i have 2 bitches due to have pupppies within 2 weeks of each other.It was,nt really plenned that way one of them has been mated 3 times with no pups other is first mating  the bitch that i have had no pupps from has silent seasons  and when the other bich was in season she came in early and being as she is now 4 i mated her 2 weeks after the other bitch, First bitch has been scanned and is pregnant if second one [who will be scanned in 12 days time is pregnant want i would like is some advice on when pups are born as regards (( do i keep them completely seperate if so for how long) or any imformatoin or help as i certainly don,t want any fighting or jealousy any tips would be gratefully received A lso how do i deal with the sitiation if second bitch does,nt have any pups?

good luck i did this once it was very very hard work ........ i kept mine apart with their puppies for the first 4 weeks ...as the mums would have hurt the other mum as both girls were very protective.............then i let them mix slowly when they went into their puppy pens ..i still didn't put them in together as 7 week old pups are much bigger and stringer than 5 week old ones, i let them all out together to play but they slept in sperate pens.it perhaps depends on the bitch a friend of mine had them all in the same room and the mums didn't mind at all .......i would just watch to see how they get on ............very good luck!

I did this at Christmas...........and about to do it again...............I must be completely crazy!!  No comments please Inca ;-)  I do keep them in complete separate rooms for the first 4 weeks, some mums can get very protective towards their babies, my stud dog owner told me how one bitch she knew of killed her litter when two bitches were kept in the same room with their pups..........this hopefully isn't very common, but I do keep mine away from each other until the pups are up on their feet!

My two litters at Christmas were 4 DAYS apart, now my two expected litters are the same!

It is hard work, but at Christmas we did put some of the pups onto the other bitch for feeding as one mum didn't have milk.........so it was a bonus, but still extremely hard work.

Good luck!

Wow! Four litters within 6 months! You must be a glutton for punishment! How many bitches have you got then, Sharon?
:)

Don't worry Jeangenie, this is it for us for another 2 years!

I have 4 bitches, but one is now spayed and the other that had a litter at Christmas won't be used again, too many problems so we don't want to risk her health any more,  they will both become my pampered lap dogs, so only two breeding bitches.  I didn't plan on two litters together, but both girls decided to come in season on exactly the same day! 

God i cant believe you are having so many litters so close together, i know you said one bitch at christmas isnt having anymore litters but is the other one, how come you are breeding that much surely it can't be for a show dog jesus christ you sound like a puppy mill, do you intend to keep one or are you selling them all, bloody hell ive heard people put others down on hear about breeding and so on and all the dogs that need new homes   i hope you have a good reason for breeding so much  i would'nt usually say anything but for god sake them poor dogs  i maybe assuming lot hear and i dont mean any ill will but i could'nt believe that you are not just solely out for money or you would'nt be breeding that much   it sounds like get as much in as you can before they retire, wont your dogs be happy when they,re lap dogs

I couldn't find the right words to be as diplomatic as you Frank. :)

val i could'nt believe what i was reading and i'm expecting a mouthful for being honest

You know absolutely nothing about me or my dogs, if you did you wouldn't say what you have!  What gives you the right to slander me??

No wonder guests never join when you get responses like this!

The two of my girls that had litters at Christmas, one of them is now spayed, the other won't be bred from again, due to complications with the pregnancy.  They are ages 6 (now spayed) and 4, I don't breed from them before 2 nor after 6 and they have no more than 3 litters each.

The two that are now in whelp are over 2, these are their first litters and if left another year, this is too old for their first litter of my breed.

I have all relevant health checks done, my dogs are KC registered, I used very good stud dogs at £300 a time.  I do not scrimp or scrape when it comes to vets, out of the two litters at christmas I ended up with just over £400 out of the 10 pups that went on to new homes.  If it was money only I would buy my own dog and use him woudn't I??

My dogs live and pups are born and raised in my home, handled by my children from an early age, so my pups are well socialised by the time they leave here.  I have waiting lists for pups, because of the temperament of my dogs!!

You have a god damn cheek to say I'm in it for the money, I love my dogs and they are excellent examples of the breed, I don't do it for the money, I don't need the money........not that I need explain myself to you.

So please..........before putting you mouth into gear, think............we're not all puppy mills just because our girls seasons coincide!!  I didn't plan having another two at the same time, but it just happened that way.

