In Wolverhampton where the littlle girl was attacked by the Bull mastiff/stafford crosses.
Police have taken last night a dog related to the dogs that sttacked from it's home.
No more news seems to be forth-coming other than they are assessing the dog?
Can anyone shed any light, WHAT IS A DANGEROUS DOG.

Hi traveller.
Some dogs are bred just for that reason to be dangerous and vicious .
crossing certain breeds produces those dangerous dogs .
They are then used for fighting , attack , gaurding drugs , scrapyards etc
when they are puppies they are thought to be vicious by different methods .
This is what in my opinion is a dangerous dog
But any breed of dog can be dangerous in the wrong hands as we all know .but any dog that bites is dangerous .
There are certain tests to determine if some breeds are pitbulls or other banned dogs .
Those tests are carried out by police and vets and the decision is usually final. Mari

because of wimps who wanna act hard decent people feel the pain of harsh legalisation,politicans should condemn the deednot the breed,

I don't buy a daily paper, so don't remember which one I saw it in, but after the attack there was somebody trying to get a movement going to have all staffordshire bull terriers put on the banned breeds list, as pit bulls are. I only look at them while in the shop, as I have to scan them as part of my job.

yes you are correct some narrow minded people want any dog with bull in its name banned,i ownamerican pit bulls and you couldent find a better breed plus dogs dont attack for no reason.

Got to disagree with you on that one - some dogs do attack without provocation: other dogs and sadly sometimes people - take the recent case of that young girl...
Some dosg are made dangerous by their upbringing, and others by their breeding - where no amount of socialisation, training or love will make the slightest bit of difference.
And i own SBTs, and am not ignorant of the bad press

i do aggre dogs react to their surroundings butsomething has to trigger an attack,

left this for you on another board--how old is your pitbull????i would of thought theyd of been wiped out by now :rolleyes:.he / she must be ancient now-presuming hes legal
as for dogs wont attack for no reason-i disagree, how many times do we hear, he's never done that before-its been written on this board many a time. and as we all know the genetic makeup of a pitbull is a fighting dog,

most stupid people think its only bull breeds that are dangerous,funny how if a jack russel attacks it dosent make the news,but hey anything with bull in its name and its top news,wonder how many educated reporters own a bull breed

Small dogs don't make the headlines because they do not generally inflict such severe injuries as the bull or fighting breeds.
Dawn.

sure there no were as strong as pit bulls,but you cant denie that the bull breeds are unfairly singled out

I do understand your point, and you have ataed it numerous times on different threads. Now, in many ways i agree with you - but i also understand people fear of the so called dangerous dogs. In the wond hands these breeds can become everybodies worst nightmare - and i know that this applies to a lot of other breeds also - but you have to respect the fact that the bull, dobe and rotties were originally bred for a purpose. And some really are naturally aggressive. I personally dont trust pits because i know they are bred for what some call "gameness" which boils down to adrenaline based forwardness, and if this is directed at man or beast the results are often fatal. I know that staffs are having that gameness bred out of them, and they are on the whole well adjusted temprament dogs, but then you get the crosses that are every bit as unpredidable as the old style breeding and they will fight to kill - and you cannot deny that a pit would fight to kill.
Now, as io own staffs i hate the negative press as much as any other breed lover, but there are realities that have to be faced. No-one knows how another dog is bought up, its socialisation and its training - and i think that it is right to be wary whatever breed of dog it happens to be. Personally i have experienced much more dog-dog and dog-human aggression in breeds like a lab than in the bull breeds, and it is aggression in other dogs that sparks off the fighting spirit in most of the bull breeds.
I am careful who my girl approaches but i do have a reasonably relaxed attitute, and find that it is the fear of aggression that often allows the dog to exhibit it ( for instance, i know people who have always walked their staff on a lead because of the fear that he may get in a fight, and so have made a rod for their own back as now he is not properly socialised and can basically never be off a lead as he sees all dogs as a potential threat.)
However, i also agree that had this attack been performed by a lab or retreiver cross - though it still would have been reported in the media - most people would say "oh, that unusual they are normally such family dogs", but with any bull breed etc the reaction is much more one of "well, it just goes to show they can never be trusted". Of course i dont agre with this attitude, but i do understand it and the only way that it is o be overcome is through education not aggression - the majority of people i meet now when out with cleo are not only absolutely fine, but most want to come over and talk, and say how lovely she is. Things are changing.

