fix all problems, no more than there is a bribe/treat that will entice every dog. It is a question of finding a balance between force/bribe, and that is individual to every dog- I am still finding this out with my 18 month old Giant, and sometimes the line is very fine indeed. I assume with "softly softly" approach you mean using mainly bribes and treats, and no force, and you have seen very little improvement? (haven't read about your problems earlier) You see, if I did that with my dog, i.e. bribes only, she would be flying me like a kite at the end of the lead!   However, if I only used force, be it physical punishment or a telling off, she would simply switch off and stick two fingers in the air at me. :D  (I also use a chain) Only with time I am learning to either bribe/force, and finding that balance is sometimes quite frustrating on a dog this bl**dy stubborn!
I agree with Chloe's comment about the owner's ability to follow it through, and this can be quite demanding at times. If you find that the dog responds to a bribe rather than punishment in a certain situation, do try to stick with it, even if you feel like screaming your lungs out! :D (been there ,done that...)

Good luck and best wishes

edit to comment on timing: rrewarding/commanding  the dog at the right moment appears to be very difficult to many owners, and I see a lot of bad behaviour that seems to be caused by nothing else than the owners' stupidity- why some people insist on shouting at the dog when it returns after 17 recalls, I don't quite understand...then the recalls get even worse and the punishment escalates...same thing with rewarding the dog 10 seconds after it did someting desirable, or forgetting the reward or rewarding for doing nothing. (How was that a good stay if the dog legged it? :D ) The trainer at the dog club explains the rules of timing to the same people every week, and yet there is little to no improvement. And you would think this is confined to us "ordinary" pet owners, but imagine my shock when my friend asked for my advice regarding recalling her Greyhound. The Greyhound Trust had adviced her to use a clicker as a punishment (!!): when the dog only returns after several recalls, if then, apparently my friend should tell her she's a bad girl and click the clicker in her ear as a punishment!! Is this not a perfect example of completely inappropriate use of a reprimand, plus the worst possible timing for a punishment? (and how you punish with a clicker is still a mystery to me.)

I have read all the replies on here and as someone pointed out Charlie did come with his baggage and I am also convinced if I had had him from day one he would not be like this. I'm not an experienced dog person, I have had dogs all my life but not one with problems like Charlie.
His behaviourist has give us 2 options 1. Learn to manage it (lead walking) or 2. PTS
When you see a dog transform infront of your eyes like this it does make you sit up and think, am I doing things wrong for him.
I did a lot of thinking lastnight and a lot of arguing about it with my bf and as usual I won, Charlie isn't going to be wearing a chain.
After 6 months of Hell, stress, tears, today is a new start.
I'm going to clicker train him, I have bought a book on the advice of a friend on here, Click to calm, for aggressive dogs.
I'm also going to enroll him in a clicker class, if they will have him, if not one to one, I can't afford to be making silly mistakes.
Thankyou everyone for your opinions, no doubt I will be asking clicker Q's shortly as it's been a while since I did it with Casey.

Scamp, that is terrible advice about the clicker! Dreadful! Idiots!!

I have been able to attend local rehab walks with a behaviourist/trainer, and many different breeds of dog. She specialises in Dobes because she has her own, but I have seen manybreeds, from chocolate labs to staffies to toy dogs on these walks.

I've also been able to attend a few private sessions, because canine behaviour holds great interest for me, and at a later stage I hope to be one of the people offering hands on help to owners with problem dogs. The trainer doesn't use force in the way that most owners would understand it - on rare occasions the spray collar is used, after a dog has been carefully assessed. Most often it isn't used. Clickers are used, and owners are shown how to handle their dogs and how to react if there is a problem.

I've seen dogs improve hugely, and have spoken to owners who have been very happy with this sort of training. They themselves feel more confident and their dogs have more freedom. It does need to be tailored to the individual dog, but that doesn't ever mean usingn anything such as a check chain.

I did use check chains in the past, and used to use them much too hard :( and I would never do this again. Heavy use can damage a dog's neck, even it's eyes  - is it fair to risk that?