So please, if you have anything else to say.............DON'T keep it to yourself!

what do mean it weren't planned that way, if you used another stud you must have planned it anyone reading that would say the same thing, your right i dont know you, but reading your post it doesn't sound very good and so what if your dogs are kc reg that doesn't mean they are well looked after, i'm not implying that your dogs aren't but to use kc reg as a defence and yes i can speak my mind, as for new members j0ining i dont usually put people down but i just could'nt ignore your reply, i'm glad to hear your pups all have homes to go to

please, if you have anything else to say.............DON'T keep it to yourself!

dont worry i wont

I have all relevant health checks done, my dogs are KC registered, I used very good stud dogs at £300 a time.  I do not scrimp or scrape when it comes to vets, out of the two litters at christmas I ended up with just over £400 out of the 10 pups that went on to new homes.  If it was money only I would buy my own dog and use him woudn't I??

No not necessarily, what three hundred pound means you have a perfect stud dog for your bitch, it's not about money is it it's about breeding a dog whats has impeccable standards and less health issuses i dont know about you but it is in my view, i dont think it just happened that your to bitches are pregnant i think you planned it that way especially if you went out and got stud dogs at the same time or did you uses the same one for both

My girls were due in season at different times is what I meant.......so they weren't planned to be at the same time!

How can you come on here, and read 3 lines I typed above and suddenly know everything about me and my dogs........if you like I'll give you my vets phone number and you can check me out, I'm far from a puppy mill!!

All I said in my post was that I had 4 bitches, one spayed, one I won't use for breeding again and now have 2 in whelp..........and that classes as a puppy mill does it?

I suppose you are a professional dog breeder and know everything about breeding, all the hardwork and heartache that goes into it??  Go to my online photo album and tell me my dogs aren't cared for then come back and tell me!  There is a link under my profile!

I'm sorry you think this about me, but 4 sentences doesn't give you a full history of myself or dogs.......if you want to know more then please PM me, don't do it in public!

The lady who's stud dogs we have used is a very well known and respected breeder herself, I don't think she would allow her boys to have pups with my girls if she thought the same!

Here's the link...........go take a look  http://photobucket.com/albums/v194/crazycockers/

As you can see all my dogs are chained up, half starved, over bred and left to rot in their own urine NOT!!

Quote:  it's not about money is it it's about breeding a dog whats has impeccable standards and less health issuses i dont know about you but it is in my view,

But surely if I was a puppy mill, then it would be about money!!!!!!!  The stud dogs I use and my girls have had full health checks including Optigen A1 tests so we know any offspring will not be affected by the PRA condition, and this isn't making sure we have less health issues??

All I said in my post was that I had 4 bitches, one spayed, one I won't use for breeding again and now have 2 in whelp..........and that classes as a puppy mill does it?

As you can see all my dogs are chained up, half starved, over bred and left to rot in their own urine NOT!!

Your dogs are obviously well cared for Sharon, but being Devil's Advocate, some would think that breeding 4 litters in 6 months, from pets rather than proven quality show dogs, and to breed to sell rather than further the line, is actually for profit rather than "for the good of the breed", which is most reputable breeders' reason for breeding, let alone so many litters. :)

Of course nobody (or maybe only a few) people know you and your dogs, which is why judgments are made from what you post.

maybe i'm just getting on your back abit because you haven't explained in your first reply properly and i'm just being a bitch, i probably have used the wrong phrase ie puppy mill  i dont mean anything just be careful what you write to others, when reading it it doesnt sound very good i'm sorry for giving you a hard time, just in a bad mood

Ok, Frank..........friends??  ;-)  I didn't start this thread just posted a quick reply to a question, hence not all the details!

Let's call it quits!

Quote:  did you uses the same one for both

If you knew about breeding you would know we couldn't use the same dog twice on the same day!!  On the same visit!  My first girls second mating was on the same day as my second girls first mating.............unless we have superstud I don't think it would work somehow!

i know and i have just picked up on it, i dont mean to hurt your feelings i'm no expert on dog breeding sharon i'm just being a cow, i'm going off now good luck with your dogs and take care

susan

Ok, thanks

well i know sharonm quite well and she doesnt deserve to be treated like this she is an excellent breeder who devotes her whole life to her dogs out of the litters at xmas she hand reared one herself when the mummy couldnt feed them. i would happily buy a healthy happy kc dog from sharonm and i cant believe she was attacked in this way. people should get their stories straight before they jump in

I can't believe that Sharon is being treated this way by you Frank!! You know nothing about this woman. How you can abuse her in this manner beggars belief.

