If anyone knows of a wolfdog hybrid breeder could they please contact me on berniconnolly@hotmail.com.
many thanks
berni

If you're in the UK it's not possible I'm afraid, as they're classed as 'Dangerous Wild Animals', need a special licence and have to be kept caged (like zoo animals).

There are however lots of people who will tell you they DO breed them, and if you want to part with £1000+ for a husky cross, then more fool you!

True! There are always people willing to relieve the gullible of their money!

I have a 75% wolf cross which I keep in the UK as a normal dog.  We tell everyone he is a husky cross, which he is - 25% husky, 75% wolf.  We were cynical that there was not much, if any wolf, in him when we purchased him (incidentally, for £500, not £1,000).  Frankly, we didn't care, we just fell in love with the "breed".  We have since discovered that in fact he is a wolf cross, what percentage we can never be sure because the lady who bred him is now dead.

Dogs and wolves are exactly the same species - the term wolf "hybrid" is a complete misnomer.  There is no such thing.  Genetically they are same, and have been reclassified as such.  That said, fool's and their money are soon parted, and I am sure there are con artists in the UK who breed so called "wolf dogs" and they are just husky/mal/GSD cross.  GSD's are of course wolfdogs themselves - the breed, (along with belgian's, pyranean mountain dogs, maremma, japanese akita to name but a few) were created by crossing wolves with a type of sheepdog in Alsatia.  Thus, when wolfdogs are impounded by the local council because they have even as little as 1% wolf, it is blatantly ridiculous, because that means that every single GSD should also be impounded!  It is illegal to keep any dog in the UK, except for N Ireland, if it has as little as 1% wolf in it.  So therefore people like me just say that their dog is a husky cross.  It is absolutely impossible for anyone to prove otherwise, despite all the tosh that people spout.

We bred a litter from our boy with a Utonogan, and the breeder who owned the bitch sold the pups for £500 as Utonogan's.  We are planning to have another litter with him and are thinking of going over to Northern Ireland, where the "breed" is legal to buy a bitch puppy, or to find a mate for our boy.

Let me put people's minds at rest as to the nature, reliability or otherwise of these magnificent animals.  Provided they are properly socialised right from the word go when you bring your little bundle of fluff home (and this goes for any dog of course), you will not have a problem with these guys.  Yes, they are wilful, destructive, disobedient if they wish to be, although they are so intelligent that they know and understand everything you say, everything you think, before you have said it or thought it.  If you are a "Stepford Wife" type, then forget it, 'cos these guys DIG - our garden looks like Colditz.  I take the view if you want an immaculate home and garden, then don't get a husky.  They dig for the olympics, believe me.  The 75% wolf in our boy just makes the urge to dig 10 times worse of course - where do wolves live?  Underground, in dens, so the desire to dig is paramount, and believe me, he can outdig a JCB!  You CAN NOT leave these guys alone - no going out to work, even for a few hours, and leaving them in the house, kennel, garden, run, or whatever.  They will howl continuously until you return.  Their pack instinct is huge, and they suffer from terrible separation anxiety if parted from their "pack".  So, foreign holidays are out really - yes, you can take dogs on the ferry, but I believe they have to be left below decks in special kennels - no good, very bad.  I have not been abroad in the 8 years we have had our boy, and I consider it a small price to pay for the privilege of "owning" such a magnificent creature.  We take our boy everywhere with us.  Pubs that don't take dogs, don't get our custom.  He is healthy - the only time he has had to go to the vet in his 8 years is when a rotty cross collie ripped his scalp off, and when we tried to get him to eat the disgusting pig swill called "complete" dog food that vets seem to think is so good for our dogs in this country.  As soon as we got him onto the BARF diet, everything went well.  Otherwise, he has had no trips to the vet.  He does not have inoculations - he had his first 3 year's worth, but no more.

These guys are so different from ordinary dogs, but it is mainly all positives, not negatives.  More healthy - by 100 fold, more loyal, more intelligent, more interesting, more challenging, more work (all those walkies, very healthy!), just MORE !  I am mad about these guys, and will never, ever ever have another pedigree again if I can help it.  With over 2000 known genetic diseases affecting pedigrees, who needs it - only the vets I guess who make a fortune out of it!  That's a bit unfair, but you know what I mean!

If you want a "collie" type dog - total adoring obedience - don't get a WD.  If they so choose, they can be totally disobedient and take great pleasure in seeing steam coming out of your head in your efforts to get them to come.  They won't run away exactly - its just they won't always come!  Very frustrating when 95% of the time, our boy is pretty obedient - especially considering there's husky in there, and huskies are not noted for their obedience or ability to walk to heel!

