What would you do?  I have a 15 year old niece who seems to be totally out of control.  More than that though she seems to be quite cruel and manipulative too.  She lives with my Sister (who's husband has left her) though my niece still sees him.

I've recently had a long chat with my sister who is suffering with depression and is waiting for an appointment to see a psychiatric nurse.  From the sounds of it her husband brought their daughter up from an early age to have no respect for her mum.  She told me of an incident where they both sat and chanted "let the b*tch die" at her.

Recently my niece has been even more problematic.  She has said that when she turns 16 she wants a double bed in her room so that she can have boys over to stay and when my sister said no, not in her house she then threatened to burn her bed and basically the house down.

She has lads of about 20 come calling at the house, my sister has found a plank of wood under her bed which looks to be weapon shaped.  She intimidates and scares the hell out of her.

She has been violent to my sister on a few occasions and yet really knows how to turn on the water works at the same time.  She's found sympathy at school by crying to her teachers that Mum can't cope because she's ill and the teacher's in turn have given my niece counselling and have told her all about depression and basically given her the ammunition so that she knows exactly how to hurt my sister even more.

I just honestly don't know what to do for the best.  My sister has been given anti-depressants from the doctor but is too scared to take them as she knows they can make her feel "floaty" and if she feels like that she'll lose the little bit of control she feels she has.

I can't talk to my niece about this because I don't know what she'd do to my sister behind closed doors and I really don't think it would do any good.

I'm just at a loss as to what I can do to help?  I know that many of you on this site are mothers and probably have experience of difficult teenagers - unfortunately I'm the youngest in our family and so really don't know what to do for the best.

I've told my sister that when she turns 16 she should just kick her out or let her Dad have her - at least then she'll have a bit of a break to try and get herself better - all this stress and worry is making her more depressed and its a nasty vicious circle that she's in.

hi charanda i have a teenage son who sounds to be an angel incomparising to youre niece! but last year he was going through an awful stage ha even got put on a banning order although i did have the support of my OH and family and agreed on what punishment to give out so what we did was i took his telly stero playstation e.t.c out of his room didnt buy him any new clothes and he had no treats aswell as been grounded but i also sat him down and told him why we had done that what effect his behaviour was having on us and his younger brothers and if he didnt change drasticlly we would have no choice to but to place him in care! i also found him a job at our local car wash so he learnt a bit of responsibility since then he has been a changed boy. it must be difficult for youre sister as she gets no backing up of OH but she has to stick to her guns and if her daughter doesnt like the rules she sets for her then pack her daughters bags herself but only put in anything the daughter has bought for herself and if thats nothing then she leaves with nothing and ship her to her dads and see if he can hack the responsability of bringing up a teenager

Thanks saffie!!  My sister has tried the confiscating route but unfortunately my niece is now taller and stronger than my sister and has just pushed her aside and taken them back again.  My sister is 5ft and only weighs about 8 stone so isn't really much of a match for her!!

I just don't think she's strong enough to kick her out at the moment - she's just exhausted and scared of repercussions if she does try it.

Your sister could call Social Services and ask for their help - I'm not sure how much help they will give her though - it depends upon the area and also the policy of the area whether they will be supportive of your sister or neice!!

You say you are the youngest in the family - have you other brothers/sisters with children who might be able to back your sister up?    Seems like this young lady needs boundaries setting!

Margot

it sounds like youre niece has no respect for her mum at all then. as iam only 4ft 10 and my son is 5ft 4 but he has never once pushed me! as for taking her stuff youre niece must go out so i would remove it then and take it to youre house if possible. as youre sister sat down and talked with her adult to adult and explained how she is making her feel. or is it just turning into a slanging match every time they talk if this is the case then maybe they need a mediator maybe you or someone impartial youre sister needs to sort this out quick or it is going to make her have a breakdown then where will she be! if you need to get involved back youre sister up as it sounds like the daughter is getting the better of everyone. and at the end of the day she is the child here and you and youre sister are the adults and she should be respecting youre sisters rules.

