I met Megan's half sister today, plus owner. In retrospect we both believe that they came from a puppy farm. THe are both short haired border collies with terrible temperaments, both dog aggressive, nervous, chase cars e.t.c. So what are they going to do, have a litter from her to calm her down!!!! The idea is terrifying! From what i have been told by their next door neighbour, the dog is rarely taken out, is so bored that she jsut runs around the garden barking and is generally not trained. How can anyone consider breeding from a dog that is, by the owners admission, a dog with a poor temperament. They even got their money back from the "breeder" ( i use that term loosely) because the dog was very ill when they first got her. I just can't believe the stupidity of this woman!

Have a cup of tea and sit down. Some peole just have never had any contact with good old "common sense" 

Everytime you see them them mention about vets bills/cost of puppies/cost of raising puppies/the work required/PLUS in this case the fact the new owners may (as they did) want there money back if there is something wrong with their dog and as there is obviously documented proof there was somthing wrong with "Mom" the puppies new owners case may be stronger.

But don't worry yourself too much you can't put the world to rights no matter how much we may want to.

Take care Karen

As Kazz says do keep mentioning the responsibilites that go with breeding. For a start if they don't do health tests such as eye testing or hip scoring, if a puppy is affected and they don't inform the buyer, the buyer could sue them. It is not unheard of. They will need to use a tested stud dog as well. There was a GSD breeder some years ago who bred a litter and did not hip score the dam or use a scored sire. The new owners bought a puppy,  it turned out the puppy had hip displaysia. The buyer asked the breeder for help and none was forth coming so the buyer took the breeder to court and the breeder was fined £3000 plus court costs because they had not done everything in their power to produce a puppy with less chance of hip displaysia.
With collies she would need to get the dam tested for eye problems then all being well use a tested stud dog. Then before the puppies went to their new homes, she would need to get them tested for collie eye anomaly. Any affected puppy, a buyer would need to know about before they bought it, so she would have to be prepared to draw up a sales contract stating that she has told the buyer that the puppy is affected.
She may well find that due to the high number of puppies produced in some breeds that she will not be able to sell the pups or even give them away. So is she prepared to run on puppies until they are 5 or 6 months of age? You could say how people feel about irresponsible breeders.

some people are so unbelievably naieve, and should not be allowed to own dogs )-;

Have a border collie, and rarely walk her?? Poor thing! :(

Why don't you make an anonymous call to a dog warden?

Are there laws on walking dogs or not??

I find it really upsetting that anyone would ever own a border collie and not give it exercise :(

Let alone breed from it when it has a dodgy temperament... Has she even done any health checks?

If a dog warden or something wont do anything, I would buy a book about RESPONSIBLE DOG OWNERSHIP wrap it up and post it through her letterbox.. Maybe it might give her some sense!

I think I need something stronger here than a cup of tea.?? Maybe the persons whose dog she thinks she may use will not allow it. Lets hope so.

poor b****Y dog, i hope to god they use a dog on her with a super temperment if they go ahead

IMO not exercising, (or giving stimulation via brain exercise) a dog like a border collie amounts to abuse. These dogs have come from working backgrounds. My dog would happily exercise all day if needs be, no doubt hers is the same, since from what i gather, they share the same father, who must have had terrible genes to pass on such bad temperments.

They are not necessarily from a puppy farm; they could well be from the sound of their looks and temperament be old fashioned farm collies. This doesn't mean they had to have come from a farm, just been bred from farm stock. Collies are the most instinctive breed of dog going. Because of their original background farm dogs are never 100% tame, they always have a slightly wild side. That is why farmers usually shoot them at retirement age; they could never get them inside the house to rest in old age. Their temperament is often not very good because they are too well attatched to their roots. Are they long and lanky as well?

I certainly agree with you about not breeding from her. Has the idea occured to them that if they let her have a litter it could make her even more instinctive and therefore nastier?

Good luck with convincing them otherwise.

Claire

Meg is quite small for a collie, so not really lanky and long. We were told that she came down from wales becuase one of her relations couldn't home the pups becuase of a death in the family. However a few months later she had another litter, again brought down from wales. So i'm not really sure. At the time they seemed genuine, because they were westie breeders with lots of certificates and proper kennels and the like, but the more i hear about them the more i have my doubts.
Hopefuully they may come to their senses, but given the type of people they are i seriously doubt it!

This makes me so mad!!!!
People really have no idea what they are letting themselves in for when they buy working breeds and its so cruel!!! These breeds need a good 2 hours a day free running and playing with their owners, whats the point in getting one if they dont want the work?!!!

Rant over......

if they cant be botherd to walk or train there bitch try to tell them how much work a litter is, a litter of 5, 5 week old pups can have you up at the crak of dawn to paly.  they will wee and poo every where and they coast loads to feed E.c.t ect ect

they do need stimulation i agree, but they dont need 2hours free running aday!!!!! mine will take whatever i give them but they certainly dont need that every day. & i think by doing this youd be creating a rod for your own back

Having a border collie and not exercising it... isn't that enough to be arrested for animal cruelty?

Ana theres very little can be done im afraid. We used to live on an estate and one of our neighbours had a lab that was the same width as a beer barrel. Never walked, its nails were curing under its pads and i called the RSPCA out. They saw food bowl with remains of a meal, clean water, clean bed and left saying the dog was cared for.