I'll shut up now!

Um, how do you know he's 75% wolf if the lady who bred him is now dead?

I have a 75% wolf cross which I keep in the UK as a normal dog.  We tell everyone he is a husky cross, which he is - 25% husky, 75% wolf.  We were cynical that there was not much, if any wolf, in him when we purchased him (incidentally, for £500, not £1,000).  Frankly, we didn't care, we just fell in love with the "breed".  We have since discovered that in fact he is a wolf cross, what percentage we can never be sure because the lady who bred him is now dead.

or am I missing the point completely? :)

Plus they should have a special licence for keeping the animal

Well just lets hope no one traces you from this post as of course you need a wild animal licence with all that entails to keep any species that is part wild animal like your "wolf hybrid" Cannot remember the fine etc for not doing so but I know the first thing that happens is the animal is removed from the home

There was a woman in South Yorkshire that claimed to be breeding wolf hybrids & they took all her dogs, they were not wolf hybrids at all but Sibe x Mals

>We were cynical that there was not much, if any wolf, in him when we purchased him (incidentally, for £500, not £1,000).  Frankly, we didn't care, we just fell in love with the "breed".  We have since discovered that in fact he is a wolf cross, what percentage we can never be sure because the lady who bred him is now dead.

So how, and where, did you find out along the line that he had any wolf in him and was not one of the many crosses touted around the UK claiming to have such (Do they all break into the Highland Wildlife Park in the middle of the night with their in season bitches and hope the pack don't kill her :p)
As you say fools and their money...........

>We bred a litter from our boy with a Utonogan, and the breeder who owned the bitch sold the pups for £500 as Utonogan's

Well now ...took me a few minutes to see this bit. Who was it was trying to tell us that Utonagans are now bred true to type? Obviously not then....

:(

Hmm - lots of questions there!  If anyone thinks I am stupid enough to say how I know my boy is a wolf and give details of the breeder who is now dead you must be joking!

The lady who sold the pups as utonagans did so because she could hardly say they were wolf crosses.  For the very reason that I deny my boy's ancestry, she would be mad to advertise the pups as anything other than utonagans, husky crosses, whatever you want to call them.  No-one, not DEFRA, not a vet, not Desmond Morris, not ANYBODY can say whether a dog is a dog or a wolf, or what percentage, but there is no need to invite trouble.  I am not saying how I know my boy is a wolf cross, I am just saying he is.

And those who make deprecating remarks about my boy, if you met us out walking, in the pub, wherever, you would instantly fall in love with him.  Anybody who likes dogs loves him.  He is just gorgeous - in looks, in personality, in temperament, in socialibility both with humans and other dogs.  Have you ever known an entire male be attacked by another entire male, be scalped, and not retaliate?  He's not a wimp by any manner or means, he just will not inflict serious damage on another dog, even when injured.  He was caught unawares by this dog, who was since discovered to have a brain tumour, poor thing, and was put down, so it wasn't his fault.  He is an absolute star - and what's more a healthy star.  I wouldn't give you tuppence for ANY pedigree, as much as I love all dogs.  They are inbred and unhealthy.  I think the best thing that could happen with any species is that a good shot of wolf is injected back in to put some health back into the line.  They did that with GSD's (which incidentally used to be called German Wolf Dogs, not German Shepherd Dogs), and to my mind it is about time they did it again before the breed becomes fatally flawed.

>They are inbred and unhealthy

Your opinion and not substanciated in any way shape size or forum :rolleyes:

No one has deprecated your DOG, rather they have said things about your claims ;)

I don't agree.  I feel you ARE being deprecatory about my dog - as I am, I suppose, about your pedigrees.  So just let's agree to differ.  I am getting a bit fed up by self-righteous comments along the lines of "I hope you have a licence".

Sorry but as your dog is a wolf hybrid you have to have a licence to keep within the laws of this country

Well I don't, and neither do the huge number of GSD owners.

<I have a 75% wolf cross which I keep in the UK as a normal dog.>

But GSDs are not 3/4 wolf are they ? so you should have a licence to be within the law

BTW I would appreciate an answer to my question which GSD lines from Horand(SV1) have had wolves used in their breeding programs You must know as you have said this is the case so come on tell me which lines

<They did that with GSD's (which incidentally used to be called German Wolf Dogs, not German Shepherd Dogs), >

OOOOOOps they were called Alsatian Wolfdogs after the WWI as there was so much anti german feelings They have never been called German Wolf Dogs in Germany nor anywhere else in the world & when exactly did they breed wolves with GSDs ?

