I have a 3 yr old Border collie bitch (spayed)-meg, a 2 yr old goldie bitch (spayed)-ellie, and last month aquired a 10 month old male springer spaniel - murphy. Meg the collie was less than impressed at this, as she is dog aggressive, and it took a long time for her to accept his presence. WE had ellie from a puppyso meg has been fine with her, although they have had a few arguments, mainly over food and toys as ellie can be a little possessive of things, but no blood has ever been shed. Ellie and meg have great games together. Now meg has finally accepted murphy she actually gets on quite well with him, occaisionally trying to initiate play with him. (ellie is the only other dog meg will play with). They play quite nicely until ellie joins in, and her response is to mount one of them, usually megan (something she used to do a little in the past, but it is much worse now) Aand grip tightly with her paws, whilst thrusting. (apologies for the graphic description!!) Meg doesn't like this (understandably) and tries to get away but ellie gets very aggressive about it, growling and snarling. If we physically take her by the collar and try to pull her off it only makes her worse and a fight usually breaks out. We have tried distraction but this doesn't usually work. Ellie, doesn't really play with murphy, (strange as she plays with other dogs much more). I really want to allow meg to play with murphy so we have tried to keep her seperated when they play, but this seems so unfair. I think it is mainly excitement that starts it off (she will sometimes do it if meg has a go at another dog, which dosn't help much), but before murphy's arrival i would have said in many ways she was "top dog". Since murphy's arrival she has been quite stressed and depressed, which has resulted in her sleeping a lot and being a little more grumpy than usual. So my question is, is it ever possible for 3 dogs to play nicely together, why is ellie mounting all the time and how can we stop it?
ANy ideas would be gratefully recieved!

OK, the mounting behaviour has nothing to do with, er, reproduction, it is all about dominance. Ellie is pack leader and it is her job to control her pack. In her eyes that pack consists soley of Megan. She hasn't accepted Murphy as part of her pack yet. By mounting Meg she is asserting her leadership, saying quite firmly who can play with whom and when. The reason she is getting aggressive when you pull her off is probably a combination of two things; firstly you are behind her presumably, pulling her off and up - into an even more dominant postion, holding her up by her collar ready to desend on the others! The second is she sees your intervention as backup. She thinks you as alpha leader are coming to her aid.

What you need to stop the mounting behaviour is a distraction such as water thrown over them or a tin filled with stones to throw on the floor and make a very loud noise. With careful handling where you make it clear to Ellie she is boss and give them time to become a true pack I believe this will sort itself out. At least you have got a male rather than another bitch - them you would have had trouble!

If Murphy understands pack rules he will keep out of the way of the bitches. I think part of the problem you have got is that Ellie and Meg are too close in age and so it is not obviously clear who is alpha, plus with Megan's temperament as it is doesn't help. Unfortunately many collies are like that. Is Meg a Border Collie or Working Sheepdog out of interest?

HTH. Good luck with you problem,

Claire

I reckon the mounting is due to over excitment and stress as much as anything. I also reckon Ellie is very upset that Murphy is "muscling in" on her relationship with Meg and is showing her frustration at the upset. A dog in a highly aroused state may get a bit aggressive or warn when being pulled off and ideally I would not pull her off but keep  her on a longish line so you can pull her off with a Off command if necessary (so as not to collar grab).

It's good that you want Meg and Murphy to play but not sure what message it's sending to Ellie if she is stopped from joining in (even though she is behaving very in a very difficiult manner just now!).

Just a few thoughts, hard to tell though without actually seeing them all and knowing their personalities well ;)

Lindsay
X

I know, i feel awful having to keep her away from them when they start, but she tends to start arguements as soon as she sees them start. Shes actually being worse than usual this week, barking at people out on the walk, pulling on the lead and her noew hobby that she has discovered of chase the rabbits. I am not impressed!! THis last week i have been house and dog sitting for 2 jack russels (ones about 6yrs and the other 6 months) and an elderly dachsie, and i had meg and ellie with me during the night. Very vocal dogs, so i think perhaps that is where the barking has stemmed from. I have also been walking very late in the woods which i don't usually do and all the rabbits were out in force. Once she had seen once she became adicted. SOmething i really need her to stop! She just generally seems more exciteable this week, which has increased the mounting behaviour. I understand that it has been very confusing for them though, im glad things can now get back to normal.
Claire, although she has no papers meg is probably classed as a working sheepdog, as her parents worked, and she is short haired.

'although she has no papers meg is probably classed as a working sheepdog'

I thought a working sheepdog WAS a border collie without papers! :)

Yes, Ana, a working sheepdog is a border collie with no papers of sorts. Both parents have to be registered with the kc to call the offspring Border Collies. So, for example, the winner of best of breed for a bc could in theory end up in a rescue centre, you could take it home and despite its winnings, would have to resister it as a wsd if you wanted to compete with it in obedience, agility, field trials and so on. However, because of the large gene pool that surrounds collies, from farm dogs to breed dogs, there is a huge difference in them, hence the variety of colours, body shape, etc.