Hi Hayley!
As you know I'm not a mum.. or an aunt... or got much to do with any kids at all really, so you can all tell me to shut up if you want!!!
I've been watching a programme on TV recently called "don't blame the parents" Have you seen it? I was amazed at the behaviour of both the children and the parents... some of these kids are way way out of control, maybe similar to your neice? I'm not saying your sister is a bad parent, but something has gone wrong somewhere and it sounds like it may be coming from the lack of respect her father has for your sister? Any way, these parents are going to parenting classes to help get them back on track. Just being able to talk to other people in similar situations seems to be helping some of them, maybe there is a support group like this that your sister can contact?
Does your neice listen to you? or another member of your family? maybe she needs a mentor? (sp?)
Hope things get better for your sis.
Joules x

Thanks Margot - I think I'll try contacting the Social Services for her to get some advice, my sister has got such low self esteem at the moment that she hasn't got the confidence to talk to anyone she doesn't know.

Joules - I've watched a couple of them too and yes, she is just like one of them!!  I may try and find out if there are any classes or support groups in the area.  That is something I could do to help my sister if I offered to take her and go and support her.

Unfortunately our family is a bit disjointed.  I have 2 brothers and my sister but none of us really keep in touch - for no particular reason than my brothers joined the RAF and Army at 18 and have since made their lives in other towns and countries and me being 13 years younger than my sister have never really had anything in common with her.  Its only recenlty that I've found out that all of this is happening and I feel awful for her and really want to help her.

My niece did used to listen to me though I think I've made things worse there slightly today.  She had texted my Mum telling her that she was a disgrace to the family for not phoning my sister on her birthday yesterday.  My Mum is extremely poorly at the moment and really didn't need it and so I did have words with her.  I did however say that there were obvioulsy far too many things to be said by text and I offered to meet up with her to talk about things but she totally snubbed me and said she doesn't want to talk to me or her Nan. 

I just don't know  :-(

I think if she can stay with her dad for a while (though he doesn't sound very promising) it would give your sister a break at least. No idea about what to do longterm, I'm afraid.

I've suggested that too but apparently her Dad isn't in a situation to have her.  I believe they have problems with his new girlfriends son - aged nine who still has not learned to use the toilet - yuk!! and basically he has no room for her.

I think he should have her anyway - maybe living in hellhole for a couple of weeks would make her realise just how good she has got it!!

Thank for your advice anyway.  I'm so much stronger than my sister and just wouldn't put up with this but its hard to know how I can help her - especially when she doesn't know either.  :-(

Are there grandparents or aunts and uncles who could board her for a few weeks?

My parents live too far away to be able to take her in and whats more my mum is just recovering from a heart attack 2 weeks ago.  The other grandparents unfortunately her nan has alzeimers (sp) and her granddad is her full time carer and so I don't think it would be possible and no, no other aunties and uncles apart from me and I really don't feel qualified and am a bit out of my depth!!

Hi Charanda,

Ahhh  teenager's and worse still teenage girls, it's always the parent who has to be responsible for a child when a relationship breaks down to get the full force of that childs anger,  it sounds as though she does things to shock and hurt!!  a reflection of how she probably feels herself and doesn't know how to deal with it, after all what 15 yr old does.
It sounds as though your sister could do with some advice and support but not critisism as this only ever has a negative effect on anyone who maybe struggling already,  hopefully the psychiatric nurse will be able to offer her some sound advice.
As for the daughter she also needs help to come to terms with her anger as this is most certainly a result of her confusion on how adults have behaved,  I dont agree with kicking her out as she then becomes someone elses problem and after all she's hurting too despite her cruel behaviour, like your sister she too has some serious issues that need dealing with, the boy thing is probably a combination of hormones and a need ( if misguided ) to feel loved.
Please dont just write her off as dealing with her as a person will also help your sister.
sorry I couldnt be of any real help but I do at least understand your unfortunate situation and wish you all the best of luck, keep on posting if it helps and maybe someone else will have good advice.
take care

I suspect your sister is going to have to toughen up bigtime in order to stop this child walking all over her.

Does she tend to roll over to avoid confrontation with her daughter? If so, there's the problem. Darling daughter will just keep pushing till she meets resistance. I'm afraid that until she started behaving better she'd be on a restricted priveliges - including no TV, grounding etc etc - and if she didn't like it, she could naff off!!

But then I am determined not to end up with Brat Camp kids, so I am maybe a bit stricter :)

ChloeH - you seem to have pretty much the same opinion as me!!  I am quite strict and would put up with no nonsense!!  ;-)

She tries to stand up to her however when she has she has been hit and its not a matter of confidence here its down to pure physical strength - she is simply not strong enough or big enough to be able to stand up to her physically.

