I am so confused about this AD..

Why would The Guide Dogs for the Blind Association be advertising their dogs at stud ??

Am I missing something?  I find that very strange.

Why would they not use their dogs at stud?

Hi tohme , Always love your overly freindly response  ;-))

I may be wrong but I cannot see show breeders or working breeders going out their way to use them over excellent stock in their own field so I can only see it attracting the pet breeding market? As you will know we already have more than enough labradors bred for the pet market as it is in the UK.  I cannot see the motive behind using them except to generate income. 

I was certainly suprised to see the ad.

Well it may interest you to know that one of the best working dogs in this country was a GDBA stud dog................................

But it is good that you posed the question so that you got an opportunity hear the answer. ;)

When you say that "one of the best working dogs in this country was a GDBA stud"  is this quite the samething we are talking about here.. there is surely a difference between dogs advertised at stud by the GDBA and dogs made avaliable to the GDBA is there not? or is the top winning dog owned by the GDBA ??  Do the GDBA actually work their dogs or do I have this wrong?

To be honest the statue of the stud dog isn't what I question at all and I have no doubt they have and have connections to some wonderful dogs so really to tell me this information doesn't affect or have any baring on why I questioned it in the first place or make me think it is more OK to do it .. 

I could have bought in the top stud dog in my breed in the country but my motives could be completely different for using it at stud to the original owner..

Just interested in the motive behind it to be honest when we have a big problem with pet market labradors and the quanities that are being produced.. :-)  

The gene pool theory that someone raised to me doesn't come into it either as they are advertising their dogs at stud NOT asking for quality studs to widen their gene pool, unless of course they were getting puppies back BUT even at that the could do that by using different lines and forget the stud adverts.. ;-)

The dog in question was a Guidewell....................

And one of the people who works for them competed with him.

I am still confused as to why there should be any objection to any organisation using one of their tested, proven and successful dog at stud to suitable bitches?

Or have I misunderstood your post completely?

Tohme are you talking about a GSD a few years ago?

I think they owned a curly coated retriever of much repute at one point.

Yes, Geoff......... ;)

Thought so, bless 'im.

A really lovely lad..................

Tohme, you are talking about a totally different breed :-(  think you have iterpretated my post how you wanted to and not how I intended :-)

Tohme, :-))

I am not sure how I can spell it out anymore for you and can't see for the life of me why you are confused !! ;-)  Can someone help her out ;-)) If you need help have a look at the BRS for labradors , walk round the dozens of rescues for labradors many full of dogs coming from working lines surplus to requirements.

I cannot see how you point has anything to do with mine I am afraid ;-) and just because they have one who is a successful dog doesn't mean much to me.. They are not advertising 1 dog and I still personally think It doesn't matter if the dog is the best in the world if the motive is wrong...  Just because a dog is of reasonable quality doesn't mean it should be bred from especially in Labradors..

I always have a moto or a question.. and I say it to anyone looking for puppies or about to breed puppies OR use their dog at Stud.. I stand by that question with my own dogs and own decisions.

"what is the purpose of the impending mating" 

If someone can give a genuine reason which DOESNT in anyway have a detriment to the breed, in other words would it enhance it or give it something that it is lacking either in the breed or that particular area of the country then I think OK if it doesn't  then NO I don't think it is OK..

We have too many labradors registered pure and simple.  It is not only crosses that are in labrador rescue or older dogs, labrador rescue is full of half decent breed dogs and puppies.  

MY 2 points are THE MOTIVE behind it and the already  bursting at the seems QUANTITY of Labradors .

Can't get more simpler than that I think :-))

The motive would be one assumes the same as a lot of breeder's motives to improve the quality.

The amount of labradors bred surely only reflect customer demand. If the demand was not there there would be no point in breeding.

Conversely, several breeds are on the verge of extinction because no one is interested in them.

I think you will find that the dog world mirrors that of the "real" one in general that of supply and demand.

I would be only to happy to use a stud dog supplied by ANYONE, GDBA or otherwise  if it fitted my criteria, matched my bitches lines, was fully health checked, met the breed standard and could improve the breed etc

Tohme, :-))

The real world is not that simple, " supply and demand " works for somethings BUT how often do we see people here asking for one breed and ending up with another because they could find the one they bought easily.. that is the problem with people and their lack of the ability to wait on something..

Like we always say to those who come to this board wanting 'to stud their dog', if he is a very good example of the breed etc.  people will come to you!

I -personally - have not seen one pure bred Labrador guide dog I would want to use for stud if that was my breed usually the puppies in training/adults are beautifully natured but not great in conformation.

This was discussed a couple of months ago in this thread :- http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=453122;hlm=and;hl=guide%20dog%20stud#453122
which covers all the issues I think :)
Sorry champdog links usually work they must be going down market ;).  Need to cut and paste

Thanks Isabel :-)

i presumme stud fees would go back to the charity,so that would be ok. what about the Xs?