Many people will say there is no difference at all, but when I used to stand in the stay ring waiting for all the numbers and breeds to be taken, I used to make a game of guessing which was which, and I was always right! :p Of course, it depends on what they are bred for too. My middle collie is a bc and yet he is very wsd in his outline and temperament, but then, he was bred to work and so still has the old working dog look. My youngest is a wsd as he is a rescue, but he looks the most bc of the bunch! Chances are, he came from a more breed line, although he was bought from a pet shop so not a very nice one!

Collies are very complicated dogs to understand. I have grown up with them and spent years researching and trying to understand them and yet I am only scraping the surface. One thing is for sure though, never a dull moment and plenty of fun! :-)

I know, I was being sarcastic.. sorry! :)

I've researched border collies a lot too... can't wait til I get mine!! Hopefully sometime next year :)

Just wondering, what is the 'show shape' and what is the 'working shape'??

I have seen a lot of different shaped border collies... some are long and low, some are tall and bulky, some are slim and lanky looking etc..

There should be  in my eyes no difference between show dogs & workig dogs, there are however two types of BC that work(never owned a show bred dog)There are the shorter stockier Lowland bred dogs & the taller more slender(& having owned both)more agile Hill or Highland bred dogs, they have slightly different working styles too insomuch as the Hill/highland dogs sometimes work out of sight but not earshot of the shepherd & may have to disobey a command to work the sheep(for instance if to go say right at the command of the shepherd would mean forcing the sheep over a cliff)correctly & these type don't make good obedience dogs as they often think of shortcuts & deviations to their training. The Lowland dogs on the whole are more biddable & make better dog sport dogs

Interestingly enough my last two dogs were one of each type & the Hill/Highland dog was much more steady & precise, but he often devised his own way of doing things. The other dog(lowland type) was much quicker to respond & often rushed things because he simply wanted to get thing done asap. Having said that my first male was a mixture of both & had the speed of the lowland & the precision of the highland dog

Another thing I noticed was my Highland dog had almost "hare feet" & the lowland had tight cat feet

I've only had them 35 years this year & I'm still learning ;)most of my experience is the original working side rather than the more recent show side, but all three of my male dogs were successful in the show ring !

It's worth having a look at the books by E B Carpenter & Barbara Swann to see what working dogs look like or have a look here for some sheep working ISDS bred dogs this is were hopefully my next one is comming from

<Both parents have to be registered with the kc to call the offspring Border Collies.>

Not quite correct as none of my BCs have ever had parents registered with the KC but both they & their parents have been ISDS registered which means they in the eyes of the KC are BCs (Even though ISDS registration certificates state Border Collie(or Working Sheepdog))My next dog will be ISDS only registered too

sorry what i meant was, she isn't registered with either the KC or the ISDS. I thought to be a true working sheepdog you had to be registed with this. I'm sorry if i got confused. Please don't be sarcastic just because i don't know something. I have yet to meet someone who knows everything. :-(

hiya, will try to explain!!!

ISDS reg- WORKING SHEEPDOGS (all with pedigrees as long as your arm) working lines . however if you have one of these you can also register it with the KC as a BC. (even if the parents are only on the ISDS reg)& therefore compete in breed . this is the "first" registry & all may also be regd with the KC

KC reg-BORDER COLLIES,can be shown in breed classes. these can also be registered  "by merit" with the ISDS, IFthey are skilled talented sheepworkers

KC activites reg-working sheepdogs. these can be any of the following, a dog with totally unknown or unreged parentage
a dog with half BC & half unreg/unknown parentage, or a dog which has been bred on "obedience"/"agility" lines,ie has a pedigree aslong as your arm but are all on the activites reg. or any other mixture you can think of.

anyclearer?

further more a farmer may or may not register his working dogs with the isds,most wouldnt unless he was a enthausast or did some sheep trials.
so although a farmer may own "working sheepdogs" because they work,it dosent mean that they are offiaclly ISDS working sheepdogs

to add, an eg;

you have one ISDS only reg dog & one KC only reg bitch,the offspring can  be reg on the KC registry (breed ) & not on the ISDS

i have three "working sheepdogs" all on the activites reg

TARA-no further details all unreg parents

NELLIE- dad unreg farm dog,but a "worker",mum a half NZ,half English KC reg dog,with some isds in the tail end

Flynn- Dad,a line of obedience dogs & a line of ISDS CH sheep dogs, MUM a line of obedience bred dogs & a line of obedience bred BCs

Thanks, thats made more sense.