Teri
but as with any working/guarding/fighting breed careful selection of animals carrying the most obvious traits of their original purpose should be selected for *inclusion* OR *exclusion*

davedee
In every country in Europe that is the case, the breed registration clubs, must comply to FCI standards and all working breeds must pass a working test at least and most in Europe have compulsory hereditary tests for hereditary disorders to which the breed, at one time, has shown to be susceptible.

The working tests are not just cosmetic, the confirmations must be to the breed standard the reason is that disproportionate confirmations cause health problems and the inherent temperament tests are to help maintain dogs with more predictable temperaments universal throughout the breed.

In one of your posts you implied that KC did not join FCI for KC reasons - KC could not join FCI, it does not have international breeding and showing standards. FCI simply will not accept such unhealthy haphazard breeding for that one reason alone and KC would not be accepted in its present state I am sure.

Another reason is that UK pedigrees are viewed with scepticism after the Old Bailey trial of the mid 80s when members of the KC hierarchy ended up at the Old Bailey after a fraud squad investigation and were convicted of forging pedigrees.

Needless to say the convictions were only with the particular dogs which crown prosecution could get enough evidence for convictions BUT all pedigrees of UK dogs from that point onwards are viewed with great scepticism in Europe, we only know of those which enough evidence for conviction, we know nothing of the suspected scale.

You were right in one of your posts, I do not go to shows , I haven't been to a UK show for years. The appalling health and temperament problems caused by the unrestricted KC breed registration club standards is appalling, it's bad enough seeing it in the parks let alone in such concentrations as UK shows.

Bulldogs should have been bred out years ago instead of a life of suffering which they endure now, Sharpies, King Charles, Spaniels, GSDs those and other sad dogs are little more than the living walking  wounded of Europes dogs.

I don't read dog papers either but I occasionally browse in passing in Smiths and even one of the UK dog papers about Jan had a couple of page spread about the excellent health of European dogs, I think the article concentrated on gundogs and I am sure some on here read it, in Europe such levels of lifelong health, secure pedigrees and  breeding standards are taken for granted

Because we have been insulated from Europe until pet passport ordinary UK pedigree pet dog buyers have been unaware of the high standards of European and international breeding standards and health of European dogs, that's slowly changing. Know this: If Crufts champion of champions is a dog of a protection breed then it is not recognised at international level and cannot be entered into international confirmation competition because KC standards of qualifying a dog is to low for international and world championship level competition.

For the record, I was brought up with farm bred working BCs - not so easy going on the obedience as the agility and show types. I have been training my own dogs to a working level since I got my first at around 10YO. By 13 YO I was earning enough money per annum to pay for all my pocket money for the summer hols at Butlins and some left over, that, in modern terms commercial dog training.

Hands up all those pet owners who have been told they are using "Modern methods" - forget it, its just commercial exploitation, the only thing new on dog training is the exploitation of pet owners, we were using balls treats and games in the 50's and that had been handed down since time immemorial. People stating they are using 'modern methods' have simply copied them from us.

At the link below click 'Pictures' then see 'child trainer' that dog was my first working dog owned outright and trained by me. Click on the other pohto access and you will see 'treat training', so called 'modern methods', modern methods are copied from us. The photo is dated by the period dress of the time - the wedge heel shoes and drainpipes of the Teddy Boy period-Modern methods? No old hat commercialised.

Modern training or old hat exploited.
http://groups.msn.com/mydogz/homepage

Canine Welfare issues of 'modern training' for exorbitant commercial motives, below.

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=66984

Just the fact that the use the non-existent term 'Crufts champion of champions' (!) demonstrates very clearly how little you know of what you're spouting about!
:D

Jeanigenie
Just the fact that the use the non-existent term 'Crufts champion of champions'

Davedee
Its often refered to as 'Supream Champion' but I have seen a lot of writings calling it champion of champions and also they sometimes say that on TV, so whichever is familiar.

I also said I have not been to shows for years, I am not a show person and at international level neither is KC.

There's no such term as 'Supreme Champion' either! :D :D That's only used by the tabloid press and others who don't know what they're talking about! ;)  (The correct term is Best in Show.)
:D

Well you need to inform the media as they put them both out.

Or perhaps people should learn the true facts before they start making sweeping statements - if they want their views to have any credibility. ;)

As far as I am aware the British Kennel Club predates teh FCI (an umbrella orgaisation that other smaller Kennel Clubs choose to federate under).  As far as I know our KC has never wanted or needed to have much in the way of dealings with the FCI.