Suggest you read a few more books before making more mistakes

Come to think of it the woman in South Yorks was breeding 8 years ago from her "wolf"dogs

There is of course the Saarloos wolf dog that was bred from GSDs & wolves, but in the last 100+ years there has been no introduction of wolf blood into the GSD

As I have said elsewhere, my husband will be giving you the facts.  I expect an apology if I am proved right.

Can I ask you a question?  Are you always this hostile to newcomers on this site?

>Can I ask you a question?  Are you always this hostile to newcomers on this site?

Only to those who are out to cause trouble. Genuine people are always welcomed.

Oh, so just by being controversial and trying to have an interesting debate, I'm out to cause trouble.  Trouble?  Trouble for who?  For you, because I have raised some uncomfortable points about inbreeding?

Well, unless you have a valid license for the dog - you are naive in the least for posting on a public forum. You could easily be traced.

Sorry, but your "75%" wolf would not get very far if he was not of the temperement to fight to the death to retain his "girls" or what was his! :D

I am sure this dog is a lovely pet but I can't imagine choosing to breed animals who are illegal and risk a life of imprisonment - also being involved in deceit? - allowing offspring to be sold as something they weren't although I am not convinced anyway ...

My animals are too precious to me, to get them involved in anything dodgy at all.

However I am still far from convinced that any of these so called wolf mixes have any wolf at all in them - too many lies. court cases, backtracking, lost paperwork, improper records kept etc etc etc ......... not aimed at the OP - just in general!

i just dont understand why anybody would want a wolf hybrid,am i missing something,guess its just a statice symbol .my advice would be dont even buy a dog

I looked into this "breed" on a government site and was horrified at what i read. Not only are they a cross between Huskys, Mals and GSD but they have been mixing other Spitz type breeds such as the Akita in there.

Think about it, the Sibe is a working dogs, needs lots of exercise and givent the opportunity will run off the lead for miles and miles and no comeback.
The Mal, as above more or less but bigger, The GSD another working breed, highly intelligent as the above two breeds and large. The Akita, large, *can* be dog agressive and will run and run and run if given the opportunity and not come back.
Add to these breeds' individual tendancies and needs and their breed associated conditions such as hip dysplacia, eye problems, thyroid problems, skin conditions etc etc...

What you are doing is paying up to £1000 for a medical write off!!!
I know people who breed them and their dogs are lovely but in and out of the vets like yo yo's. I would suggest researching a few breeds, choosing one better suited to you and your life styl, get to meet some, get on a waiting list and be safe int he knowlege of what you are buying.

Pyrenean Mountain dogs ? Maremmas?  where's the 'wolf' in them ? ( or is it just me ? - surely these are Mastiff types ? - as different from the wolf outline as you can get !!

Yvonne

There seems to be much debate about what the differences are between wolves and dogs and hybrids. I found an interesting article on this website, which I tend to agree with and seems closest to fact, although there are studies going on all the time to discover more. Site is:

http://wolfhybrid.us/html/b16.html

Now there is a reason why dogs are classifed into groups and suchlike, as different breeds have different traits, different hardiness to diseases, etc... In the case of pedigrees it is important to know what the traits are to then be able to determine what tpe of dog would be suitable for the owner and of course we have so many types now that we have plenty of choice. There are also mixed breed but your essentially gambling somewhat as all traits are then mixed, and whilst you may get a lovely dog that dog may be plauged with going to the vet constantly. but such is the way of domestication over the ages and ther is nothing wrong with having a mixed breed dog.

Now with wolves and dogs you are essentially playing with the genes in a precise manor and there are differences. yes tis fine if you have been around x breed /wolf /hybrid but to then introduce the hybrids or pure wolf into the chain and readily available to people that have no idea is playing with fire, look at what happened with the pitbull/mastiff, there are now counties in the US that forbid this breed/xbreed.

How many peole have owned a spitz breed to only give it back or for it to go to a home because the owners didnt realise what was involved?

I am not critising you or your dogs, but not everyone will take such good care of them as you do. But at present I do agree that those that have a mammal thats DNA is extremely close to the wild species should have a licence. The licence is there to protect the animal and make sure the owner is aware of the responsiblity if something were to happen.