But ONE successfully worked stud dog out of how many they breed each year?  Hardly a good ratio is it?

I think we have got a bit sidetracked into the good working quality of their their studs.  The GDB breed 2000 pups a year with a extremely high success rate in training them into being guide dogs that has got to say something about the quality of the temperament, the pure bred dogs that I have seen are certainly handsome creatures and I have no doubt they will have incorporated relevent health test into such a large breeding programme they could not afford not to.  I'm sure the fees come in very handy for the charity but I would imagine it would also open up opportunities to expand the blood lines too, where appropriate.

I cant imagine that the advert will ADD to the number of litters being bred. However, it might just improve the quality of a few of them......

Hi Havoc,

If someone usings numerous dogs at stud how would that not add to the numbers.

Say someone is just thinking about breeding their bitch and they contact a reputable breeder who advices them against it because of the numbers already out their of "OK quality" pet labradors. The enquirer then thinks about it and decides not to bother because they understand now how many there are out there now.

If the same person enquires about breeding to someone who has another "motive" then they may just go ahead with that mating because it has been put to them differently.

If top breeders on occasion have to advertise the odd puppy how easy is it for breeders of pet quality labrador puppies to sell them.. :-)

Thing is are people with 'stud dogs'  that choosy when it comes to visiting bitches?   I don't think so????  I think most see £'s or for more offspring from their stud dog in the ring/field.

Hi Christine, :-)

I probably wouldn't have any issue at all with it if it was a breed that was lacking quality, that was low in registrations if it was all done for the right reasons.. BUT as I say so often on here labradors get a raw deal at times and what a lovely breed to waste.

Blue,

I completely understand where you're coming from, but would suggest that the number of litters is driven by the number of bitch owners that want to breed rather than the number of available stud dogs. You can always find a stud dog somewhere.

Hopefully GDB will take a responsible attitude, only mate to decent bitches and will dissuade the idiots. However, in my experience few FTCh owners of labs take any interest in the bitch other than the fact that the owner brought sufficient money with them. ;-) The general approach seems to be the the bitch will be bred anyway, so it might as well be to their dog.

IF the GDB are careful in their vetting of the bitches quality, then I would imagine that the resulting litters will be equally (if not more) appropriate for the average pet owner than pure show or working breeding. :-)

Nice to see someone with my breeds best interests at heart though! :-)

Isabel they could do all that without weekly adverts for dog "S" at Stud" quite easily through their repuation. Of course I am not saying my view is right it is just my view.. :-))

Hi Isabel, :-)

Most labradors do have good temperaments anyway, most can be trained and a huge percentage are handsome ( I know their is exception but in general).

I think they should raise money some other way. For a breed to give so much to them they should give something back and I don't think that is using them at stud..imho :-)

Using your dog at stud does NOT open up your bloodlines because they are not your puppies :-)))  

They may choose to take a puppy for stud fee. I don't think it's fair to assume they would be any less stringent in accepting a bitch than other stud owners either.

Hi Isabel, :-)

I for one have never said and never implied that they are less stringent in their acceptance that is not my issue at all. I just think if they want to raise money ( I can only see that being the motive for doing it) they should raise money some other way.. Not labradors.  They already breed the bitches and pet home the surplus , I am assuming they will get some income from this. They do not need to put thier dogs to outside bitches.  We have enough top quality studs dogs already who probably are better than theirs.  ( I stress probably as I cannot say for sure)

Yes they may possible take a puppy for a stud fee but doing that rather than selecting for their own litter seems a long way around it.

As you are so interested in their motive and believe it is driven by money why not get it from the horse's mouth and ask them directly yourself?

Then instead of pointless speculation you will find out the facts..............

Would seem the logical thing to do, rather than wonder.........

Tohme " pointless speculation"   how is my post pointless speculation..

I have replied to you posts in a freindly and constructive manner, I have said I don't see how they are relavant to my point but never said they were pointless speculation.. 

You are entitled to your view and seeing as it is a discussion board how can it be pointless.  That pointless it has had some traffic...;-)

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to go through the possible motives , and iliminating the none applicables does it ;-)

As you know because something is tested or successfully worked doesn't mean it is an ideal specimen of the breed.. 

Tohme " pointless speculation"   how is my post pointless speculation..

I have replied to you posts in a freindly and constructive manner, I have said I don't see how they are relavant to my point but never said they were pointless speculation.. 

You are entitled to your view and seeing as it is a discussion board how can it be pointless.  That pointless it has had some traffic...;-) . If it is pointless and boring you then don't take part. :-)

Back to the thread,   It doesn't take a brain surgeon to go through the possible motives , and iliminating the none applicables does it ;-)

In addition as you know because something is tested or successfully worked doesn't mean it is an ideal specimen of the breed and should be bred from.. 

But if they are every bit as stringent as others why shouldn't their dog be the one :)
There you go again speculating as to motive ;), maybe they would like the money but maybe they see dodgy labs out there and think "Mmmmm mine would contribute more", isn't that the way most stud owners think?  I'm sure Smudgely will correct me if I am wrong ;) but I believe there is very, very few surplus puppies these days due to the great success with their breeding for temperament.

Isabel I see loads of not so well bred labradors and own a very nice one myself but that doesn't mean I should have a litter from her in my opinion.. and add to the growning numbers :-)

They are a charity that people have given support to , they are charity that the labrador breed has given so much to,  I don't personally think because they " think" their labradors are better than those they see around they should put theirs out to stud.

Well quite but seeing their advert has not made you change your mind and breed her.  If you had been of a mind to I don't see why the GDB would encourage you, with an unsuitable bitch, any more than any other stud dog owner so the end result, a litter or not, would be the same.
If thinking your dog is a cut above is not a good enough reason then it is not a good enough reason for anyone else either :)  Assuming all equal in the health check, temperament, breed type departments.

PS The charity people are giving to is for people not dogs :)

Hi Isabel, I think maybe my wording has made you miss my point, I understand the charity is about the people but a lot of people have " donated" lines to that is what I was meaning. The breed and people who have the breed at heart have given to the charity..

Not sure if that makes sense.  I think we have lost the way a bit with the post or certainly my intent by it :-))

Isabel not everyone has seen or understands how bad the situation is with labradors. Had I not been involved with the breed I show, I wouldn't have known about the BRS, or have became freinds with people that run rescues etc so I think I am probably is a better position that most of the jo public who want to breed from their bitch.. again just my opinion..

This supply and demand, and any man for himself is the reason that labradors are being affected so badly and to give and example of this just look at the population of China :-))  Restrictions in place about how many children you can have  etc .. is there really that much difference..

I do understand your concerns regarding that aspect and indeed share them.  I just think that if any dog is to be used at stud why not the GDB one.  Its the bitches (well their owners :)) that dictate how many litters are brought into the world.  Not sure what you are saying about China are you saying the number of litters should be limited to some sort of quota per dog.  Well yes I could go along with that but I would expect the GDB dog to get the same allowance as any other.

Or perhaps we should place the bitch puppies in the "dying rooms"............................

Are you suggesting that only a certain amount of puppies per litter would be allowed? There are already limits on how many litters a bitch can have (if you abide by the regulations anyway), so that would be the only other option.

I must admit the Guide dogs I've met have had super temperaments - if people are going to choose a stud dog purely on advertisements then a Guide Dog stud would be far better than dogs with less suitable natures.
:)

I would like to ask why would anyone with a Labrador who has some knowledge of breeding & conformation etc.  would feel the need to use a Guidewell stud dog?    The gene pool in Labradors is open enough, to breed consistently, typy dogs with correct conformation requires a good deal of knowledge on line breeding and knowing the strengths & weaknesses of your bitch, the stud dog & the generations behind them.   Could you say that with any of the Guide dogs studs?   Have any breed judges assessed the quality of the Guidewell studs?   There are enough show & working bred Labrador studs (IMO) to fulfill the needs of any serious Labrador breeder.  

From what I have seen of 'typical' Guide Dog bred Labradors they lack correct type, most are far too high on the leg & not one I have seen has the correct Otter tail, yes their temperaments are good but so are hundred's of pet owned Labradors and you'd decry anyone with a pet Lab who wanted to breed!

There are lots of dog competing in various competitions and who might be successful in them but it doesn't mean that they should be bred from either.   Just because a dog holds all it's correct health tests doesn't make it a good brood/stud dog.     If that was the case, the big black Lab that used to live next to the PO here would have had a queue to use him as he was a lovely natured boy!!!!  

To be honest the Guide Dogs' labs I've seen are more like the photos of early labs than the modern show lab ...

I don't think I have ever seen a pure bred GD Labrador so I can't really comment, outside their breeding stock I'm not sure they are all that common.  My friend puppy walked for them but always had the usual lab/golden cross, they could have been mistaken for rather odd labs :).  I usually go out of my way to chat to owners but the only pure bred I have ever met, myself, was a Golden Retriever.

We have a Guide Dog Centre at Forfar which is about 20 miles from Dundee so I see several puppies being walked and believe me none have been typical looking Labs.    I also saw a GSD puppy being walked and it's temperament was dreadful, snappy & aggressive.

I would have to say that none of them resemble Bramshaw Bob in type either who was a top winning Lab in his day (1930's).

Are you sure the puppies are not crosses, most of the working ones are, my friends puppies were often very lab-like in coat.

I'm told my mother's old GR was Guide Dog sired, and someone from the GDBA came to assess the litter to see if they thought any would be suitable for them - they had first pick. If that's normal practice then yes, it would be opening up their bloodlines, because the bitch was unrelated to theirs.
:)

Just to correct you on one point Isabel.
GD's breed about 1200 pups per year.  :)

Sorry Smudgley :), doesn't alter my point though.