thank you for your reply cleopatra but you havewrote a novel in reply,lest you have a sexyname

Ah well, crypt dog, some of us like to explain what point of view we are coming from - rather than making bald, statements that have no resonable facts backing them up. Glad you enjoyed the read though.

i will explain in depth over the next few days as to why i say bold,defensive statments in protection of pit bulls,so lets debate

Welcome to the forum crypt dogg :-)

We enjoy a healthy debate here at Champdogs, but we would appreciate it if you didn't make nearly identical posts in every thread you respond to or start.

May I take this opportunity to draw your attention to the forum Terms of Service, especially the reference to duplicate posts :-)

For smileys, see the 'help' link at the top of the page.
For emergency exits, see here >,here ^ ,here < and over there ;-)

Cleo I take issue with a few of your statements.

#1. "And some really are naturally aggressive."
Aggressive to people or dogs?
American Pit Bull Terrier that is aggressive to people "naturally" without training is not a pure bred dog much less a quality one nor is it a "game" dog. The usual signs of most people take for aggression are cowardice.
The history of pit bulls is one that did not allow for human aggressiveness as many of the dogs were in a keep and often kept in small areas contained a lot of dogs. Also later because of the illegal nature and the cost of keeping a large amount of large size dogs the breed was kept small during the boom of APBTs in the "pit" with pit champions weighing in at a massive 30lbs and heavier rare "true pit" (used in the pit" dogs were maybe 50 lbs. People didn't want to match "uphill" or against a greater weight and coming in above weight could cause you to loose your wager by forfeit. So these dogs were small and needed to be able to be grabbed and ran with if the police showed up for a raid. The dogs are handled by the opposition’s second as they are washed to make sure no poison or acids has been placed on their coats. The dogs sometimes "fang" themselves in the pit and have to be “unfanged” by the handlers and not one wants to be bit while unfanging or breaking two dogs. If one dog "turned" he would have to scratch against the other dog, during this time he has held by the pit man. When a dog was in the fighting pit, the owner needed control. Dogs that were people aggressive were useless due to the nature of the sport where they constantly had to be handled and would be almost impossible to put though a keep nature exercise regimen to get them ready for a fight. These dogs were simply, like a lot of nongame dogs killed by breeders. Snarling, barking, growling etc are sign of fear and is undesired as is dogs that are aggressive to people and both consider to reflect poorly on the breeder. APBT’s are often kept with other breeds (look around the web at breeder’s websites) because people can easily steal them unless they have been trained by someone or dissocialized etc. The breed is naturally friendly to people as their heritage and version for Darwinism for purposes chose by man forced it. This is yet another reason the dogs have been bred out as mentioned above. These dogs are loyal to people to a fault and will do what they are trained and can be trained for "man work" but it is not their nature to be good guard or protection dogs besides their physical prowess. Until the 80's you never heard of APBTs being aggressive towards or biting people.