I personally think that wolves should be left to roam free in the wild, here in the UK in scotland they are slwoly being introduced, I hope that they stay pure and wild. We have plenty of domesticated dogs to choose form now lets not be greedy.

spitzed x

>How many peole have owned a spitz breed to only give it back or for it to go to a home because the owners didnt realise what was involved?

IMHO, this is the fault of the breeders initially. Part of the process of selling pups should include finsing out how much the prospective owner actually knows about the breed they are after rather than just handing the pup over for the money

(Part of which I covered in my email to you the other day ;) )

Indeed and a very good email it was, plenty of information, it made me smile. Everyone should be reminded constantly, as it is so important and some people just aren't listening or refuse to.

spitzed x

Ain't that the truth :rolleyes:

Yes, it is good news about wolves being reintroduced to Scotland.  And I truly believe like you that wolves belong in the wild.  However, I chose to try and buy a wolf cross because I didn't want an unhealthy pedigree.  It wasn't easy, it took years of research and then patience to be trusted enough by the breeder to be allowed to purchase one of these beautiful animals.  The reason she was so cautious is for the very reason that, as you say, so many wolfdogs - mainly in the States - have ended up in the wrong hands being badly treated.  They are not easy, as I have already stated.  You have to "roll with the punches".  You cannot be uptight about holes appearing in your best flowerbed, and your knickers being taken from the laundry bin and then three days later being regurgitated.  Yes, I know, we are very lucky he didn't die - he ate god knows how many socks and knickers before we eventually managed to find a laundry basket that he couldn't remove the lid from!  I shall now doubtless be castigated by Moon Maiden for being such a jolly rotten and bad owner, but never mind, such is life.

I would never take, even if I could, a wild wolf and try and raise it as a dog.  Not because I don't believe it is possible, but because a wolf belongs in the wild, as you say.  Do you know the Wolf Trust in Reading?  Their sanctuary is well worth a visit.  They have a website which you can easily find on Google.

<I shall now doubtless be castigated by Moon Maiden for being such a jolly rotten and bad owner, but never mind, such is life.> What ?????? When did I say you were a bad owner ?

All I want to know is which bloodlines in GSDs from Horand (SV1)that have wolf introduced into them & to correct your error re true monochid dogs & the number of testicles they have persay( mistake 99 % of people including vets make)

<Loners>

If this is true re cats why do some Lions(not all) live in prides ? Answers on postcards as after all this is a dog forum ;)

Your not the lady by any chance who I met in our field who castigated me for bringing my dog out (to socialise him) before he had his injections?  We live in the middle of nowhere, so I decided that socialisation was more important than the small risk he ran of picking up summat nasty.  You remind me of her

<Your not the lady by any chance who I met in our field who castigated me for bringing my dog out (to socialise him) before he had his injections>who is that aimed at certainly not me

Hubby's back from pub.  This is what he has dug out for me:

Reference:  Boitani 1982 "Wolf Management in Intensively Used Areas of Italy (publication:  "Wolves of the World)

"All dogs that have been genetically studied using mitochondrial (spelling??) RNA studies originated from 4 wolf bitches.  The genetic differences between dogs and wolves are in fact on average less than the differences between the various dog breeds.  Dogs have continued to breed with wolves since their origins without man's intervention".

and

Wolves and dogs are the same species and are identical in over 99.8% of their DNA sequence (Wayne 1993 "Molecular Evolution of the Dog Family - Trends in Genetics 9:218-24).  The vast majority of DNA is identical between wolves and dogs therefore.  No scientific evidence has ever been published or presented to suggest that wolfdogs are more problematic in any way than other dogs.

Good stuff, eh?

& the GSD lines from Horand(SV1)onwards  that have wolves in their breeding ?

You are one impatient person!  Give the poor man a chance!  He's had a few sherbets, so is a bit incomprehensible!

:-D can visualise this poor bloke having to sort out all these quotes with his wife faffing about in the background, he he he. (No offence meant to anyone :-) ) P.s can I see a photo of your wolf/dog please? I am genuinely curious.

You've got it in one Tiger Lily!  And no, sorry, but you can't have a picture.  After the hostile postings on this site about licences etc. I wouldn't dare.  He is so magnificent you couldn't fail to recognise him if you had already met him, and there are pictures of him on various sites on the internet.

Sorry!

>Sorry!

I bet you are! Cos you've been well sussed! :D :D

:p :p :p

I'm still waiting patiently for a response to my question on the other thread :)

Well  as you have done all the research the post Horand(SV1)lines should stick in your mind as you know so much about GSDs

Only one thing with the wolf blood would some the yellow eyes, finer heads, longer legs,  & wolf coat all totally wrong for GSDs & they would take a hell of a lot of breeding out

I'm still waiting for my apology.