I think she obviously has problems - my niece that is - that need dealing with and perhaps I should try to talk to her again.  She appears to feel let down by the whole family though I don't know why.

I guess people deal with things in different ways - I seem to be as tough as old boots, some of the stuff thats gone on in my life and I've dealt with it.  Maybe I should remember that not everyone deals with things as well and maybe this is why she's behaving like she is.

At the same time I feel frustrated that by going down the sit her down and talk about all the hurt thats inside her etc etc just doesn't cut the mustard - she's behaving horribly and she KNOWS the difference between right and wrong and knows that she's doing wrong and she should really be the one apologising and making amends.

Right - I've written my niece a little letter, saying that I'm sorry if we fell out earlier but explaining that what she did was still wrong.  I've said that I know she doesn't want to talk to me but I really hope she changes her mind and I've promised just to listen to all she has to say.  I've said that I know we don't keep in touch very well but thats nothing personal and just the way that things happen sometimes and that I hope very much she will get in touch and we'll meet up.

I'm going to try calling Social Services tomorrow to get some support for my sister and will offer to go with her as support.

At least if I can get my niece to talk to me then I can try and talk to her about why she is like how she is with my sister but I've got to get her to talk about it first - otherwise she'll know my sister has spoken to me and then all hell will break loose!!

So all in all I've now taken on all of these problems, plus worry about my mum who's not well, plus moving house next week plus extra stuff at work.....it never rains but it pours eh?!?!

Thanks all for your support and I will keep posting if thats okay - I'm way out of my depth with this kind of thing and just hope that I make things better rather than worse!!

glad to be off help charanda and hope this helps you are certainly on the right track keep posting and i will offer as much help and support i can :)

I have written three different answers to this post I cant believe that this child is getting away with so much it makes my blood boil.
Mum obviously cant cope and she needs help.
Have you considered the fact that she may be dabbling in drugs?
It is so common these days unfortunately.

Also mention to her Docs what is going on as I am sure that they can also help to get a social worker involved ! :

Lucy
xx

Charander,this is not normal teenage difficulties and you should help your sisiter to take some action.
You should start by accompanying her to see her GP to explain the difficulties she is having.  Anti-depressants can take 2-3 weeks to kick in and side-effects often diminish round about this time too.  Yes, the floaty feeling is a nuisance but only usually lasts a few days.  Alternatively, the GP can try another one if this particular drug is not helpful.  Please encourage her to persevere with the treatment as in the long run if she can tackle her depression  she will be more able to tackle her daughter.
There are many voluntary organisations out there who can offer support and advice.  Look up Depression Alliance who are very good.
I have suffered from depression as did my mother and too my sadness, so does my teenage daughter.  It may be that your niece has some unresolved issues which you are unaware of.  There is help out there but your sister may feel too depressed to seek it out. That is where you can support her.  First step would be back to the GP, go with her, explain about your niece, let them know how bad it is - ask for their advice. If no joy, you could phone the duty office at your social service department.

I do hope this helps.

Have you spoken to your sister about calling social services?  I would make sure that I did before involving them as it may not be what she wants.  Obviously she does need some help and you seem willing to provide it.  I would suggest that if your niece is beyond listening, to firstly get your sister to write a letter to her daughter, explaining what she expects from her while living in her house and what will happen if she doesn't follow the rules.  As others have said, removing all priviledges and making your niece realise what it would be like without them, may make her take notice.  If she removes stuff while her daughter is out, and doesn't let her have them back (as someone said put them at your house perhaps), then her daughter will know she is serious.  She has obviously been allowed to carry on as she pleases and needs to be stopped - having boundaries makes young people feel safe and she probably feels out of control.

I know of 2 very out of control teenage girls and one boy, and all three of them are given everything they DEMAND!  All have parents who give in to them every time - although not always straightaway.

Fiona

I know I am not a mother, But I am 13, and I am a lil devil at times, but that souds a bit out of hand, has your sister ever had your niece checked out for behavoural problems? Sometimes they can do that when she has been brought up to show no respect.
Your sister should take the anti depressants, because she needs to keep her head in a situation where your niece does get violent, and being depressed at the time would not help!
That is my advice
hope it helps at least a little bit!

http://www.parentlineplus.org.uk/

Try out Parentline Plus - link above, as their website says "because instructions aren't included!"