As Katy has rightly pointed out, Sharon is an excellent breeder. Her bitches are her babies. Sharon dedicated her life to those litters, hand rearing one litter herself. Her dogs are happy, healthy animals.

Get your facts straight before you start pointing the finger.

must say i have been reading these posts with great intrest, and feel so much for you.sharonm,as i do believe by what you wrote that you love all your dogs dearly,and the hurt of some one comeing in and saying this? ..well if it happened to me,id be devers! i think all it has been is a miss interperatted post read by (frank) who from there own words "no expert" on breeding dogs but an expert on dogs and what frank believes in,and maybe some agree and others dont but had the bottle to put there point foward, the result is you been hurt?! (really if me id be so frustrated by this as id know how well dogs are cared for but how could i put it to words) anyway think about this.. yous both have something in common,if only one thing "mans best friend,our hairy pals! aka dogs!!!

Please everyone,
In fairness to SharonM AND Frank they've resolved this problem between themselves - so can't it be dropped .......

It's obviously good for Sharon to get deserved support but in all honesty if she were not someone known to some board members there's quite a few who could have mistakenly interpreted her post.  We're all human and Frank was just a bit quicker to respond than perhaps some others may have been.

I agree with what Val said above and would respectfully remind everyone that when visitors post about contemplating having several litters over a short period they are often villified if their plans are not from successfully shown and/or worked stock. So while I'm glad Sharon's name has not been sullied, I think it's unfair to continue to take such a hard line on Frank - all the more so as she has apologised and Sharon has graciously accepted  and "good on both of them" for being big enough to do so :)
Regards, Teri      

That seems a bit harsh, Frank. I'm sure Sharon's bitches have very good show or working records as well as satisfactory results for the hereditary health tests.
:)

Oh God Sharon have just come back in and seen this, so will put my twopence worth in for what its worth.

Long before Sharon decided to mate her two bitches before Christmas Sharon had been e-mailing me 3 or 4 times a week on certain matters relating to these matings.  All I can say, is that Sharon has put as much thought and consideration regarding all aspects of these pregnancies.  Just as much or maybe even more than many of us with 'proven show dogs'.  On this I can only commend Sharon for the care and attention that she has paid to making sure that she has done everything correctly.  I also have 4 bitches that come in to season within 3 days of each other.  Its just the timing that is wrong, not the decision to breed.

Kay

Thanks Kayc, :-)

I can't beleive what i have just read!!!!!!!  Sharon is one of the few breeders I know who goes all out on health testing and correct breeding ........ no one has the right to judge anyone by the fact the litters have been close ..sometimes it just happens that way
I am shocked that such awful comments have been made to a member of this board who is a good member and is always helpful to others and gives good advice.......perhaps a little background knowledge should have been sought before such nasty commnets are made in future

I am a new member of the board. Sharon was the first person to answer my posts last weekend. She PM'd me with some very helpful tips and advice (and for that I am very grateful Sharon). Anyone can see from Sharons photos that her dogs are extremely loved and well cared for. Try not to take the comments to heart Sharon & please don't hold back on your advice and expertise because of it.
Helen

The two that are now in whelp are over 2, these are their first litters and if left another year, this is too old for their first litter of my breed

I own the same breed as Sharon & personally haven't found this statement to be true. We have often waited until a bitch is 3 years old & sometimes 4 years old for a first litter & have never experienced any problems at all. In nearly 20 years of breeding, we have been lucky enough never to have a bitch needing a caesarian (touch wood!) & those bitches who have been 3 or 4 for their first litters have not found things any more difficult than a younger bitch. I think this is true of quite a few show breeders - if you've got a bitch doing well in the show ring (or in the field if a working dog), then you're not going to be in a hurry to mate her & as long as she is kept lean & well excercised, mating later should not cause problems. I have no doubt that Sharon loves her dogs very much & I'm certainly not going to get involved in a witch hunt but I don't think I'm speaking out of turn in saying that she has not been breeding for all that long. I know when we first started breeding, we were inundated with information from various sources including other breeders & veterinary surgeons which we would now disagree with, based upon the knowledge & experience we have gained over the years - such is life ;-)

Jane

i think it's up to the individual breeder :)

MMmm, maybe the difference between a breeder and a puppy producer eh Inca??? :)

So breeders don't produce puppies then?

Generally for showing or work (either themselves or others), or to keep on to carry on their line.
:)

Which I have done

Sorry, I misunderstood. :o I didn't realise you (or your puppy buyers) showed or worked the pups. My apologies. It goes to show how easy it is for everyone's posts to give a false impression.
:)

Thanks JaneS, the stud dog owner who we both know very well ;-), has given me all the backing and advise and said that this is the best age for first litters!  I have only been breeding for 5 years and have been given advise some I agree on some I don't.

The section my girl had was because she was so big in whelp, she had 8  10 - 12oz puppies and got very tired after 2 hours of pushing and not producing a pup.  This was her second litter, her first she whelped no problems.  Even the best of breeders encounter problems with their girls needing sections no matter what age, you are very lucky that none of your girls have ever needed one......and it is only luck!

I just wish this thread would be locked, I didn't start it, it was a simple reply to a question asked.

Did anybody actually answer the OP's question??

I don't think Sharon is a puppy farmer ....I think this thread has got confusing ....

I know I'm not a puppy farmer Inca!  Puppy farmers don't put in anywhere near the time, effort, money or heartache that I do with my litters.

I am not going to answer any more posts on this subject!

Thank you to everybody that was good enough to put a good word in for me, nice to know who your friends are!

Sharon, I accept that 2 is considered the best age for mating a bitch but that's not the same as saying if you waited a year, it would be too late :-) I certainly don't want to get into an argument with you about this but in a way you invited this discussion by publicly stating you are expecting 2 litters so soon after your previous 2 litters & one of the bitches you are currently expecting a litter from is not in fact 2 years old - she won't be 2 until August this year (info taken from the KC BRS) so there's no reason why you couldn't have waited until her next season & avoided all the hard work of having 2 litters at the same time ;-) I'm certainly not accusing you of being a puppy farmer & I'm not doubting your dedication to your litters when you have them but I personally wouldn't want to do what your doing - just my opinion which you are of course free to disagree with :-)

Jane

Sharon i just  have to say i had a look on your site and your baby is just darling :)

I will be 9n a similar boat myself with mother and daughter. 

Mum has had one litter obviously but is a bitch that is difficult to mate, but too good not to keep trying with.  so when she comes in next anytime from the end of theis month will be trying again (though may not get anywhere again). 

Her daughter is coming upm for two, and given the problems I have had with Mum accepting a mate plan to mate her as soon as she is old enough, probably the end of the year, though if Mum is still being difficult will keep trying her regardless of what happens with daughter, so could end up with two litters close together.

Must say though in Sharons case I would have waited for the younger bitches next season before mating her :D

I did ask my vet about breeding from her at this age, she agreed that she was a very mature girl in both size and temperament and she couldn't see it being a problem.........so I didn't do it without consideration for my girl, I wouldn't risk my dogs health, I love them dearly!

Thank you frodo, that's Lily she is beautiful isn't she!

I would take what most vets know about breeding dogs with a pinch of salt, not many own dogs let alone are breeders themselves.

Sharon,

I'd be interested to know what you are breeding for when you breed?  Do you show your dogs?   Or work them? 

The two that are now in whelp are over 2, these are their first litters and if left another year, this is too old for their first litter of my breed

Was your youngest mated on her second or third season? As she was only 19 months old when the mating took place I doubt it would be too late for her to have her first litter if you had left it until her next season. Just curious as I don't breed or own cockers.

No bitch should be mated at more than two out of three successive seasons and never without consideration to the well-being of the bitch. No bitch should be mated before her second season (unless her first season occurs after 12 months of age) nor after 7 years"  to see the whole code of ethics visit http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/code_of_ethics.htm

Most vets know very little about normal breeding practices, I'm afraid. :( There's another thread about a vet telling the owner of a 7-month dalmatian bitch with a major breed fault that she's fine to breed from ...

Hi sharon, i'm so sorry to cause you so much trouble, this incident has been resolved so i dont know why people keep commenting the war is over leave sharon alone now

frank

Thanks Frank......... I think it's pick on Sharon weekend!

i know, like me people are to quick to judge, it's sad really, i am truly sorry i wish i could take this one off the board, i have felt guilty alnight, it's just a shame other people feel the need to jump on the ban wagon, anyway dont explain yourself it's not you up for debate, someone needs advice, so anyone who feels like commenting dont bother.

whelshie:I really think it depends on the temperament and chemistry between the bitches.Heard a lot of different stories breeders have on this subject.
And for Sharon: thank you for beeing so welcoming to me here on this board!!! :) I agree that some people can be quick to judge without knowing the full story behind.And there is one thing I really want to know,when people here say "one  breeds for money" it really surprise me,every serious breeder knows how expensive it really is.I dont get this at all!!