I can often tell dogs who have been trained using check chains - even from the very way they walk!
I have a friend who has a dog who was trained harshly due to his fear aggression, and it made him much worse. She is still working with him and he is now improving.

I suggest part of the solution is to actually get hands on help here, problem is, there does seem to be a lack of experienced trainers in the North who can help with aggression. By that I mean people who can train successfully, without force ;)

At the end of the day, i feel very sorry for Spotty Dog because they have an unenviable decision to make, and lots of conflicting advice. It's not easy being the owner of a difficult dog.

Lindsay
X

Moonmaiden

>& to blame the owner for the dogs problems. In this scenario it is NOT the owners fault<

Davedee
Fair maiden of heavenly bodies, who dwells twixt earth and stars, giver of joy, caster of spells, sourceress of magics and observer of such oafs who have cast demon words at fair, bewilldered, spottydog.

Prey tell this slayer of oafs, who is this varmit, the oaf, the cad, the gobbleygook who has tarnished poor spotty dog with such allegations, for I, fair davdee, have seen nought such words from any cad who has offered words of observations on here in this place of canis toil.

Maiden of the skies tell me which vagabond twas who tarnish fair spottydog and I will smote them with a written spell and send them into the abyss of 'Foo' never to disgrace this immortal theme again.

Until I hear from thee sweet maiden of the moon.

:D :D
Sorry MM not laughing at you but have to say that was a very well written piece.

Spottydog

>I have had dogs all my life but not one with problems like Charlie.<

Davedee
Yes, the exact same happened to me and she was much worse than what you describe-another story, that was in fact, 31 years ago, not 29 as I thought a few days ago.

I will be coming back to you but only when I have time, I will say this as an interim, NOTHING, you have told us, especially your dogs reaction to that PDH suggests there is the SLIGHTEST indication that your dog needs to be PTS. All you need is a formal obedience course, nothing more.

In the meantime is this 'behaviourist' accredited to any organisation-if so which one? I would seriously appreciate a reply to that.

The behaviourist is a member of the APBC.

I could almost write my reply to Dennis's as not yet posted reply; we have been there so many times.

Seriously, if anyone is unhappy with anyone who is accredited to any organisation, get in touch with their complaints department and make a formal complaint.
Spotty Dog, if you aren't happy with the advice given, and genuinely feel it was no good, I would consider doing that. Standards have to be kept up :)
The good thing is that the b. is an accredited member of something - often they aren't a member of anywhere, and are therefore not really accountable to anyone.

Lindsay
x

Hi spotty dog thanks for that answer, I will be posting some info, which you hopefully will find useful, but I do not have much time for a short while.

However, I will say that anyone telling you that if you're dog does not respond to the way they are showing you whatever it is they are supposed to be showing you they should not be taking on paying clients or dealing with people with pet dogs.

Psychologically that statement by this person has put you and any other pet owner in state of worry, emotional turmoil, anxiety, maybe sleeplessness and if it goes on depression. Make no mistake this is quite deliberate, many of these people calling themselves behaviourists do it deliberately.

With this technique the innocent pet owner 'feels' and 'believes' that the life of his/her pet depends solely on the behaviourist and without constant visits at the behaviourists 'recommendation' the owner believes their much loved pet will have to die. This effectively secures an income for the behaviourist for as long as that person can suck money from the innocent pet owner, lets face it, the behaviourist has convinced the owner the dogs life depends on them

Based on the info you gave of your day when the PDH saw your dog, you would not need more than four-six lessons, probably less and you would be scratching your head saying "Why on earth did I see that as a problem in the first place".
.
Unlike another post yours has a very optimistic side. You have seen  the way the dog related to the PDH and without stress, without hard jerks or anything. The only downside of that is that this was an experienced PDH and many people think "Oh well years of experience, I can't do that". Wrong thinking, you can be taught and very easily indeed.

I have looked through these posts since you put it on and I think Scamps post are the most important to you. Scamp has been through your predicament recently and Scamp has lived the experience you saw for just a few minuits.

I will write a bit more when I have time spottydog but I have a lot of stuff to do, think about what I have written and read Scamps posts again, he/she knows what they are talking about and they are confirming that what you saw with the PDH was real.