Your sister will need help to adjust her ways of thinking and therefore her daughters behaviour.  We all develop bad habits that are difficult to break and anyone who has watched any of the stream of parenting programmes on TV recently will be able to begin to get to grips with adjusting our behaviours to sort out the 'cause and effect'.

Parentline Plus should be able to advise on the parenting courses mentioned above.  Good luck because she sounds like she needs it.

I have an 18 year old daughter who has gone of the rails at the mo and they only thing that has worked has been to back off from her and use a bit of reverse physcology, ie;- not to give any advise( they dont listen at this age anyway) give them the responsibility for anything that they do.

Do tell them that they are loved and you'll always be there for them but dont do anything for them, but if you do use it as a reward for good behaviour only!!!!

I know how frustrasting it is but dont rise to it, ignore it. This can take the wind out of their sails but it does take time and it normally works.

Good luck!!!

Your sister and niece have been so victimised.

Sounds like your niece is one angry young girl. Perhaps she feels so angry that she can only hurt the most vunerable person close to her i.e. your sister. I would bet that whilst your niece seems very in control and confident, she is not, and her self esteem and self image is possibly quite low  - and in her eyes she might be scared that she is becoming like your sister. Fear usually manifests itself by lashing out (flight or fight scenario in the wild). Her father has left, and her mother is now ill. She may feel in limbo and that no one really cares.
At your niece's age she is at her most vunerable - not quite an adult, but certainly not a child - and it is a time when they want to break lose (not condoning her behaviour in any way), but they also need to have security to fall back on. Perhaps in this situation she does not feel secure - and angry that sister is not strong (at the moment).
Your sister and your niece need support, both of them. I am not sure how social services work in your part of the UK, but I would look at getting your sister involved in some group, or one to one sessions to improve her self confidence and self respect.
Talking to your niece is good, she needs to talk, but don't say "I understand what your are going through or "I know what it feels like" these phrases are tantamount to throwing petrol on a fire. Non confrontational, non committal statements like " I'm here to listen to you" usually provide a better opening.

Look in the public library for details on self help groups, some areas have support groups for single parents with "challenging" children.

As a matter of interest what is her behaviour like in school?

Wish you luck and hope the above helps.

Patricia

I'd  just like to thank you all for your replies and advice.  I've been away from Champdogs for the past week as I've been busy moving house!!

I have just come back on here to find all of your replies and am going to have a look at the suggested websites.  Now that life is back to normal for me (moving house with one weeks notice is rather manic) I am now going to offer my sister and niece all the support I can.

After writing the letter to my niece 2 weeks ago I never heard anything back from her and so am still presuming that she doesn't want to speak to me.  I'm going along the softly softly approach - I think she needs to feel that I'm there for her indefinitely before she will trust me to speak to her.  I think she seems to feel let down by the whole family (though she shouldn't) and I think I need to prove to her that I'm going to stay in touch and interested in her and what she's got to say.

I'm trying to help my sister by offering her support where she needs it.  I've had her over a couple of days last week to help me pack/unpack/clean etc etc and she said that she really appreciated it even though she was helping me as she said that it got her out of bed in the mornings!!

I'll keep you posted and thank you all once again for your help.

Hayley..xx

Charanda...Send your niece to me, i feel its attention that she's looking for and because your sister isn't feeling well your niece is worried about her... but because she's only 15 she can't give her mum a hug and tell her it will be o.k as thats too embarrassing for a 15 year old to do.

I was on anti depressants but didn't feel that they worked. I'm glad your there for your sister and niece even though its hard, but you will get through this.

As far as social services go i dont feel that they will help...i knew a boy that was 15 and he was beating his mum, she contacted social services for help and they came out and took the 15 year old boy out to mcdonalds... then her other children started to play her up as they saw the 15 year old hitting there mum and getting treated for it!!!!

Hope your mum's o.k now and your sister.
Take care. x

Try getting in touch with education they have specific board away schools for kids with severe behaviour problems where they are sending their parents through hell.

mmm... there's always the possibility of getting to the route of the problem and improving communication and relationships without the need for packing her off to a residential school!