#2. "I personally dont trust pits because i know they are bred for what some call "gameness" which boils down to adrenaline based forwardness, and if this is directed at man or beast the results are often fatal."
"Adrenaline forwardness" is not part of gameness. Adrenaline is released in all animals during the same situations. Pit bulls are no different. I have never heard of any study indicating a pit bull released any more adrenaline than any other breed during a stressful situation; in fact they are usually calmer than other breeds which would leave to less adrenaline. I.e. at the vet an APBT is bored and every one I have taken in has been no trouble and never have I heard a vet complain. In fact there are several quotes/statistics as vets placing them first with Labradors second as the dog that are the easiest to work with. They tend to have a higher pain threshold and a looser coat/structure that allow them to receive less critical wounds as well, which also negates the adrenaline theory as if they was more pain or greater wound usually caused the body to release more adrenaline in response.
What gameness is:
Gameness in APBT's is a canine virtue that is most akin to the human virtue of unflagging courage. It is a determination to master any situation and never back down out of fear. It was developed in the American Pit Bull Terrier by generations of selective breeding. Gameness is not meanness. In fact the sign of aggression that dogs usually show, pit bulls do not because those signs are actually signs of fear. People often associate gameness with aggressiveness because they have heard a "dog man say that it was the dog’s willingness to fight. What this meant was not that it is willing to fight because as you also know dogs of all breeds do get into spats. Gameness is the willingness to fight... when you have lost or anyone would think you have. It is the drive to get up from a beating and keep on going. That is where the phrase "dead game" comes from: the dog was willing to keep on fighting till it dies. That may not sound like much until you consider that if the dog turned or showed cowardice in the pit he was pulled apart from the other dog and had to scratch. I.e. go back over to where the other dog was being held. It is what allows a pit bull to keep fighting non-stop for two or more hours, in spite of broken bones, torn muscles, blood loss, dehydration, and exhaustion.
Generally speaking, a game dog is an emotionally stable, easy-going dog, especially good with kids. Gameness should not be confused with aggressiveness. There are plenty of aggressive dogs that are not game, and there are game pit bulls that are not aggressive toward other types of dogs. Aggressiveness will propel a dog into a fight but will only sustain him for the first few minutes. Gameness, on the other hand, will not necessarily make a dog fight-happy; but if the dog has no other choice but to fight, a game dog will fight until it wins or dies trying, and will keep going as long as necessary. Gameness is an inner quality of pit bulls. There is no way you can tell by looking at a pit bull whether it is deeply game or not. The only test--and for many years the main criterion for selecting a dog for breeding purposes--is actually fighting the dog to see how it stands up to other dogs that have likewise already proven their gameness in the pit. Dogs that are emotionally unstable or those that fear-bite human beings are generally not game. If you want a nice pit, you're generally better off getting one that has been game-bred. These dogs represent the truest exemplars of all the best qualities in the breed.

How does gameness manifests itself in everyday used for a APBT:
Pit bulls will generally excel in activities that require sustained determination and that test their bodies' ability to endure pain and exhaustion to an extreme. But the fact is that there are very few activities that will test a dog's gameness to its limits, or that will provide a basis for comparing one dog's degree of gameness to another's. For example, wild boar hunting, in spite of the high level of risk to the dog involved, doesn't really test the limits of a dog's gameness. The tangle between boar and dog is fast, furious, and generally quite short (compared with a pit contest). Athletic ability, agility, explosive power, strength of bite, and smarts are of a higher priority here than gameness, which never really has a chance to come into play in so brief an encounter. The dog will either take the boar down or be killed before the depth of his gameness can make much of a difference. Several larger breeds of dogs--American Bulldogs and Argentine Dogos--seem to be at least equally adept at boar hunting as pit bulls. But this doesn't make them as game as pit bulls.
Understandably, breeders only want to choose the very best exemplars of the breed in their breeding programs. If you breed APBTs without regard for their degree of gameness, their gameness will gradually be lost with each succeeding generation. This is essentially what has occurred. Gameness is not based on when you are winning it is based on when you are down or don’t have the upper hand. It is not the desire to attack it is the desire to continue to fight. Therefore in quick contests like versus a boar instead of the sometimes 2-3 hours contest of pit vs. pit gameness never comes into play.

Why do breeders/owners desire gameness?
"It is valued by APBT owners who would never think of fighting their dogs. It is manifested in the can-do attitude of pit bulls toward any type of challenge, whether agility competitions, climbing up trees, or protecting their family against an armed attacker, etc. (Check out Richard Stratton's books for photos of pit bulls climbing up the trunk of a big tree in order to nestle in the branches 15 feet off the ground.)" A similar situation for mankind is warfare where the odds are even and its man on man and its fight or flight time. Running into battle while badly wounded yourself to save a comrade and risking your life to do so is gameness as is a badly wounded dog running in to save a child from a life threatening adversary. Gameness goes beyond this and you would keep at these functions unto you could physically do them no more while in pain and risking your life. It is courage and heart, hopefully two qualities we will continue to celebrate wherever we find it in dog or man. Many pit bull aficionados are not fans of the pit but given a choice they will always desire a game bred dog because these dogs true exemplify all that defines courage, tenacity, drive and the American Pit Bull Terrier

#3 “I know that staffs are having that gameness bred out of them, and they are on the whole well adjusted temperament dogs,”
** What most people fail to realize is the AST place behind the APBT in temperament tests:
The American Canine Temperament Testing Association, which sponsors tests for temperament titles for dogs, reported that 95% of all Pit Bull's that take the test pass, compared with a 77% passing rate for all breeds on average. The Pit Bull's passing rate was the fourth highest of all the breeds tested. Knowing the breed I would hazard a guess that being only fourth of all breeds is closely related to its current popularity and backyard bred dogs must have slipped in the tests.

Another less prominent temperament testing still places the APBT 82.7:
http://www.atts.org/stats1.html

This score is better than: American Staffordshire Terrier, Beagle, Border Collie, Bulldog, Bullmastiff, Chihuahua, Shar-Pei, Chow Chow, Cocker Spaniel, Collie, Dalmatian, Doberman Pinscher, English Setter, German Shepherd Dog, Golden Retriever, Great Dane, Miniature Poodle, Miniature Schnauzer, Rottweiler, Shih Tzu, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Yorkshire Terrier and many other less "popular” breeds and scored very closely to others I did not mention. Either test places the APBT in high regards in temperament.

Very old thread, no point in bringing it all up again now is there :)

Just for the record, when i say stafford, i do not mean the American, but the Staffordshire bull terrier... AST are known to be less trustworthy than a pit!

>>AST are known to be less trustworthy than a pit! <<

Where did you get that one from??

Taylor

um, temprament testing... lets not bother though heah

It sounds like another of our trolling friends Taylor, just ignore and will go away

Theresa :)

*ignore* *ignore* :D Try my best :D.

Taylor

Cleo has the right to make the statement without being called a troll. I deplore trolls or anyone that just wishes to make rude statements/insult people and not have discussion. They usually post a few lines attacking someone and not what they said. Trolls are not simply someone that has a different viewpoint from you however and cleo has the right to validate her opinion via facts. Temperament tests are statistical tests by recognized groups. If anyone has other data to post I would be interested in looking at the source indeed.

I Don't think anybody was refering to Cleo --I wasn't :)
Liz

Then by all means who are you referring to?

Nemesis3
this topic has been discussed at great length many ,many times -It is obviously something many people feel very ,very passionate about .
Each time this topic emerges tempers flare and the thread is usually locked .
I do not own a bull breed so I have no comment to make on the subject-I am sure there will be people willing to debate this in an orderly fashion .
If you are not trolling by racking up an old post which is obviously ' a hot potatoe' then I do apologise.
Liz :)
I have no further comment and I'm off now to sit on my hands which is what I should have done in the first place :D

-Liz

>Nemesis3
>this topic has been discussed at great length
>Which topic?

The original thread strayed to other topics and most of the posts have nothing to do with the specific matters I take issue with that was posted or have anything to do with any topic. *chuckle* There is hardly anything discussing what I posted besides the fact that this thread started it.

> It is obviously something many people feel very ,very passionate >about .

Passion is great but people need to remember on forum boards to make their points clear and concisely backed up with facts. It is very important to address the points made by others otherwise you are just rambling to yourself and no discussion is taking place. I take the time to read and reply to what people have written. This is the very definition of an anti-troll, along with not insluting people in the process of debate.

>Each time this topic emerges tempers flare and the thread is usually >locked .

I had hoped this was a quality forum and people seemed pretty level headed from the posts I had read and I take the time to read before I post a reply. Letting ones emotions rule you is a sad way to live and simply interferes with a quality discussion other people are trying to have. Hopefully forum moderators punish those that will not let a discussion continue normally and not those trying to have it.

>I do not own a bull breed so I have no comment to make on the >subject-I am sure there will be people willing to debate this in an >orderly fashion .

I hope so as well I have already received quite a bit of negativity but I am still of high hopes.

>If you are not trolling by racking up an old post which is obviously ' a >hot potatoe' then I do apologise.
>Liz

Apology accepted. I am not worried about generating thread length(what in the world does the length of a thread have to do with anything) and always if a thread I am part off gets too long and moderators ask for a new thread to be created for database consideration I of course do so. As noted before I am here to have a discussion you won’t find me calling people names or ignoring their posts addressed to me. If someone wishes to take issue with something I posted in this public forum I will take the time to reply to them in a cordial manner. I don't just make statements I back them up or retract them. People must remember that browsers new to all the breeds stumble across these forums and if they read statements here which are not true and take these way as facts then breeds can truly be damaged.

not bad for someone who only signed up yesterday! Obviously got a lot of spare time on their hands! :D

>not bad for someone who only signed up yesterday

Thanks!

>Obviously got a lot of spare time on their hands

Nope this is something I can speak quickly on because I have spoke on it often.

>Very old thread, no point in bringing it all up again now is there :)

This thread came up on several searches I was doing the other day so I took time to read it and I saw the information contained within was not accurate. People can and do read old articles on message forums due to searches and such.
I had thought the general policy was not to post a new thread in repose to someone as well as to not start a new thread on a topic that was touched upon in a past thread? I always like getting along with the forum rules but if you are sure this is the case? The issue is something you will find throughout forums all over and is a definite topic I would like to discuss with any that are interested. If you are not interested in defending your statements or viewpoint I accept the concession and will be happy to discuss or not discuss depending if anyone is interested. If it is felt by the general forums members/moderators this thread is too old and a new one should be started for a still prevalent but erroneous thought train that many people have and many others will run across and maybe adapt when searching the web then indeed I will post a new thread. I feel it it always important to represent each breed truthfully and factually and that doing so is an important topic on any dog fan’s forum.

>Just for the record, when i say stafford, i do not mean the American, but the Staffordshire bull terrier... AST are known to be less trustworthy than a pit!

As temperament tests show the STB also places behind the APBT and the AST.
http://www.atts.org/stats6.html depending on the amount of data collected sometimes quite significantly.

Nemesis,
Your post re A.P.B. is very thorough . Sad as it is you are speaking facts as I know them .
I was just wondering where you got all the information about fighting dogs .
Have you researched the subject or do you know people who fight dogs or breed them for that purpose . I am interested as you are well informed .
It is true what you say re a game dog having better temperament then an aggresive one only we call it a brave dog . One that would lie down and die for you. if you were attacked .
I have heard of the tests you wrote about but you are wrong in two of the named ones in your post bullmastiffs and rough colies . Rough collies were relegated to mantle peices as they were removed altogether for aggresiveness . Bullmastiffs were proven to be reliable companions with a duel purpose if necessary.
There was no actual top of the list only a rundown as to which dog had what type temperament in comparison to a pitbull .
The toys and smaller dogs were way down the list for temperament but were not deemed dangerous unless you came across a giant yorkie.lol:D
I had that info and test results on my computer before it crashed and I am still trying to get it again .
If you have it I would appreciate it very much if you would give it to me .
Best wishes Mari


Mari

>Your post re A.P.B. is very thorough . Sad as it is you are speaking facts as I know them.

Thank you. It is indeed sad that the vocal majority on the breed know so little about them.

>I was just wondering where you got all the information about fighting dogs .Have you researched the subject or do you know people who >fight dogs or breed them for that purpose . I am interested as you are well informed.

I have owned several of the breed and spent as much time as possible researching the breed’s history, and the men and dogs that came to make that history. I have came into contact with several people who do game breed their dogs and corresponded with several others.

>It is true what you say re a game dog having better temperament then an aggresive one only we call it a brave dog . One that would >lie down and die foryou. if you were attacked .

Courage and bravery are qualities to be admired and it worries me that anyone would want to misplace or mistake these qualities with aggression.

>I have heard of the tests you wrote about but you are wrong in two of the named ones in your post bullmastiffs and rough colies . >Rough collies were relegated to mantle peices as they were removed altogether for aggresiveness .

I am not sure what exactly you mean by wrong on? Their scores are still posted on temperament sites including the links I have posted. The statement I made was that their temperament success scores place them behind the APBT.

>Bullmastiffs were proven to be reliable companions with a duel purpose if necessary.

I think you may have misread what I wrote as I never stated that any of the breeds were “unreliable” just that they placed behind the APBT in temperament tests.

>There was no actual top of the list only a rundown as to which dog had what type temperament in comparison to a pitbull.

The comments and breeds that I listed that fell behind the APBT is not from the first test, it is from http://www.atts.org/ . Where scores for all of the breeds are listed.

>I had that info and test results on my computer before it crashed and I am still trying to get it again .

Once more I assume you mean the first test that states “The American Canine Temperament Testing Association, which sponsors tests for temperament titles for dogs, reported that 95% of all Pit Bull's that take the test pass, compared with a 77% passing rate for all breeds on average. The Pit Bull's passing rate was the fourth highest of all the breeds tested.”

>If you have it I would appreciate it very much if you would give it to me .

Copies of these tests results were available for some time all over the web in, .pdf and .doc format. Now there is a lot of pages quoting it which makes finding the actual downloads difficult it seems. Sure it is still out there or I may have a copy on a backup cd.

Thank you Nemesis .
I appreciate the reply and agree I misread re the bullmastiff, and yes it was the first trest I was looking for with no success.
I hope you find it , :d
Mari

I don't suppose the dog papers count, but the owner of a Minature or toy poodle has been ordered to keep it under control following it biting a passerby badly enough to tear a apir of jeans! In fact the aggression of the owner was worse than the dog it would seem in the ensuing confrontation!

i think folk owning a breed that has the capability to maime or kill a human should have some sort of control,only folk willing to train them, temperament test them etc should be allowed to own them, then they would only be living with responsible caring owners, -not some idiot who bought it to parade around with,

i look after my dog very well.dont act hard with it,and would NEVER put anyone at risk,hes my pet and i love that dog to bits

no-one suggested that you didnt,we-re talking about the breed in general, --please tell me how old the dog is, as i said im suprised theres still any about now :rolleyes:

2 years old

How come? I take it from that he's not a Pit Bull terrier then?

he is an apbt,my has it as part of a ushcabpca,university experiment into animal behaviour

I'm not aware of any experiments the USPCA is doing into behaviuor traits in American Pit Bulls.

I'll ask my father in the morning what is going on - he's a recently retired Chief Superintendent with the RSPCA and he has many contacts over in Ireland so he should be able to tell me what is going on.

Fiona
x x x

Thank you Fiona. As a very old man I was struggling to work out the initials! Maybe I'm a bit thick but for the life of me I don’t know what they mean.

John

Hi John - Ulster Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. As I said to crypt on another thread, I'd didn't know about this study, and am even more interested now that I see its USPCA/university.

Crypt, is that QUB, and if so what dept.?

not qub,ucla in us,

That is a load of B****. Troll??

Taylor

Surprised you could be bothered to read all of it, i certainly couldn't !!! :D

edit : i take it you are talking about the three long posts and not the whole thread?

Trip trap clippetty clop !!!;)

ANY dog can be visious but yes size is the issue - my old wiemarana was very visious and no less than a visious pitbull and none of his attacks were provocked and we had him from a young pup and he was never taught to fight and was never hurt either he was unwell and had a mental illness and that was the cause of his aggression. It really upsets me that Bull type dogs are thought of us visious and danerous dogs as its rubbish, I have the kindest most gentle bullmastiff and he woudln't hurt a fly.