Why on earth should you want to breed out such magnificent characteristics.  This smacks to me of everything I hate about pedigree dogs.  Not breeding from dalamtians with brown spots, only black spots, so now the breed is so inbred that it is probably fatally flawed (I was told this by a dalmatian owner - I know nothing about the breed personally, except that they are adorable dogs and deserve better).  To breed purely on the grounds of looks is the modern way, and it is causing these problems in our pedigrees.  It is the reason that great danes have tiny hearts and die of heart attacks if they run too much.  To think that by breeding only from less affected stock (ie less or no problems can somehow miraculously reduce genetic defaults) is a myth based on a misunderstanding of genetics.

Why is a wolf coat totally wrong for GSD's when, less than 100 years ago, they were bred from wolves?  Why are yellow eyes wrong?  I just cannot understand this.  Why are we as a species so bloody arrogant that we think we know better than thousands of years of evolution?  It just beggers belief.

AND I am still waiting for my apology.

I never said you did - I merely said "doubtless" I would probably be castigated by you for allowing Mr W to eat the underwear - because you have done nothing but be hostile towards me from the start.  Incidentally, does anyone else experience this with their entire males?

Hubby can't find his paperwork (not surprising really judging by the state he's in).  Got to go and help daughter with her hair, but I will return - hopefully to a more friendly reception.  Watch this space!

Mr W says howls and goodnight to one and all!

As long as, when you return, you don't immediately verbally attack two particular breeds and ALL pedigree dogs without good back up rather than just the hearsay from your vet ;)

Fair do's.  I am passionate about my beliefs. 

I will say though that I believe I HAVE backed up my statements re the GSD.  I have answered Moonmaiden (and I am STILL waiting for my apology) - perhaps it will have come by the time I finish typing this.

Don't get me wrong - I love GSD's - they are probably one of the closest breeds to the wolf we have.  We have one next door whom I adore.  He kisses me over the fence every morning and he is so gorgeous.  He and my boy are such chums - two entire males who have ever only had "words" once - no harm done, just a bit of noise and a misunderstanding over a particularly attractive stick!

In the first decade of 1900, Von Stephanitz wrote a book (in German) about his loyal hard working dogs called "The German Shepherd in Word and Picture" in which he documents the above heritage and pleas to the breeders not "to add more wolf blood" into his dogs as he had ALREADY found the IDEAL combination. In 1923, an American version was translated VERBATIM. Not many copies were printed and few still exist. In 1932, an 8th Enlarged and 'Revised' (read sanitized) version was financed by English speaking 'interests'. All references to the positive wolf heritage were removed and most GSD fanciers have been denying RECENT wolf heritage ever since.

Herr Strebel is quoted in "The Alsatian Wolf-Dog", by G. Horowitz as saying that he "has seen how easily a wolf can step into the pedigree of Alsatians without causing all those terrible phenomena which are considered to be the results of crossing with a wolf". He gives an example of a hybrid wolf (whose granddam was a wolf) who "absolutely had the temperament of a Sheepdog; who was obedient and faithful, and the pet of the house" (page 14, "Concerning the Wolf Cross"). He goes on to state that this is a striking example of how quickly all trace of wolf's blood is lost in a 'domesticated' breed.

In 1912, Monsieur Henry Sodenkamp wrote in the Belgian Journal, Chasse et Peche (The Chase and Hunt), that it is the French opinion that "THE WOLF LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE ALSATIAN". (The breed was partially created in Alsace, France).

Mores Plieningen, SZ 159, who was bred to the first Stud dog, Horand Von Grafath (previously known as Hektor) and whose blood is said to be in the pedigree of every GSD in the world today, was the granddaughter of a wolf at the Stuttgart Zoo/Gardens. Their son, Hektor Von Schwaben, SZ #13, figured heavily in the early GSD line. (Captain Von Stephanitz bought Hektor Liksrhein and renamed him Horand Von Grafath, after his kennel name.)

I think this makes it pretty clear, don't you, that GSD's LESS THAN 100 YEARS AGO were bred with wolves.  This is the same for numerous other breeds including the Japanese Akita, the Maremma, the Belgian Shepherd, the Pyrenean Mountain Dog, the Bernese and more too numerous to mention.

I think you owe me that apology.

Well, digging the flowerbed and eating socks, underwear and goodness knows what else PROVES he is more wolf than domestic dog...what pedigree dog would do that??? :D