British shows are the biggest in the World, and most of the International shows don't even draw the entry that is at one day of our General championship shows.

Even the World shows don't draw half the entry of our avergae all breed championship shows.

The size of breed entries that we enjoy to give us real competition just do not occur in any FCI country.

It is arguably the hardest country in the World to make up a champion.  One nice dog in our breed has his dutch and Belgian titles,a nd lots of RCCs here, but cannot gain his Internatiuonal Champion title  (he has CACIB's to spare, has won a Spitz group show and placed in the groups on numerous occasions) unless he gets his title in UK.  This shows that the FCI do respect our standards of excellence.

The entries on the continent are often very small, and without the grading system and other means of assessmenrt you mention quality could not be maintained.

Yes top specimins of overseas dogs ahve done very well at our shows (lets face it you wouldn't fly one from the USA unless it was really top class).  In my own breed UK exhibits have almost always won when at FCI shows.  In Norway of course they would have to pass their hunting tests in order to get their titles which unfortunately they cannot do here as we have no moose (wouldn't be legal anyway) but as our dogs regularly have the input of Norwegian hunting champions in their bloodline their hunting instincts and independance seem pretty inate.

Brainless
As far as I am aware the British Kennel Club predates teh FCI

Davedee
Yes it does, it's a Dinosaur close on extinction, since pet passport people are becoming more and more exposed to the healthy Euro dogs.

DAVEDEE.  You wildly generalise about the health of British dogs.

If you are anywhere near Ryton on Dunsmore (near Coventry) on Saturday why don't you come and see the Norwegian Elkhound Championsghip show. 

You will find some bad movers and some cosmetic faults, but you will find a breed in excellent heart health wise even with the small gene pool we are forever having to supplement with Imports, (and through this we have brought in the odd health problem which has been addressed) a tiny number of breeders to keep it true to it's ancient type which has not changed much in essentials since the breeds recognition.

There is not one person that I know who has joined the KC accredited breeders scheme, but all breeders have for years adhered to the breeds code of ethics 9instigated byt the KC).  All stock is Hip Scored and eye tested,  No bitch has a litter before two years of age, and none has more than four litters in her lifetime (usually only two or three).

You will find long standing exhibitors and breeders and very green newcomers and dogs all enjoying each others company.

There is likely to be another breed club show in the same hall, and usually an all breeds Open show in their other hall.

As for the glossy dog magazines, many of these know very little about the show world being aimed at the Pet owner, who were it not for the show and working pedigree dog breeder would not have their pedigree pet.

As for International breed standards.  the KC largely accepts the standard of country of origin, which is then translated and formatted in the format that the KC decided on some years ago to make all standards similar in style (makes life easier for judges to have standards in different breeds laid out in a similar manner) but their contenet is based in many cases on the FCI standard (except those accepted before this organisation had uniform standards for it's members).

Hi Davedee,  I think you have misinterpreted my statement below :-

>but as with any working/guarding/fighting breed careful selection of animals carrying the most obvious traits of their original purpose should be selected for *inclusion* OR *exclusion* depending on what is most appropriate for the breeds' role in society *today*<

Several breeds originally created for the above roles no longer live in an environment where their particular "skills" are acceptable and breeds designed thus IMO have two options:- (a) become extinct :( or (b) be selectively bred to eliminate traits posing a danger to human and other animal safety.  For eg. my own dogs over years have played happily with APT, SBT and Jap. Akitas - breeds often associated as *dangerous* to other dogs.  While I accept that *some* are, clearly this isn't the case with all - there are physically typical specimens around which do not have the basic instinctive temperament to attack and kill another dog.  Ergo, if only dogs with the most stable characters were allowed to be bred on from, every other aspect of breed type could be maintained but the "function" drive would be minimised. 

To Davedee,  (Continued separately due to pc problems :rolleyes:  )

The above requires no official test by any governing body, merely a willingness by responsible breeders which IME already exists in the UK and is actively encouraged by our KC.  You really ought to investigate our UK show scene more vigorously :)

Much of your remaining post seems based on opinion formed through flawed information so while I understand WHY you have come to some conclusions, I would urge that you reassess not only UK dogs but also those under the umbrella of the FCI ;)  Were you to view both with a more open mind and in depth understanding you may formulate a different opinion
Regards, Teri