I reported my mother in law once!

She had a rough collie & she kept it in a down stairs toilet :-(

I was a tiny room as well, abour 7ft x 4ft.
Its coat was a mass of tangles, never walked, never given any attention.

As it was fed & watered there was nothing they could do.

I used to go there once a week & take it out & play with it, brush it etc.
I asked if she would let me have it but she would not let me.

It was PTS a few years ago & now she has a cat kept 0in there & two poms that she keeps almost all the time in their crates :-(

Some people should not be allowed to keep pets

Jo
xxx

did she know it was you who reported her? well done you!

My border collie Sam used to be taken out for most of the day until he collapsed, in the middle of the woods. I ended up carrying him for 2 miles to a friends house (closer than mine). I was advised not to walk him to far as the messages from his brain to his back legs was not getting through (simple teminology). I gave him more local walks after that. As that incident scared me, especially carry a dog of that weight. But we challenged him mentally.

I agree, i think dogs need stimulation of some form, but as you say michelle, there is no real way to tire a BC, so the more you give the more they take. As long as they get a decent run every day and lots of training, playing e.t.c. they will be fine. The trouble with this dog is that she is given neither exercise or stimulation.

infact,id go as far as to say IMO the mental is more important.
yesterday we were on the hills for hours,today ive had to work early so weve just gone around the park with a ball,which took 15mins but had lots of running. but they are played with throughout the day & eveing & do abit of training. they dont bother me to go out more, & infact are right couch potatos!!!!

I have two BCs, both farm bred and agree that mental stimulation is the quickest way of tiring them out.  As for walking them miles every day you will be creating a rod for your own back.  Imagine an athlete, i.e train for miles every day and that becomes easy so hence it will take even longer to tire it out. 

We have been out for three hours today along the beach and for a wander around Teignmouth whcih they loved for loads of new sounds, smells and other dogs to say hello to.  They have now crashed out in the garden for most of the afternoon watching the world go by.

As to what this person is doing it positively criminal, breeding from a dog that doesnt have a steady temprament is asking for trouble.  What are people going to think if they are considering buying one of the puppies and the bitch is showing aggresive tendancies?  Chances are they could end up with some of the puppies left - then what? 

I agree with Michelle and Claire. When I first got a bc I took him out for two 5 mile runs a day but soon found if I was ill or something 'came up' as things do in life, he would go stir crazy. Now I have got three collies and I give them major exercise about 4 times a week - 2x agility/flyball sessions which last hours, 1 or 2x 6/7mile run in harness with bike and then shows at the weekend. In between they have normal doggy exercise like round the park for half an hour. Mind you, in my dogs case that park walk consists of manic high speed runs with lots of barking! Cue funny looks from other people with their sedate mutts at the dangerous loons! :rolleyes: If you give them the highest possible exercise level every day they become resistant to it very quickly and simply demand more. I would never decribe mine as couch potatoes tho!

Back on subject, if Meg is 3, she and her littermates could have been part of the Foot and Mouth crisis. Farmers either drowned or shipped out loads of pups and adults at that time because they were all going out of business. Just a thought...............

Claire

Thats a point claire, i never thought of that. It does seem feasible.
I aggree with michelle, claire and dynbyker, meg is definately more tired after an hours clicker training session or half an hours agility than she is after an hour and a half walk. (and she doesn't walk any of it.)

Well at least we have a thread here that everybody agrees on.  Quite rare here at the moment.  BCs maybe nuts at times but I wouldnt swop to any other breed any day. 

Although it does annoy me when there are adverts in the newspaper for farm bred collies saying they will make great pets.  They dont -  unless you know what you are doing and have experience of them.  I was brought up with them so 32 years on I like to think I do have a couple of well adjusted ones.

Claire

I know. A friend of mine actually bought another of megs half brothers, (i didn't know at the time). She was a single mother at 20 with a 1yr odl and another on the way. Her friend took her to see the litter. THe poeple selling the pups were actually westie breeders and my friend expressed an interest in having a westie, and was told that because she had young children they wouldn't sell her a westie. But a working bred farm collie is fine! Needless to say it didn't last long and she rehomed it when the second was born.
Infact, i am the first to admit that they shouldn't have sold me a pup either, as i was 18 years old and this was to be my first ever dog. (Not even had a family dog.) When asked which they reccommended, they selected the quietest pup that was hiding in the corner. NOt the best choice really. As it turned out it was fine as i am now very into training, infact that is now  going to be  part of my career, but at the time we had no idea what training any dog was like!
Mind you, saying that i would love another in a few years time, if circumstances permit!!

Well Lucy, it shows that even when things seem to be going, or have gone, wrong, something good can come of it. At least you have grabbed the bull (or collie!) by the horns and have learnt something from your situation. And from the sound of it, are going to use your experience to help others. Other people, like Meg's sisters owners, don't bother trying to learn from their experience and use ignorance to get themselves out of a hole. They basically have 2 options, one is to adapt their circumstances to try to help the dog by doing agility for example, the other is to find her a more suitable home. Breeding from her certainly isn't one of the them! :rolleyes: